Rome vs Melchizedek

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bbyrd009

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Mungo said:
What a pathetic response. You asked for Easter in the Bible and I gave you Easter in the Bible. In the KJV too! A Protestant translation not a Catholic one.

Of course the English word Easter in not in the original Greek, Why would you expect it to be?

Do you realise that the word 'Easter' is a peculiarity of English (and German from whence it came).

Most languages use a word that comes from the Hebrew/Greek Pascha (e.g. Albaina, Finnish, Italian. Latin, Portuguese, Scottish, Welsh, and many more).

Other languages use a word based on Resurrection (e.g. Bosnian Chinese, Korean and others).
please see the post above. If you have Easter in your "Bible," then you have a corrupted Bible, Mungo, it is as simple as that.
Call me pathetic if it makes you feel better or whatever, i forgive you, but this does not change the truth; there is no "Easter" in Scripture, until you put it in there.


We certainly have copious enough warnings about scribes, how do you think these should be applied?
And, coloring and rolling eggs, and buying bunnies, and whatever other fertility rites, is peculiar to English and German? lol, ok.
Whaddya know, something new under the sun :)
 

Mungo

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bbyrd009 said:
please see the post above. If you have Easter in your "Bible," then you have a corrupted Bible, Mungo, it is as simple as that.
Call me pathetic if it makes you feel better or whatever, i forgive you, but this does not change the truth; there is no "Easter" in Scripture, until you put it in there.


We certainly have copious enough warnings about scribes, how do you think these should be applied?
And, coloring and rolling eggs, and buying bunnies, and whatever other fertility rites, is peculiar to English and German? lol, ok.
Whaddya know, something new under the sun :)
I don't know what pagan practices you get up to, but in the Catholic Church Easter it a time for remembering and celebrating what Jesus did for us.

There are three services - The Mass of the Lord's supper on Thursday, the Passion on Good Friday and the Mass of the Resurrection on Saturday evening. Or, perhaps better expressed as one service spread over three days. No egg colouring and rolling, no bunnies. It is the most important season in the Church's calendar.

And I suggested the word Easter is peculiar to English and German. I think you deliberately pretend to misunderstand just to be provocative and insulting.

You said earlier you are not interested in discussing doctrine. So what are you here for - to troll and flame?
 

tom55

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Stranger said:
Yes. Once a person has accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour, have believed on Jesus Christ as the Son of God, however you want to word it, they are declared righteous by God and have eternal life. Never to be taken away.

Stranger
Colossians: IF you continue in the faith, grounded and settled and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard.

I Corinthians: Now I make known unto you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand; By which you are saved, IF you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.

Matthew 6:15: Jesus tells us “IF you do not forgive men, neither will your heavenly Father forgive you your offenses.”

Galatians: You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Romans 11: Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

I could give many more examples from scripture and the early Church Fathers. Scripture CLEARLY says you are wrong.
 

bbyrd009

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Mungo said:
I don't know what pagan practices you get up to, but in the Catholic Church Easter it a time for remembering and celebrating what Jesus did for us.

There are three services - The Mass of the Lord's supper on Thursday, the Passion on Good Friday and the Mass of the Resurrection on Saturday evening. Or, perhaps better expressed as one service spread over three days. No egg colouring and rolling, no bunnies. It is the most important season in the Church's calendar.

And I suggested the word Easter is peculiar to English and German. I think you deliberately pretend to misunderstand just to be provocative and insulting.

You said earlier you are not interested in discussing doctrine. So what are you here for - to troll and flame?
hey, i am not the one accepting the words of scribes, that are obviously not in Scripture, with all due respect. If you find something in my "misunderstanding" that is not accurate, then point it out. Christ is not in your Easter, sorry--Christ is our Passover, regardless of what you might have been led to believe. It is Easter that is insulting, and it is Easter that you cannot find in uncorrupted Scripture, neverminding that you got no other Witness anyway. Perhaps you should refrain here, or send us your "father" to debate with? I mean no offense, but you seem intent upon making up your own facts.
 

Stranger

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tom55 said:
Colossians: IF you continue in the faith, grounded and settled and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard.

I Corinthians: Now I make known unto you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand; By which you are saved, IF you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.

Matthew 6:15: Jesus tells us “IF you do not forgive men, neither will your heavenly Father forgive you your offenses.”

Galatians: You are severed from Christ, you who would be justifiedby the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Romans 11: Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

I could give many more examples from scripture and the early Church Fathers. Scripture CLEARLY says you are wrong.
Concerning Matt. 6:15, first of all, Matt. 5-7 does not describe the rules or law the Church is under. They are the laws of the 'kingdom'.

Second of all, it doesn't say the believers in the kingdom will lose their salvation. It says they won't be forgiven if they don't forgive. In the daily walk of the believer he sins and comes to God for forgiveness. But he holds anger against another for some wrong done to him and doesn't forgive him. God will not forgive his sin as a result. Instead will bring judgement against that sin. Doesn't mean he loses his salvation.

Well, if you got more that 'clearly' say so, be sure and give the chapter and verse.

Stranger
 

BreadOfLife

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Stranger said:
No, Scripture says faith is simply believing. (Ehp.2:8-9). Which you fail to harmonize with your 'loss of salvation due to no works' theory.

Yes, I have read (James 2:19-20). "Faith without works is dead." Which is true. Without the works, the faith that one has is dead. It's inoperative. It doesn't mean the believer didn't exercise true faith in Christ and was born-again and righteousness imputed to him. It does mean, for some reason, he is not walking in that faith, and thus there are no works to prove his faith, meaning his faith is dead. There is no life to it. You have Christians with strong faith, and Christians with weak faith, and Christians whose faith is dead. But they believed in Christ in the beginning and were born-again and saved.

Oh, the demons believe. But, it doesn't matter if the demons believe because salvation is not offered to them. It doesn't matter if they do good works, because salvation is not offered to them. In other words, a demon could believe and do good works and still not be saved. You see. It's not a question of a loss of salvation. It's a question of the believers faith being a living faith. If a believer says he has faith but has no works, then his faith is not an active faith and before men there is doubt. Doesn't mean he isn't saved.

So, how do you harmonize your loss of salvation Scriptures with (Eph. 2:8-9)?

Stranger
No - YOU don't get to ask me another question until you answer MINE. I asked you a question and you dodged it, so here it is again:

You falsely assert that "Faith" is simply "Believing" and nothing else.
James 2:19 explicitly states that even the DEMONS believe and tremble.
Do THEY have faith?
Are they SAVED by that faith??


Oh, what the heck - I'll answer your question - but I expect YOU to answer the one I just asked.
NOWHERE does Ehp. 2:8-9 say that faith is simply "believing." True faith demands our cooperation - and I'll prove it with Scripture:

Matt. 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and YOU WERE NOT WILLING.

Jesus just told Jerusalem that it was the will of GOD to gather them together but he COULDN'T because they WOULDN'T.

Now - answer MY question . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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Stranger said:
Yes. Once a person has accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour, have believed on Jesus Christ as the Son of God, however you want to word it, they are declared righteous by God and have eternal life. Never to be taken away.

Stranger
That's not what the BIBLE says . . .

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into
sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.
 
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BreadOfLife

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bbyrd009 said:
sorry, but it is you that brought up "resurrection" in this context, which is not indicated in Acts 12:4 as near as i can see?
http://biblehub.com/lexicon/acts/12-4.htm
WHAT are you talking about??
I was responding to YOUR claim that Easter is not found in Scripture.

Can you simply address that and stop going on irrelevant tangents?
 

tom55

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Stranger said:
Concerning Matt. 6:15, first of all, Matt. 5-7 does not describe the rules or law the Church is under. They are the laws of the 'kingdom'.

Second of all, it doesn't say the believers in the kingdom will lose their salvation. It says they won't be forgiven if they don't forgive. In the daily walk of the believer he sins and comes to God for forgiveness. But he holds anger against another for some wrong done to him and doesn't forgive him. God will not forgive his sin as a result. Instead will bring judgement against that sin. Doesn't mean he loses his salvation.

Well, if you got more that 'clearly' say so, be sure and give the chapter and verse.

Stranger
Colossians: he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard

Timothy: IF we endure, we will also reign with him; IF we deny him, he also will deny us

At some point you need to do your own research and learn the Truth of scripture.

Since you are saved I guess you will never sin again therefor you will never loose your salvation. Good Job Saint Stranger :)
 

bbyrd009

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BreadOfLife said:
WHAT are you talking about??
I was responding to YOUR claim that Easter is not found in Scripture.

Can you simply address that and stop going on irrelevant tangents?
well, that irrelevant tangent is the relevant verse in the original though, see; in the Lexicon. So wadr i am struggling here to conceive of how i might respond to you or Mungo's more or less blatant attacks in a frame of "tell the truth in love." I'm frankly not sure where the line is. Easter, with its accompanying fertility rites, obviously obscures Passover, and i recognize that neither of you can respond to the truth that Easter is not in the Book, not anywhere, our corrupted cover stories that pass as "translations" notwithstanding. But i also see that you bear the burden of a lot of indoctrination, and i would not condemn anyone who chose to observe fertility rites, either. What do i care, if you are taking care of widows and orphans? Unfortunately, in my experience, the two usually do not coincide; however, in a forum, all we can really observe or comment on is one's theory--their practice is hidden.

But Passover is not a doctrine, as has been forwarded by M, at least imo. Not some concept that one can just replace with a more convenient word when it suits them, tra-la.

Your response to my claim is void, absent some Scripture to make the connection, and then you have the weight of "thinks to change times and days" to overcome, which that may also have been scribed out of a D-R "Bible," i dunno.
 

BreadOfLife

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bbyrd009 said:
well, that irrelevant tangent is the relevant verse in the original though, see; in the Lexicon. So wadr i am struggling here to conceive of how i might respond to you or Mungo's more or less blatant attacks in a frame of "tell the truth in love." I'm frankly not sure where the line is. Easter, with its accompanying fertility rites, obviously obscures Passover, and i recognize that neither of you can respond to the truth that Easter is not in the Book, not anywhere, our corrupted cover stories that pass as "translations" notwithstanding. But i also see that you bear the burden of a lot of indoctrination, and i would not condemn anyone who chose to observe fertility rites, either. What do i care, if you are taking care of widows and orphans? Unfortunately, in my experience, the two usually do not coincide; however, in a forum, all we can really observe or comment on is one's theory--their practice is hidden.

But Passover is not a doctrine, as has been forwarded by M, at least imo. Not some concept that one can just replace with a more convenient word when it suits them, tra-la.

Your response to my claim is void, absent some Scripture to make the connection, and then you have the weight of "thinks to change times and days" to overcome, which that may also have been scribed out of a D-R "Bible," i dunno.
So, it's the WORD "Easter" that you have a problem with??
To what "fertility rites" are you referring?? The Catholic Church engages in "fertility rites"?? Is that what you're saying??

Anyway - if a WORD is not in the Bible - this doesn't meant that it is not taught.
The word "Incarnation" is not in the Bible.
The doctrine IS taught.in the Bible.

The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible.
The doctrine IS taught.in the Bible.

The word "Bible" is not in the Bible.
The word came AFTER the compilation of the Canon but it doesn't mean that it is "evil".
 

Stranger

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BreadOfLife said:
No - YOU don't get to ask me another question until you answer MINE. I asked you a question and you dodged it, so here it is again:

You falsely assert that "Faith" is simply "Believing" and nothing else.
James 2:19 explicitly states that even the DEMONS believe and tremble.
Do THEY have faith?
Are they SAVED by that faith??


Oh, what the heck - I'll answer your question - but I expect YOU to answer the one I just asked.
NOWHERE does Ehp. 2:8-9 say that faith is simply "believing." True faith demands our cooperation - and I'll prove it with Scripture:

Matt. 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and YOU WERE NOT WILLING.

Jesus just told Jerusalem that it was the will of GOD to gather them together but he COULDN'T because they WOULDN'T.

Now - answer MY question . . .
I did answer your question. You just didn't like it. Demons are not saved by faith or works. Re-read.

(Eph. 2-9) says that salvation is by faith alone. And that is what I am saying.

Matt. 23:37 says nothing about faith and salvation.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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BreadOfLife said:
That's not what the BIBLE says . . .

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into
sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.
Harmonize the verses you gave with (Eph. 2:8-9).

Then I will address your verses.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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tom55 said:
Colossians: he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard

Timothy: IF we endure, we will also reign with him; IF we deny him, he also will deny us

At some point you need to do your own research and learn the Truth of scripture.

Since you are saved I guess you will never sin again therefor you will never loose your salvation. Good Job Saint Stranger :)
Chapter and verse.

Stranger
 

BreadOfLife

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Stranger said:
I did answer your question. You just didn't like it. Demons are not saved by faith or works. Re-read.

(Eph. 2-9) says that salvation is by faith alone. And that is what I am saying.

Matt. 23:37 says nothing about faith and salvation.

Stranger
According to YOUR assertion that "Faith" is simply "believing" - the Demons that James mentions in James 2:19 have faith.
Either they DO have faith and you are right - or they DON'T have faith and you are wrong.

The Bible is clear that true faith takes our cooperation. - and that's is what Matt. 23:37 is all about.

Finally - Eph. 2-9 says that salvation is by faith - but it doesn't say that faith is simply "believing."
That is the false doctrine of "Easy-Believeism".
 

Stranger

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BreadOfLife said:
According to YOUR assertion that "Faith" is simply "believing" - the Demons that James mentions in James 2:19 have faith.
Either they DO have faith and you are right - or they DON'T have faith and you are wrong.

The Bible is clear that true faith takes our cooperation. - and that's is what Matt. 23:37 is all about.

Finally - Eph. 2-9 says that salvation is by faith - but it doesn't say that faith is simply "believing."
That is the false doctrine of "Easy-Believeism".
According to my assertion, demons can believe or have faith all they want, and are not saved. According to my assertion, demons can believe and do good works, and are not saved. It is not a question of their being saved.

Again, Matt. 23:37 says nothing about faith and salvation.

There is no such thing as 'easy believeism' . You believe or you don't. You can't believe something you don't believe.

Stranger
 

epostle1

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Stranger said:
I did answer your question. You just didn't like it. Demons are not saved by faith or works. Re-read.
That's not an answer, it's a cop out. The demons believe. Period. That is the point. Their belief does them no good, they tremble. But they believe. No one said they were saved, you're being silly.
(Eph. 2-9) says that salvation is by faith alone. And that is what I am saying.
Yea, I know that is what you are saying. Find a translation where Eph. 2-9 says "faith alone". It doesn't exist.
Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.

If you can add words to scripture does that mean anybody can add whatever word they want?
Matt. 23:37 says nothing about faith and salvation.
Wrong again. It's a metaphor on the children of Jerusalem who were not willing to be gathered.
 

epostle1

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Stranger said:
Harmonize the verses you gave with (Eph. 2:8-9).

Then I will address your verses.

Stranger
Since when have you ever "harmonized" anything that didn't add words that were never there?
 

Stranger

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kepha31 said:
Since when have you ever "harmonized" anything that didn't add words that were never there?
I'm not sure what you are asking. To 'harmonize' means to explain this verse in light of another verse.

Stranger
 

BreadOfLife

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Stranger said:
According to my assertion, demons can believe or have faith all they want, and are not saved. According to my assertion, demons can believe and do good works, and are not saved. It is not a question of their being saved.

Again, Matt. 23:37 says nothing about faith and salvation.

There is no such thing as 'easy believeism' . You believe or you don't. You can't believe something you don't believe.

Stranger
And there you go again dodging the question.

I asked you plainly:
Do the demons in James 2:19 have faith in God??

According to YOU faith is simply believing - but you have YET to provide a verse that supports this false notion.
You keep throwing Eph. 2-9 out there which says that salvation is by faith - but it doesn't say that faith is simply "believing." Nor, does it say "Faith alone".

I believe that Barack Obama was our president for 8 years - but I never had faith in him.
Simply believing in something is NOT faith.


As for Matt. 23:37 - it has everything to do with faith and salvation.
If it doesn't - can you explain to me what it DOES mean??