Rules of interpretation for Premill

[rockytopva]

You do not believe that and your preacher above does not believe that?

I like to hang out in churches that teach Jesus's return as imminent in so much as the people live here on earth as raptured. Not caring what happens in the afterwards.

 

[ewq1938]

Well.. If you don't believe brother Matthew lets try brother Luke...

You are the one not believing Paul. Neither Matthew or Luke contradicts any other part of scripture.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

...how about furnishing us with hard Scripture that teaches that there will be a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord?

Precious friend, this has already been done, but for some reason, no one
reviews or addresses Them?:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

 

[WPM]

Precious friends, Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified, as you
study God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, in preparation for our [could
be soon] Departure To our Eternal Home In God's Great GloryLand!:

Part I

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding
In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation.
Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With The
Second Coming, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In God's Other Context:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)

-------------------

The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army *, “All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, 15)

(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet” in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO: “gather the elect”...
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew 25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46!)

To be continued...

This is all references and no inspired words. This is a common Van-Imp tactic. That is because the inspired does not support your claims. Show me 1 rapture passage that shows humans surviving for 7 years? One, please.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

God's Great GRACE Departure!

This is all references and no inspired words....Show me 1 rapture passage that shows humans surviving for 7 years?

Impossible, since "the seven years" is After the rapture, but:

There are in fact, TWO 'rapture Passages' showing "believers being
changed into immortality, and caught up to be With The LORD For
EVER!" (Surviving For Eternity!) Amen?

But, hey, why would I even Reference them since you are not interested?

Grace, Peace, And JOY!

 

[WPM]

Impossible, since "the seven years" is After the rapture, but:

There are in fact, TWO 'rapture Passages' showing "believers being
changed into immortality, and caught up to be With The LORD For
EVER!" (Surviving For Eternity!) Amen?

But, hey, why would I even Reference them since you are not interested?

Grace, Peace, And JOY!

We all believe that. But where is your 7 years after the rapture anywhere? The burden of proof is with you. You are promoting it.

 

[Timtofly]

I agree. There is no one as blind as one who cannot see. They cannot be objective because their theology will not let them. They interpret the whole of Scripture by their skewed view of one symbolic chapter - Revelation 20 - in the most obscure setting in Scripture. That is insane hermeneutics. They do not even know where it is located in time. They contradict numerous Scripture. That is why they are quick to throw ad hominem.

This post is ad hominem. What theology does this poster represent?

 

[Timtofly]

Ok, so you did not answer my 1st question. I will take that as an admission it is an extra-biblical phrase.

So is Amil and recap. Neither of these words, definitions, nor concepts exist any where in Scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

This is inaccurate. Only Pretrib Premills believe that. Post-trib Premills know Christ does not return as a thief because they know the signs of his return.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Then what is the exact date, if not a thief in the night moment?

Revelation 19 and the battle of Armageddon has an exact date, time, and place. That rules out Armageddon, as the Second Coming and the introduction of the Day of the Lord. This event of the Second Coming,
that introduces the Day of the Lord is the thief in the night moment.

Events that are spelled out time wise are not candidates for the Second Coming. The rebirth of Israel was a sign, but not the Second Coming.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

We all believe that. But where is your 7 years after the rapture anywhere? The burden of proof is with you. You are promoting it.

Actually, I don't since my only 'expertise' Is with the Revelation Of The Mystery
to Paul, for us Today, which ends with God's Great GRACE Departure!

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

To find out about "the 7 years" After I'm gone to GloryLand, you will have to
ask prophecy 'experts' and, believe me, there Are PLENTY of them around!

Grace, Peace, And JOY!

 

[Davy]

I recently raised this point, and apparently made a solid point because there was no refutation. So I make it here again, in case it wasn't seen. There is a dominant group here who vehemently insist that the *only* legitimate biblical view of Rev 20 is Amill. But not only was the early Church apparently Premill, as historian Philip Schaff claims, but it was viewed as the natural interpretation of what John wrote in Rev 20. The earliest Premills were following, they believed, what John had literally written.

The argument for Amill began to become dominant after Origen and Augustine, a few centuries later, who placed a lot of stock in Symbolic Interpretation. Nobody would dispute that there is such a thing in literature as Symbolism, but I should think that there are some hard fast rules as to when Symbolic Interpretation should be allowed and when it should not be allowed?

My argument has always been that Context determines the meaning of words and how they should be interpreted, symbolic or literal. And if there is no apparent reason from the context that determines words should be interpreted symbolically, then a literal rendering would be what the author intended to convey to the reader.

It is not enough to say the book of Revelation is an apocalyptic book full of symbolism. There are many examples of books that used lots of symbolism without having to view every portion of the book as symbolic. Even in a work of science fiction, symbolically depicting the dangers of nuclear annihilation, we cannot say that everything depicted in the story is symbolic. Let's say a young man asks his father to pilot a moon vehicle. Just because the story is symbolic, and science fiction, does not mean the young man's request of his Dad symbolizes something other than what it is--a request to literally pilot a moon vehicle!

Similarly, the book of Revelation is indeed a book that uses lots of symbolism, but that doesn't mean that when we're told Christ comes back and a 1000 years of Christian reign follow that event that the entire thing is symbolic of anything other than what is literally said. The only way to tell what is symbolic and what is not is the context.

"7 heads and 10 horns" is obviously symbolic, as we can tell by the context. But there is no reason to assume the number "7" does not refer to a literal number of "7" elements described, symbolically, as "heads." There are literally *7* heads, in which the "heads" demand to be viewed as symbolic of kings, and the number "7" argues that there are literally 7 kings.

We cannot therefore say that the Millennium itself is symbolic, unless we are told so, or if the context demands it. But we can, without any other evidence, assume this is completely literal, even if many symbols are used throughout the book. We cannot assume the binding of Satan is symbolic of Christ's defeat of Satan at the cross without evidence that this was meant to be taken symbolically. For lack of evidence we should take the context "as is," and interpret things literally. Satan may have been defeated at the cross, but he is literally bound at the Return of Christ.

And the reign of those raised from the dead, in Rev 20, would be literally resurrected martyrs who reign literally for a thousand years, rather than assume they symbolize the resurrection of Christ and a mystical reign of the Church over Satan during the NT age. None of this is anything more than supposition without real evidence.

Symbolism, to be taken as such, must have a context that demands it be taken as such. And we don't have that. We should therefore assume Rev 20 is to be taken literally, with a literal thousand years, a literal resurrection of the Church, a literal reign of the Church for a thousand years, and a literal binding of Satan for a thousand years.

Some say that the context demands a "1000" be taken symbolically because the Bible regularly and normally uses "1000" in a symbolic fashion, such as "a day is as a 1000 years." In this case, the passage referred to presents a different context than the context in Rev 20 such that "1000" must be interpreted in the context in which it is used.

To transfer the meaning of "1000" in one context to another passage with a different context is an Interpretive Fallacy. "1000" can be used as a saying in "a day is as a 1000 years." But "1000" can be expressed as a literal thousand years in a context in which there is no literary saying at all, and no inference that a saying is being expressed. For example, I could say that the Byzantine Empire reigned for a thousand years, and it would literally be true, despite the fact that there are sayings in which a "1000" can be interpreted as a form of literary exaggeration.

To say Satan will be bound a thousand years, that Christians will rise from the dead and rule on earth for a thousand years, is hardly a "saying." Its own context therefore suggests this is a literal period of a thousand years.

I have to admit, well said!

The 1st century Church were all Pre-Mill.

I blame Gnosticism that began creeping in at the 2nd century A.D. for starting the Amill fabrication.

 

[Davy]

This is inaccurate. Only Pretrib Premills believe that. Post-trib Premills know Christ does not return as a thief because they know the signs of his return.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

However, Lord Jesus did... say He comes "as a thief" per Revelation 16:15. But He didn't say that as a support for any Pretrib doctrine of men.

Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.5 showed that the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". And that that day is NOT to overtake us as a thief, meaning we are not to be surprised about the events of that day.

Then Peter in 2 Peter 3:10 also showed that "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night" with God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth. So that makes it very easy to know that the trib has to be ended by that future event.

In Christ's Olivet discourse of Matthew 24, Jesus gave the idea of His coming being like a thief breaking into one's house. And if the goodman had watched He said, he would not allow his house to be broken up. So Lord Jesus also used that "as a thief" metaphor for the day of His future coming on the "day of the Lord".

That means the "day of the Lord" is the LAST DAY of this present world. But Pretrib wrongly teaches the "day of the Lord" starts just prior to the great tribulation, which is a lie.

 

[Davy]

So why would the devil start up the theory of Amillennialism in the 2nd century A.D.?

I believe... Satan through his servants pushed that so as to be a part of his future plan for the takeover by a one-world society, what globalists and occultists call a "one world government". I see that as the future fulfillment of the Rev.13 beast kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns.

What we have today with the Amill Churches are many believers in them that are actually helping the one-world beast to setup their future one-world government over all nations and peoples. They actually believe that Christ Jesus left responsibility for bringing about His Kingdom to them, for this present world time, and without His de facto return.

What those brethren are not aware of, at least not the truly honest yet deceived ones in those Amill Churches, is how the higher circles behind the one-world government movement actually work for Lucifer, and are actually working to bring Lucifer in as their king of the world for the very end (as the fake "another Jesus"). And our Heavenly Father is allowing this to happen for the end; He has a higher purpose behind it. It is going to do a lot of pruning of His Tree of Salvation, "gonna' see who's been naughty or nice."

 

[Randy Kluth]

Then what is the exact date, if not a thief in the night moment?

Revelation 19 and the battle of Armageddon has an exact date, time, and place. That rules out Armageddon, as the Second Coming and the introduction of the Day of the Lord. This event of the Second Coming,
that introduces the Day of the Lord is the thief in the night moment.

Events that are spelled out time wise are not candidates for the Second Coming. The rebirth of Israel was a sign, but not the Second Coming.

I'm a Postrib Premill, and I believe the 2nd Coming is unexpected by unbelievers because they simply don't believe the prophecies. There have been many Antichrists in history, and no unbeliever has ever viewed them as "Antichrists!"

So when THE Antichrist arrives, unbelievers will neither accept that he is the Antichrist nor will they expect Christ to come to defeat him. On the other hand, Christians are "children of the day," and are given a sense of the nearness of the Kingdom by the signs we are given in the book of Revelation.

But as Jesus said,, nobody knows the exact day and hour of Christ's return. Since Christians are the "bellwethers" determining for unbelievers when it is thought that Christ will return, the inability of Christians to know the day and the hour of Christ's return will keep unbelievers from trying to tie Christians down to a specific date of the coming Kingdom.

Some people are bothered by the fact we are given the exact number of days of Antichrist's reign, which is 1260 days. It is thought that if Christ is coming to defeat Antichrist at the end of his reign, then it is predictable that Christ will come on the 1260th day of Antichrist's reign. All one would have to do is determine what day is the 1st day of his reign!

But it isn't that simple. The 2 Witnesses haven't even been raised up from the dead until the 1264th day. And the end of Antichrist's world domain doesn't mean the end of his reign in Europe.

Obviously, if there is to be a Battle of Armageddon, with kings of the East marching towards Israel, then there has to be time after the collapse of Antichrist's coalition to muster these troops from the East to Armageddon. Again, we don't have a time estimate for this marshalling of forces from across the world. Unbelievers will be as skeptical as ever. And Christians still will not know the day and the hour of Christ's Coming.

 

[ewq1938]

Some people are bothered by the fact we are given the exact number of days of Antichrist's reign, which is 1260 days.

The time is given in months, 42 months. Days are given only for the time God's people have. They are the same length of time, but one is for the enemy and one for God's own. The two times might even be offset by 3.5 days, with a possibility of the 1260 days starting first, and the 42 months starting after. This is due to the two prophets being dead for 3.5 days so the 1260 days might be fulfilled before the 42 months are. It all depends on whether the 3.5 days is part of the 1260 days or not.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The time is given in months, 42 months. Days are given only for the time God's people have. They are the same length of time, but one is for the enemy and one for God's own. The two times might even be offset by 3.5 days, with a possibility of the 1260 days starting first, and the 42 months starting after. This is due to the two prophets being dead for 3.5 days so the 1260 days might be fulfilled before the 42 months are. It all depends on whether the 3.5 days is part of the 1260 days or not.

It's kind of a guessing game for me, brother. I can't be sure of anything in this timing scheme. My system of interpretation consists of back tracking to the origins of a doctrine. The origins of the 3.5 years is Dan 7, and it doesn't have two periods of 3.5 years each.

So I feel the 3.5 years is a single period based on a back reference to the 3.5 years in Dan 7, and is expressed as 3.5 years, 42 months, and 1260 days. They all represent the same period of time utilizing 3 different measures of time.

The days speak of day to day survival under the oppressive rule of the Antichrist. The 42 months suggest month to month survival under the same period of time. The 3.5 years suggest yearly survival under the same reign. When people survive under difficult circumstances, there is a different tack to survive for a day, for a month, and for a year. I'm sure that's what you're trying to do.

The 1260 days distinguishes it from the 1290 days associated with Antiochus 4. But your guess is as good as mine, I suppose? I just suggest that you base your guess on a clear statement of Scripture, connecting related Scriptures as best you can.

 

[Davy]

The time is given in months, 42 months. Days are given only for the time God's people have. They are the same length of time, but one is for the enemy and one for God's own. The two times might even be offset by 3.5 days, with a possibility of the 1260 days starting first, and the 42 months starting after. This is due to the two prophets being dead for 3.5 days so the 1260 days might be fulfilled before the 42 months are. It all depends on whether the 3.5 days is part of the 1260 days or not.

And then Lord Jesus said he 'shortened' the time per His Olivet discourse. So we don't actually know for sure just how long the "great tribulation" period will be. We cannot rely on the 1260 days idea anymore, but only as a symbolic sign for the order of events.

 

[Taken]

Exactly bro! They have to say that to make the book fit their false teaching. The book is saturated in symbolism. But one needs eyes to see to understand it.

Understanding does not manifest because one has eyes and can see.

Scripture is Knowledge… given men by Gods Authority and obedient men, who listened, wrote, copied, distributed the Written Word of God.

Understanding of that Knowledge, Gods knowledge is given Particular men FROM the Lord God Himself!

 

[Taken]

This is all references and no inspired words. This is a common Van-Imp tactic. That is because the inspired does not support your claims. Show me 1 rapture passage that shows humans surviving for 7 years? One, please.

Your Request is confounded….
The RAPTURE is ONE thing.
The Existence OF NATURAL PEOPLE on Earth DURING the Millennial Reign of CHRIST and His SAINTS is ANOTHER THING.

Raptured SAINTS return to Earth WITH Christ. THEY are NO LONGER “NATURAL”, THEY DO NOT OCCUPY the NATIONS OF NATURAL MEN.
THEY Occupy Christ’s KINGDOM.
It is AFTER Christ’s millennial reign, that Satan is allowed to Return to EARTH, and AGAIN convince MORTAL MEN occupying Earthly Nations, to WAR AGAINST Christ’s KINGDOM….and the Mortals of the Earthly Nations….do so arm themselves, proceed to Attack Christ’s Kingdom….and are KILLED….by that 2 Edged Sword OF Christ….(that you might do well to learn what THAT is).

Rev 20:
[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Are you FAMILIAR, KNOWING, UNDERStANDING of what a NATION IS?

A NATION IS: a land mass, inhabited and occupied by PEOPLE with a Governing Head.

Rev 20:8 notifies you OF THE NUMBER OF “THEM” who are inhabiting/ occupying the NATIONS (DURING Christ’s 1,000 year reign)…which such inhabitants OF the NATIONS are so NUMEROUS, a comparison is given, to the NUMBER as SAND of the Sea.

If you require to KNOW the EXACT NUMBER of HOW MANY PEOPLE will occupy the NATIONS during Christ’s millennial reign….then satisfy yourself and go count the sands of the sea.

For you to WONDER or DOUBT there will be PEOPLE existing ON EARTH, in NATIONS ON EARTH, during Christ’s millennial reign, simply reveals you either do not Read the Knowledge IN Scripture or do not Comprehend what you Read.