Rome vs Melchizedek

[BreadOfLife]

well, are "the dead" strictly physically dead, in God's eyes, or can one be "the walking dead," iow spiritually dead, right now, today, which is all God cares about imo. Although i did not mean to refer to the resurrection, this is applicable there, too, imo. You do not know where you came from, or where you are going, and anyone who tells you different is deceived.

As usual - you dodged the question.
YOU said Easter was not in Scripture - so I ask you again:
The Resurrection is NOT in Scripture??

 

[BreadOfLife]

The 'works' attributed to Abraham in (James 2:24) occur long after his initial salvation.(Gen.22:1-13) Righteousness was already imputed to him. (Gen.15:6) His works were a product or fulfillment of his salvation. They played no role in his being declared righteous by God. (James 2:23)

(Eph. 2:8-9) " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." In other words, faith alone.

So, how do you harmonize your verses which say teach that one can lose their salvation with that?

Stranger

Easy.
Faith is not simply believing. Faith, as James illustrates in great detail, is believing AND obeying.

You cannot have true faith without works - and works are worthless without believing.
It's not faith AND works. They are both part of the SAME thing.

 

[bbyrd009]

As usual - you dodged the question.
YOU said Easter was not in Scripture - so I ask you again:
The Resurrection is NOT in Scripture??

two diff things, sorry. Passover is not resurrection, and Easter is nowhere in Scripture.

 

[Stranger]

Easy.
Faith is not simply believing. Faith, as James illustrates in great detail, is believing AND obeying.

You cannot have true faith without works - and works are worthless without believing.
It's not faith AND works. They are both part of the SAME thing.

Actually, it is. Simply believing. And James illustrates that because he is not talking about the faith that results in being declared righteous before God. Something you failed to address.

You simply give me an 'opinion'. I gave you Scripture which you could not 'harmonize'.

Stranger

 

[epostle1]

This is typical of your straw man stuff Webers_Home. You put out a lot of garbage about what the Catholic Church teaches and then try to knock that down. Unfortunately there are people here that will swallow this junk.

Readers, please note that Webers_Home provides no evidence for these claims - no quotes from the Catechism, no quotes from major Council documents, no quotes from major Papal documents.

Webers_Home is a full time Catholic basher, posting on several forums under different names. His constant polemics don't hold water. Sometimes he gives quotes, but grossly out of context. He has a psychotic hatred for the Catholic Church, he is the Jack Chick for his brand of Calvinism. Unfortunately there are people here that will swallow his junk. Good point.

 

[Mungo]

"two diff things, sorry. Passover is not resurrection, and Easter is nowhere in Scripture."

bbyrd009 is one of those people who believes a particular English word has to be in scripture rather than the concepts that the word expresses. So he probably doesn't believe in the Trinity or the Incarnation.

But for bbyrd009:
[SIZE=12pt]"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And when he had apprehended him, he put him[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] in prison, and delivered [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]him[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](Acts 12:4 - KJV)[/SIZE]

 

[bbyrd009]

"two diff things, sorry. Passover is not resurrection, and Easter is nowhere in Scripture."

bbyrd009 is one of those people who believes a particular English word has to be in scripture rather than the concepts that the word expresses. So he probably doesn't believe in the Trinity or the Incarnation.

But for bbyrd009:
[SIZE=12pt]"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And when he had apprehended him, he put him[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] in prison, and delivered [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]him[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](Acts 12:4 - KJV)[/SIZE]

when you put down the broom, though, and pick up a shovel, you will see that "Easter" is not in the original, but was installed by your scribes. Just ask Lex--or read any other translation--just sweeping a little harder reveals the truth, iow. Now, you can put this down to English translation if you like, i can't stop you; but we obviously have the word "Passover," in English, so i think you are on a fool's errand there, sorry.

 

[BreadOfLife]

two diff things, sorry. Passover is not resurrection, and Easter is nowhere in Scripture.

Who said the Passover was the Resurrection??

I'll ask you a THIRD time:
The Resurrection is NOT in Scripture?? Are you sure about that??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Actually, it is. Simply believing. And James illustrates that because he is not talking about the faith that results in being declared righteous before God. Something you failed to address.

You simply give me an 'opinion'. I gave you Scripture which you could not 'harmonize'.

Stranger

So, YOU say that faith is simply "believing" and that James proves it??
Did you read verse 19 of that chapter?? James states that even the DEMONS believe (James 2:19).

Are they saved??
Do they have faith??

 

[tom55]

The 'works' attributed to Abraham in (James 2:24) occur long after his initial salvation.(Gen.22:1-13) Righteousness was already imputed to him. (Gen.15:6) His works were a product or fulfillment of his salvation. They played no role in his being declared righteous by God. (James 2:23)

(Eph. 2:8-9) " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." In other words, faith alone.

So, how do you harmonize your verses which say teach that one can lose their salvation with that?

Stranger

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. James

For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Matthew 16:27

God who will render to every man according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; Romans

the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.....Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Revelations

Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, 1 Peter 3:21

Clement of Rome who was consecrated by Peter: Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words....

Scripture and the earliest writing from a man who walked and talked with Peter (and probably Paul) teach completely OPPOSITE of what you believe.

 

[Stranger]

So, YOU say that faith is simply "believing" and that James proves it??
Did you read verse 19 of that chapter?? James states that even the DEMONS believe (James 2:19).

Are they saved??
Do they have faith??

No, Scripture says faith is simply believing. (Ehp.2:8-9). Which you fail to harmonize with your 'loss of salvation due to no works' theory.

Yes, I have read (James 2:19-20). "Faith without works is dead." Which is true. Without the works, the faith that one has is dead. It's inoperative. It doesn't mean the believer didn't exercise true faith in Christ and was born-again and righteousness imputed to him. It does mean, for some reason, he is not walking in that faith, and thus there are no works to prove his faith, meaning his faith is dead. There is no life to it. You have Christians with strong faith, and Christians with weak faith, and Christians whose faith is dead. But they believed in Christ in the beginning and were born-again and saved.

Oh, the demons believe. But, it doesn't matter if the demons believe because salvation is not offered to them. It doesn't matter if they do good works, because salvation is not offered to them. In other words, a demon could believe and do good works and still not be saved. You see. It's not a question of a loss of salvation. It's a question of the believers faith being a living faith. If a believer says he has faith but has no works, then his faith is not an active faith and before men there is doubt. Doesn't mean he isn't saved.

So, how do you harmonize your loss of salvation Scriptures with (Eph. 2:8-9)?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

The only time the words FAITH ALONE are found together in the bible is in James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

That seems opposite of what you are saying!!

No, what you are saying is that (Eph.2:8-9) seems opposite of what you are saying.

So, what do you do? How do you explain it? Harmonize it? You don't. You just believe the Scriptures that appear to teach that the believer can lose his or her salvation.

Stranger

 

[epostle1]

The 'works' attributed to Abraham in (James 2:24) occur long after his initial salvation.(Gen.22:1-13) Righteousness was already imputed to him. (Gen.15:6) His works were a product or fulfillment of his salvation. They played no role in his being declared righteous by God. (James 2:23)

Gen. 12:1-4 – Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Abram is justified by his faith in God. Heb. 11:8-10 confirms Abraham's justification occurred here, before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. Abraham's justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness.

Gen. 14:19, 22-23 - Abram is also justified here, by being blessed by the priest-king Melchizedek. Melchizedek calls Abram blessed and Abram gives him a tenth of everything.

Gen. 15:6 – Abram is further justified here, as God promises him that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Because the Scripture says, “He believed the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness,” Protestants often say this was Abram’s initial justification, and cite Rom 4:2 to prove Abram was justified by his faith. Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves.

Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is a+n on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works.

Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God
(Eph. 2:8-9) " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." In other words, faith alone.

In other words, you're wrong.

Actually, it is. Simply believing. And James illustrates that because he is not talking about the faith that results in being declared righteous before God. Something you failed to address.

You simply give me an 'opinion'. I gave you Scripture which you could not 'harmonize'.

Stranger

A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24. That is not an opinion.

The 'works' attributed to Abraham in (James 2:24) occur long after his initial salvation.(Gen.22:1-13) Righteousness was already imputed to him. (Gen.15:6) His works were a product or fulfillment of his salvation. They played no role in his being declared righteous by God. (James 2:23)

See above.
(Eph. 2:8-9) " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." In other words, faith alone.

In other words, you are adding "alone"" to where it never belonged, and continue to confuse works of the law ("ergon nomou" ) with good works. ( "ergois agathois.") They are entirely different words with different meanings.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.


Catholics have more assurance of salvation that those who espouse “once saved, always saved.” This is because the only distinction between a true Christian and a superficial Christian is that the superficial Christian will not persevere to the end – but this is something a Christian cannot know during his life, and this necessarily imposes uncertainty upon him until the end. For Catholics, we know that salvation is ours to lose. For “once saved, always saved” Protestants, they don’t even know whether it is theirs to begin with.

 

[tom55]

No, what you are saying is that (Eph.2:8-9) seems opposite of what you are saying.

So, what do you do? How do you explain it? Harmonize it? You don't. You just believe the Scriptures that appear to teach that the believer can lose his or her salvation.

Stranger

Are you a OSAS believer??

 

[Stranger]

Are you a OSAS believer??

Yes. Once a person has accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour, have believed on Jesus Christ as the Son of God, however you want to word it, they are declared righteous by God and have eternal life. Never to be taken away.

Stranger

 

[epostle1]

No, what you are saying is that (Eph.2:8-9) seems opposite of what you are saying.

So, what do you do? How do you explain it? Harmonize it? You don't. You just believe the Scriptures that appear to teach that the believer can lose his or her salvation.

Stranger

Heb. 11:6 - faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works. Also, this gratuitous gift of faith from God also includes the grace of hope and love the moment the person is justified.

Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace. But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.

Yes. Once a person has accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour, have believed on Jesus Christ as the Son of God, however you want to word it, they are declared righteous by God and have eternal life. Never to be taken away.

Where in Scripture does it say no one has the free will to turn away?

 

[Stranger]

kepha31

(Eph.2:8-9) says nothing about faith must come first. It says very clearly that "....by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

You need to pay attention. (James 2:24) is not speaking of when the believer is declared righteous by God through his faith. See my post #40.

What Scripture says the believer has the free will to annul what God has done for him in declaring him righteous and an heir of eternal life?

Stranger

 

[epostle1]

kepha31

(Eph.2:8-9) says nothing about faith must come first. It says very clearly that "....by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

You need to pay attention. (James 2:24) is not speaking of when the believer is declared righteous by God through his faith. See my post #40.

I demolished your post #40 in post #53. Since you didn't grasp a single word in post #56, I will elaborate. Where in Eph.2:8-9 does it say "faith alone"? Again, it's not talking about good works, but works of the law. They are not the same.

Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19.

Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

James 1:22-25 - it's the "doers" who are justified, not the hearers. Justification is based on what we do, which means “works.” Notice that there is nothing about “false faith.” The hearers may have faith, but they need to accompany their faith by works, or they will not be justified. See also Rom. 2:13.

James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.

James 2:15-17 - here are the examples of the "works" to which James is referring - corporal works of mercy (giving food and shelter to those in need).
James 1:27 - another example of "works" is visiting orphans and widows in their affliction. Otherwise, if they do not perform these good works, their religion is in vain.
James 2:25 - another example of "works" is when Rahab assisted the spies in their escape. Good works increase our justification and perfect our faith.
Joshua 2:9-11 - Rahab's fellow citizens had faith in God, but in Joshua 6:22-25, Rahab alone acted and was saved. This is faith in action.

Rom. 2:13 – for it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2, not “works of the law” in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16; 3:2,5,10; and Eph. 2:8-9. The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).

Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.

Phil. 4:17 – Paul says “I seek the fruit which increases to your credit.” Fruits (good works) increase our justification. Paul says these works increase our “credit,” which is also called “merit.” These merits bring forth more graces from God, furthering increasing our justification as we are so disposed. But the fruits, works, and merits are all borne from God’s unmerited and undeserved mercy won for us by Jesus Christ.

Psalm 51:1-2 - O God, blot out my transgressions, wash me thoroughly from my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin. This cleansing requires an inner change of heart. Many Protestants believe that we are so depraved that God only covers our sins up by declaring us righteous (imputing Christ’s righteousness to us). The Catholic (and Scriptural view), however, is that God is powerful enough to blot out our sins and remove them. The view that God just declares us righteous by “covering us up,” denigrates the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives, who continues the work of Christ through His work of justification and sanctification (infusing His grace into souls and changing the inner person).

What Scripture says the believer has the free will to annul what God has done for him in declaring him righteous and an heir of eternal life?

You need a proof text showing we have free will? Do you need a proof text when you have to go the the bathroom?

 

[Mungo]

when you put down the broom, though, and pick up a shovel, you will see that "Easter" is not in the original, but was installed by your scribes. Just ask Lex--or read any other translation--just sweeping a little harder reveals the truth, iow. Now, you can put this down to English translation if you like, i can't stop you; but we obviously have the word "Passover," in English, so i think you are on a fool's errand there, sorry.

What a pathetic response. You asked for Easter in the Bible and I gave you Easter in the Bible. In the KJV too! A Protestant translation not a Catholic one.

Of course the English word Easter in not in the original Greek, Why would you expect it to be?

Do you realise that the word 'Easter' is a peculiarity of English (and German from whence it came).

Most languages use a word that comes from the Hebrew/Greek Pascha (e.g. Albaina, Finnish, Italian. Latin, Portuguese, Scottish, Welsh, and many more).

Other languages use a word based on Resurrection (e.g. Bosnian Chinese, Korean and others).

 

[bbyrd009]

Who said the Passover was the Resurrection??

I'll ask you a THIRD time:
The Resurrection is NOT in Scripture?? Are you sure about that??

sorry, but it is you that brought up "resurrection" in this context, which is not indicated in Acts 12:4 as near as i can see?
http://biblehub.com/lexicon/acts/12-4.htm