Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[Johann]

no, it doesnt work like that. I can tell you what else dont work, changing doctrines just because it gets hard.

Either I am under a delusion, or you are.
Can two walk together lest they agree?
J.

 

[Cassandra]

since always. Didnt Jesus tell us to carry our own cross? You say calvinism is wrong. Why?? Because you dont have peace or assurance. You dont turn and run when it gets difficult, you fight and fix it.
Sifting….. without a solid doctrine, you’ll change your mind about doctrines every time someone comes along who is smarter than you and convinces you of a new and improved doctrine.
I AM a calvinist and will always remain calvinist. And i will fight tooth and nail to get saved, and surrender to God.

So you still are not saved, yet you are a Calvinist? You say you will fight to get saved--that is not what Calvinism is, is it?
But you can cut on this guy because he changed his mind?

 

[Johann]

But you can cut on this guy because he changed his mind?

But you can cut on this guy because he changed his mind?

Thank you sister.
Shalom to you and family
J.

 

[APAK]

Then you are not a Calvinist according to the Synods of Dort.

What. Do you know exactly what that means?

 

[APAK]

I stand by what I have posted, I don't follow Calvin, but Christ and Him alone.
J.

So you know what Calvin actually wrote and especially what he meant? Not what the many over the years have claimed he said and believed as these people above all all believe they possess a spiritual free-will. And so you are then only of a few that really does understand his work? And you know his work was based on many people before him since the 1st century? He just did not one day decide to make all this up right?

It's amazing how he became infamous with those who are diehard believers that they have full spiritual free will to be saved and become unsaved, all by themselves through their own will. This is the real core of the real debate isn't it, whether it is Calvinism, OSAS and other similar issues involving man's supreme free-will.

Those that believe in God providing the grace and faith for their spiritual salvation, and moving people to himself in this process are those in one camp, versus the other camp, those who believe they possess godlike powers to already know or learn of God without his intervention, by themselves, and then decide to be saved or not, to be saved one day and to will themselves to lose it the next. Which camp are you in, Johann?

 

[Lambano]

@Johann, I think you're playing with us again.

 

[amigo de christo]

since always. Didnt Jesus tell us to carry our own cross? You say calvinism is wrong. Why?? Because you dont have peace or assurance. You dont turn and run when it gets difficult, you fight and fix it.
Sifting….. without a solid doctrine, you’ll change your mind about doctrines every time someone comes along who is smarter than you and convinces you of a new and improved doctrine.
I AM a calvinist and will always remain calvinist. And i will fight tooth and nail to get saved, and surrender to God.

Your seeing it wrong my friend . We dont fight tooth and nail to GET saved . Faith in CHRIST does that .
WE die daily and fight the good fight of faith . We heed the SPIRIT and must resist the flesh .

 

[amigo de christo]

I have peace and assurance now..
J.

What did JOHN tell the church . These things i write unto you , that YOU MAY KNOW YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE .
Those who believe in CHRIST KNOW THEY have eternal life .
Truth is real simple . That you may KNOW that you have eternal life . John didnt say , WELL maybe you do and mabye ya dont
FAITH IN JESUS TRULY DOES SAVE A SOUL . Now let us COTINUE in HIM . Having all faith , all hope
all TRUST IN HE ALONE . Yes indeed . Keep that gospel firm to the end .
How do i know i am saved , CAUSE JESUS DID ALL that was required for me to BE SAVED . HE DID IT . LET THE KING BE PRAISED .
Our trust must be IN HE ALONE . Now put those hands up and let the LORD be praised .
MY fear for many is , They follow another jesus , NOW that one cannot save .
So learn the biblical one well . Examine to see if we truly do walk in the faith . TRUST IN CHRIST . HE ALONE
is the only name whereby one may be saved .

 

[APAK]

I have read enough to know Calvin and his teachings are wrong...for example, you can be born again BEFORE you believe...twisting and wresting the Holy writ...if I could i would remove all posts of the Reformers and THEIR writings..almost like the Mohammed and his Quran
Guess I was on a wrong path for two years.
The Lord knows my heart
God bless
J.

Well you say you have done a lot of reading, and you are 100 percent sure that Calvin said and believed you must be reborn before possessing saving faith.

Well I can go to the internet and see that for myself. And I can also go on the internet from some Biblical scholars that say he neve wrote or said such a thing. Others, using Calvin's work and using his name took liberties to alter his work along the way...

Example: go to the link Faith Precedes Regeneration

an excerpt: By Daniel D. Musick, B.A., Wheaton College, 1973; M.A., Theology, Wheaton Graduate School, 1978
---------------------------
John Calvin

While Calvinists bear his name, most do not follow Calvin's ordo salutis. It may be accurate to say that Calvinistic ordo salutis endorses regeneration preceding faith, but it is not accurate to suggest that Calvin himself supports the Calvinistic ordo salutis. While Calvin states in his commentary on 1 John 5:1 that "no one can have faith, except he is born of God," he also begins his commentary on the passage saying that "God regenerates us by faith." 13

13Calvin's Commentaries, 1 John 5:1-5, accessed June 23, 2012, 1 John 5:1-5.

Calvin details his ordo salutis in his commentary on John 1:13.

He writes:

The Evangelist says that those who believe are already born of God. Hence it follows, first, that faith does not proceed from ourselves, but is the fruit of spiritual regeneration; for the Evangelist affirms that no man can believe, unless he be begotten of God; and therefore faith is a heavenly gift. It follows, secondly, that faith is not bare or cold knowledge, since no man can believe who has not been renewed by the Spirit of God. 14

14Calvin's Commentaries, John 1:6-13, accessed June 23, 2012, John 1:6-13

One might conclude here that Calvin believes that regeneration precedes faith. Calvin makes the same observation, but his conclusion differs. He continues, "It may be thought that the Evangelist reverses the natural order by making regeneration to precede faith, whereas, on the contrary, it is an effect of faith, and therefore ought to be placed later." 15

14Calvin's Commentaries, John 1:6-13, accessed June 23, 2012, John 1:6-13

-----------------------------John Calvin believed that faith comes before regeneration----------------

So who do you believe, John Calvin and his words or someone/some other people who later founded or became part of a modern day Calvinist movement that is not of John's teachings?
-------------------------
Jonathan Edwards

Because he is part of the reformed tradition, it would be expected that he would support the later reformed ordo salutis in which regeneration precedes faith.
-----------------------------------
Edwards and others like him gave John Calvin a black eye and slandered his reputation Johann...

Again, as said in my initial post on the subject to you, what you think maybe from the lips and pen of John Calvin are sometimes really from imposters and fakers along the way.....now when they hear these people and read their writings, they cry out Calvinism, it is from the devil etc...we have defamed John Calvin by his association with his own name...what a shame.

I say again, I'm not a Calvinist per se although I would like to at least see fair play and the truth exposed, in this case concerning John Calvin.....

So do you think that Calvin really said and meant 'regeneration before faith' or was it from some others who used his name and type of doctrine and twisted it?

The thing is, it is not the name (John Calvin) and the doctrine (Calvinism) that is really important, it is what he and it says and means, in this case for your and my salvation. It has to scriptural and Spirit sent into our hearts I would think.

Blessings,

 

[Lambano]

And no, i cant set anyone with a closed mind on the right path.

Me neither.

 

[quietthinker]

Lol!
J.
Not "gonna get" already have it.

I see, you have your reward already?

 

[praise_yeshua]

What. Do you know exactly what that means?

Exactly what I said. Do you not understand English?

 

[praise_yeshua]

an excerpt: By Daniel D. Musick, B.A., Wheaton College, 1973; M.A., Theology, Wheaton Graduate School, 1978
---------------------------
John Calvin

While Calvinists bear his name, most do not follow Calvin's ordo salutis. It may be accurate to say that Calvinistic ordo salutis endorses regeneration preceding faith, but it is not accurate to suggest that Calvin himself supports the Calvinistic ordo salutis. While Calvin states in his commentary on 1 John 5:1 that "no one can have faith, except he is born of God," he also begins his commentary on the passage saying that "God regenerates us by faith." 13

13Calvin's Commentaries, 1 John 5:1-5, accessed June 23, 2012, 1 John 5:1-5.

Calvin details his ordo salutis in his commentary on John 1:13.

He writes:

The Evangelist says that those who believe are already born of God. Hence it follows, first, that faith does not proceed from ourselves, but is the fruit of spiritual regeneration; for the Evangelist affirms that no man can believe, unless he be begotten of God; and therefore faith is a heavenly gift. It follows, secondly, that faith is not bare or cold knowledge, since no man can believe who has not been renewed by the Spirit of God. 14

14Calvin's Commentaries, John 1:6-13, accessed June 23, 2012, John 1:6-13

One might conclude here that Calvin believes that regeneration precedes faith. Calvin makes the same observation, but his conclusion differs. He continues, "It may be thought that the Evangelist reverses the natural order by making regeneration to precede faith, whereas, on the contrary, it is an effect of faith, and therefore ought to be placed later." 15

14Calvin's Commentaries, John 1:6-13, accessed June 23, 2012, John 1:6-13

-----------------------------John Calvin believed that faith comes before regeneration----------------

So who do you believe, John Calvin and his words or someone/some other people who later founded or became part of a modern day Calvinist movement that is not of John's teachings?
,

Typical nonsense from a young man devoid of understanding. Calvin was full of contradictions. That is why Calvinists have been fighting one another for centuries over what he said. He left plenty of contradictions in his writings.

That is what carnal men do. Young, inexperienced and immature men like Calvin are prone to many mistakes.

 

[FHII]

I don't read Calvin's writings. Uninspired, fallible.
Blessings
J.

...And this is a concern I have. Are you saying you don't currently read them or are you saying you have never read them?

The big problem is that most people who rail on Calvinism have never read Calvin's writings. Its important because John didn't invent "Calvinism". I often quip that Calvin wasn't a Calvinist.

If you want to speak against calvinism, I have no problem with that. I disagree with much of it too. If tou want to disagree with John Calvin, I am fine with that as long as you have actually read what he wrote to a reasonable degree.

I disagree with some stuff he wrote too! For example, he said grace isn't a license. (Yeah... He said that!) I disagree. Its forgiveness of something we don't need a license to do.

So... Have you actually read his works?

 

[praise_yeshua]

...And this is a concern I have. Are you saying you don't currently read them or are you saying you have never read them?

The big problem is that most people who rail on Calvinism have never read Calvin's writings. Its important because John didn't invent "Calvinism". I often quip that Calvin wasn't a Calvinist.

If you want to speak against calvinism, I have no problem with that. I disagree with much of it too. If tou want to disagree with John Calvin, I am fine with that as long as you have actually read what he wrote to a reasonable degree.

I disagree with some stuff he wrote too! For example, he said grace isn't a license. (Yeah... He said that!) I disagree. Its forgiveness of something we don't need a license to do.

So... Have you actually read his works?

So you're a Latin or French expert?

I doubt you've read his work. You've read translations and at times, those translations vary significantly from one another. It just depends upon the agenda of the the writer.

 

[FHII]

So you're a Latin or French expert?

I doubt you've read his work. You've read translations and at times, those translations vary significantly from one another. It just depends upon the agenda of the the writer.

I will give you that... I speak English and read English. I do what I can do. Its more than 99% of those who rail on Calvin do, which is read wikipedia to form an opinion.

My point is that most form an opinion of Calvin without reading his works. This is wrong. So if you are fluent in latin and french and can convince me that you are not a madman, perhaps I can entertain a suggestion for a proper translation.

But... It seems you too have an agenda.

 

[Johann]

...And this is a concern I have. Are you saying you don't currently read them or are you saying you have never read them?

The big problem is that most people who rail on Calvinism have never read Calvin's writings. Its important because John didn't invent "Calvinism". I often quip that Calvin wasn't a Calvinist.

If you want to speak against calvinism, I have no problem with that. I disagree with much of it too. If tou want to disagree with John Calvin, I am fine with that as long as you have actually read what he wrote to a reasonable degree.

I disagree with some stuff he wrote too! For example, he said grace isn't a license. (Yeah... He said that!) I disagree. Its forgiveness of something we don't need a license to do.

So... Have you actually read his works?

@FHII

I don't need to read Calvin, Owen,Edward etc..man made writings..fallible.
It is the simplicity of the good news that confound the wise.
Question
Since when is regeneration preceded by faith?

 

[Johann]

I disagree with some stuff he wrote too! For example, he said grace isn't a license. (Yeah... He said that!) I disagree. Its forgiveness of something we don't need a license to do.

..or something?
Grace
Forgiveness
J.

 

[Johann]

I see, you have your reward already?

Are you being silly now?
J.

 

[Johann]

Well you say you have done a lot of reading, and you are 100 percent sure that Calvin said and believed you must be reborn before possessing saving faith.

Well I can go to the internet and see that for myself. And I can also go on the internet from some Biblical scholars that say he neve wrote or said such a thing. Others, using Calvin's work and using his name took liberties to alter his work along the way...

Example: go to the link Faith Precedes Regeneration

an excerpt: By Daniel D. Musick, B.A., Wheaton College, 1973; M.A., Theology, Wheaton Graduate School, 1978
---------------------------
John Calvin

While Calvinists bear his name, most do not follow Calvin's ordo salutis. It may be accurate to say that Calvinistic ordo salutis endorses regeneration preceding faith, but it is not accurate to suggest that Calvin himself supports the Calvinistic ordo salutis. While Calvin states in his commentary on 1 John 5:1 that "no one can have faith, except he is born of God," he also begins his commentary on the passage saying that "God regenerates us by faith." 13

13Calvin's Commentaries, 1 John 5:1-5, accessed June 23, 2012, 1 John 5:1-5.

Calvin details his ordo salutis in his commentary on John 1:13.

He writes:

The Evangelist says that those who believe are already born of God. Hence it follows, first, that faith does not proceed from ourselves, but is the fruit of spiritual regeneration; for the Evangelist affirms that no man can believe, unless he be begotten of God; and therefore faith is a heavenly gift. It follows, secondly, that faith is not bare or cold knowledge, since no man can believe who has not been renewed by the Spirit of God. 14

14Calvin's Commentaries, John 1:6-13, accessed June 23, 2012, John 1:6-13

One might conclude here that Calvin believes that regeneration precedes faith. Calvin makes the same observation, but his conclusion differs. He continues, "It may be thought that the Evangelist reverses the natural order by making regeneration to precede faith, whereas, on the contrary, it is an effect of faith, and therefore ought to be placed later." 15

14Calvin's Commentaries, John 1:6-13, accessed June 23, 2012, John 1:6-13

-----------------------------John Calvin believed that faith comes before regeneration----------------

So who do you believe, John Calvin and his words or someone/some other people who later founded or became part of a modern day Calvinist movement that is not of John's teachings?
-------------------------
Jonathan Edwards

Because he is part of the reformed tradition, it would be expected that he would support the later reformed ordo salutis in which regeneration precedes faith.
-----------------------------------
Edwards and others like him gave John Calvin a black eye and slandered his reputation Johann...

Again, as said in my initial post on the subject to you, what you think maybe from the lips and pen of John Calvin are sometimes really from imposters and fakers along the way.....now when they hear these people and read their writings, they cry out Calvinism, it is from the devil etc...we have defamed John Calvin by his association with his own name...what a shame.

I say again, I'm not a Calvinist per se although I would like to at least see fair play and the truth exposed, in this case concerning John Calvin.....

So do you think that Calvin really said and meant 'regeneration before faith' or was it from some others who used his name and type of doctrine and twisted it?

The thing is, it is not the name (John Calvin) and the doctrine (Calvinism) that is really important, it is what he and it says and means, in this case for your and my salvation. It has to scriptural and Spirit sent into our hearts I would think.

Blessings,

To me it is not what Calvin wrote, or Edward, Owen...it is what stands written in scriptures.
You misunderstand me, I am not against Calvinism..we are commanded to love each other.
Blessings
J.