Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[Johann]

So you know what Calvin actually wrote and especially what he meant? Not what the many over the years have claimed he said and believed as these people above all all believe they possess a spiritual free-will. And so you are then only of a few that really does understand his work? And you know his work was based on many people before him since the 1st century? He just did not one day decide to make all this up right?

It's amazing how he became infamous with those who are diehard believers that they have full spiritual free will to be saved and become unsaved, all by themselves through their own will. This is the real core of the real debate isn't it, whether it is Calvinism, OSAS and other similar issues involving man's supreme free-will.

Those that believe in God providing the grace and faith for their spiritual salvation, and moving people to himself in this process are those in one camp, versus the other camp, those who believe they possess godlike powers to already know or learn of God without his intervention, by themselves, and then decide to be saved or not, to be saved one day and to will themselves to lose it the next. Which camp are you in, Johann?

In Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit, Him alone.

 

[Johann]

Yes indeed . Keep that gospel firm to the end .
How do i know i am saved , CAUSE JESUS DID ALL that was required for me to BE SAVED . HE DID IT . LET THE KING BE PRAISED .

@amigo de christo

Amen
Blessings
J.

 

[Johann]

The thing is, it is not the name (John Calvin) and the doctrine (Calvinism) that is really important, it is what he and it says and means, in this case for your and my salvation.

For me it is what the scriptures says and means...not Calvin
J.

 

[Johann]

Those that believe in God providing the grace and faith for their spiritual salvation, and moving people to himself in this process are those in one camp, versus the other camp, those who believe they possess godlike powers to already know or learn of God without his intervention, by themselves, and then decide to be saved or not, to be saved one day and to will themselves to lose it the next. Which camp are you in, Johann?

Look at my signature...IN Christ.
J.

 

[Johann]

since always. Unless you are regenerated, its impossible to have faith. Paul tells us that no one seeks out God. He has to call you, then you can have faith. Before regeneration a sinner is dead and until the sinner is regenerated and given a new nature, the sinner cannot believe.

RC Sproul said this; “Where does that faith come from? And this question probably more than any other is what defines the essence of reformed theology. If there’s one phrase that captures the essence of reformed theology, it is the little phrase, regeneration precedes faith. That is the power of faith, the power of believing, is a result not of an act of our will independently, but it is the fruit of God’s sovereign act of changing the disposition of our hearts and giving to us the gift of faith.”

its clear you havent read the reformers.

Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
2. “…get a new heart and a new spirit.”

Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

1. “Repent and…”
2. “…live!”

Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.



Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “Repentance unto…”
2. “…life”

The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).



John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “Come to me…” (through faith)
2. “…to have life.”

John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
2. “…you have not life in you.”

John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
2. “…will live”

John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “these are written…” (scriptures)
2. “…that you may believe…”
3. “…by believing you may have life…”

Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.



Acts 15:9

“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “He purified their hearts…”
2. “…by faith.”

It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.



John 1:12-13

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “…all who did receive him…who believed…”
2. “…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”

You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).



Galatians 3:26

“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “You are all sons of God…”
2. “…through faith in Christ…”

Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.



John 12:36

“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “Believe in the light…”
2. “…so that you may become children…”

Ephesians 1:13

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “when you heard the message of truth…when you believed
2. “you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”

For more on how to better understand the biblical doctrine of predestination presented in Ephesians 1, watch this.



Galatians 3:2, 5

“I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?… So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “…received the Spirit…”
2. “…by believing what you heard…”

2 Corinthians 3:14-16

“But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “…anyone turns to the Lord…” (by faith)
2. “…the veil is taken away.”

1 Timothy 1:16

“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “…those who would believe in him…”
2. “…may receive eternal life.”

Colossians 2:12

“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
2. “…through your faith…”

James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “…give us brith…”
2. “…through the word of truth…”

Calvinists teach the word of truth will certainly be rejected by the unregenerate, thus how can the apostle say that the word may be the means of new birth? Birth must precede the word if Calvinism is true, and that is not what the text clearly indicates.

The Philippian jailer inquired, “What must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30).

If Paul was Calvinistic he should have replied, “You can do nothing to be saved. You were born corpse-like dead in your sin and a dead man can do nothing. If God makes you alive then you will be convinced to believe our gospel.” But Paul does not hesitate to simply say, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). Believe so as to have new life. Repent so as to live! That is the gospel appeal sent for all to hear it and respond.




1 John 5:1

First John 5:1 states: “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God . . .”29 “Whoever believes” is a present tense participle. “Born” is a perfect tense verb. Some Calvinists suggest the perfect tense indicates completed past action with continuing results and draw the conclusion that faith is the result of being born again. The argument is that the verb “born” is in the perfect tense denoting an action that precedes the faith in the participle “whoever believes.”




The broader context of John’s writings indicate he would not teach that regeneration precedes faith and elsewhere teach that faith is a condition for life as he does in John 20:31. This precludes the possibility of regeneration preceding faith.

Three conclusions, then, are in order:

1. There is no Biblical text that connects faith and regeneration in a grammatical structure that prescribes an order that supports regeneration preceding faith. Nor is there any statement in Scripture which precludes faith preceding regeneration.

2. There are biblical texts connecting faith and regeneration that support faith preceding regeneration.

3. There are texts that would seem to preclude the possibility of regeneration preceding faith. There is no Scripture anywhere that directly says regeneration precedes faith. That is a theological deduction made by some Calvinists that is driven more by their system than it is by Scripture. The Scripture says things like, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved,” as Paul said to the Philippian jailor in Acts 16.

Does Regeneration Precede Faith?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus warned peter about being like you…in Luke. Calvinism IS Biblical. And you not holding to a steady doctrine is an example of satan sifting you like wheat.
And no, i cant set anyone with a closed mind on the right path.

One should be careful in telling someone else they have a closed mind, when in your own post. You seem closed minded of anything that would seem to go against calvinism.

 

[Lambano]

Question
Since when is regeneration preceded by faith?

Unless you are regenerated, its impossible to have faith.

Question: If this is so, how does a Jew have faith in the same God we worship? For that matter, how does a Muslim have faith in Allah?

How does anyone trust whatever object of trust they do trust?

 

[Lambano]

@Johann, you must've gotten bored and decided to stir the pot, didn't you?

My Mechanics prof also coached the debate team. One of his coaching techniques was to assign opposite sides of a topic to two of his debaters. Then halfway through the practice debate, he'd tell 'em to switch sides. That way they'd learn both points of view.

 

[Lambano]

if God calls them, then they can respond with repentance, faith, and sanctification. The same as anyone else. Muslims are misled. Jews for now, are misled.

So, a Muslim who trusts Allah, successfully repented of, say, a life of atheism, fornication and alcohol abuse, took on a life of piety (praying 5 times a day, giving alms to the poor, etc.), he is called by God?

 

[Johann]

Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
2. “…get a new heart and a new spirit.”

Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

1. “Repent and…”
2. “…live!”

Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.



Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “Repentance unto…”
2. “…life”

The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).



John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “Come to me…” (through faith)
2. “…to have life.”

John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
2. “…you have not life in you.”

John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
2. “…will live”

John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “these are written…” (scriptures)
2. “…that you may believe…”
3. “…by believing you may have life…”

Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.



Acts 15:9

“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “He purified their hearts…”
2. “…by faith.”

It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.



John 1:12-13

“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “…all who did receive him…who believed…”
2. “…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”

You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).



Galatians 3:26

“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “You are all sons of God…”
2. “…through faith in Christ…”

Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.



John 12:36

“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “Believe in the light…”
2. “…so that you may become children…”

Ephesians 1:13

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “when you heard the message of truth…when you believed
2. “you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”

For more on how to better understand the biblical doctrine of predestination presented in Ephesians 1, watch this.



Galatians 3:2, 5

“I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?… So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “…received the Spirit…”
2. “…by believing what you heard…”

2 Corinthians 3:14-16

“But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “…anyone turns to the Lord…” (by faith)
2. “…the veil is taken away.”

1 Timothy 1:16

“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “…those who would believe in him…”
2. “…may receive eternal life.”

Colossians 2:12

“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
2. “…through your faith…”

James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

1. “…give us brith…”
2. “…through the word of truth…”

Calvinists teach the word of truth will certainly be rejected by the unregenerate, thus how can the apostle say that the word may be the means of new birth? Birth must precede the word if Calvinism is true, and that is not what the text clearly indicates.

The Philippian jailer inquired, “What must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30).

If Paul was Calvinistic he should have replied, “You can do nothing to be saved. You were born corpse-like dead in your sin and a dead man can do nothing. If God makes you alive then you will be convinced to believe our gospel.” But Paul does not hesitate to simply say, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). Believe so as to have new life. Repent so as to live! That is the gospel appeal sent for all to hear it and respond.




1 John 5:1

First John 5:1 states: “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God . . .”29 “Whoever believes” is a present tense participle. “Born” is a perfect tense verb. Some Calvinists suggest the perfect tense indicates completed past action with continuing results and draw the conclusion that faith is the result of being born again. The argument is that the verb “born” is in the perfect tense denoting an action that precedes the faith in the participle “whoever believes.”




The broader context of John’s writings indicate he would not teach that regeneration precedes faith and elsewhere teach that faith is a condition for life as he does in John 20:31. This precludes the possibility of regeneration preceding faith.

Three conclusions, then, are in order:

1. There is no Biblical text that connects faith and regeneration in a grammatical structure that prescribes an order that supports regeneration preceding faith. Nor is there any statement in Scripture which precludes faith preceding regeneration.

2. There are biblical texts connecting faith and regeneration that support faith preceding regeneration.

3. There are texts that would seem to preclude the possibility of regeneration preceding faith. There is no Scripture anywhere that directly says regeneration precedes faith. That is a theological deduction made by some Calvinists that is driven more by their system than it is by Scripture. The Scripture says things like, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved,” as Paul said to the Philippian jailor in Acts 16.

Does Regeneration Precede Faith?

 

[Johann]

@Johann, you must've gotten bored and decided to stir the pot, didn't you?

My Mechanics prof also coached the debate team. One of his coaching techniques was to assign opposite sides of a topic to two of his debaters. Then halfway through the practice debate, he'd tell 'em to switch sides. That way they'd learn both points of view.

@Lambano

To me it is a serious matter, since many are disillusioned not knowing the doctrines of salvation...I am not attacking the Calvinistic viewpoint, simply pointing out the errors.
J.
Listen to this and give me your feedback.

 

[Johann]

since always

According to you regeneration precedes faith, in other words...a person can be born again BEFORE believing?
This is ludicrous, don't you think?

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Johann]

all that for nothing.
Ok heres the deal, regeneration has to happen first before faith. 2 examples that explain this.
1. What part did you contribute to being born? Hopefully you say none. You had NO say in being born. In John 3, Jesus tells nicodemus that he has to be born again. You think you contribute anything to being reborn? No!!
2. Ephesians 2, paul tells us that as unregenerate people, we are dead in our sins. And unregenerate person can not ever ever have faith on his own. Also if you have to produce faith to be regenerate, that is your works, not Jesus atonement.
3. And as a bonus, Jesus Himself said in john 6, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
See that?? NO ONE can have faith till the Father calls us.

Sounds plausible however, you are in error.


1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

https://www.northlandchurch.com/content.cfm?id=316&download_id=2173

Blessings
J.
We are already drawn by the Father friend.

 

[APAK]

To me it is not what Calvin wrote, or Edward, Owen...it is what stands written in scriptures.
You misunderstand me, I am not against Calvinism..we are commanded to love each other.
Blessings
J.

Well that's what I already said partially.. At the end of the day the doctrine of Calvinism or whatever other teachings and from whomever it came from must be logical in a scriptural sense at the micro level, verse to verse and Chapter, and at the more macro level, the bigger picture and the layers of outer context.

The main problem in all these debatable discussions imo, is that most people, most of the time, do not have an open mind and are not guided by the new spirit of Christ within them of God when then forman opinion or conclusion. They have a personal agenda and a narrative they want to preserve at all costs, even at the expense of trampling on scripture in the process, of twisting and misusing scripture for their purposes.

This might surprise you.

Take Trinitarianism for example, as a core belief. I believe this is the most obvious obnoxious trojan horse doctrine ever devised over a few hundred years by man for religious-political reasons and not for God and Christ, for man and his own needs out of historical ignorance. It is a giant problem and should be a monumental concern for Christianity as compared to the wee small Calvinist doctrine. And yet 99 percent of professing Christians somehow manage to find scriptural logic in it, as they continue to believe in one of its many mysterious forms that is not scriptural at all.

The truly saved is not always saved doctrine is easily in the top 10. Another trojan horse laid into Christianity...

The so-called free-will debate for saving and un-saving at will doctrine without the will of God is another trojan horse............in the top 10.

There are more fish to fry that we think Johann....imo

 

[Johann]

Take Trinitarianism for example, as a core belief. I believe this is the most obvious obnoxious trojan horse doctrine ever devised over a few hundred years by man for religious-political reasons and not for God and Christ, for man and his own needs out of historical ignorance.

I firmly believe in the Triune Godhead since I do not go on what you say but what is written in Scriptures.
Blessings
J.

 

[reformed1689]

I stand by what I have posted, I don't follow Calvin, but Christ and Him alone.
J.

Well quit thinking that Calvinism actually has anything to do with Calvin. It doesn't. The teaching comes straight from Scripture. I haven't seen the video because I don't have access to YouTube but if one video immediately flips your viewpoint you are wishy washy and need to do more in-depth study.

 

[Johann]

There are more fish to fry that we think Johann....imo

Do you take the scriptures at face value or reading the commentaries and writings of others?
J.

 

[Johann]

Well quit thinking that Calvinism actually has anything to do with Calvin. It doesn't. The teaching comes straight from Scripture.

No, Calvin's teaching is not based on scripture and a little bit of leaven leavens the whole lump
J.

 

[Johann]

The main problem in all these debatable discussions imo, is that most people, most of the time, do not have an open mind

Very, very wrong..to have an "open mind"...
J.

 

[Johann]

@Johann, you must've gotten bored and decided to stir the pot, didn't you?

My Mechanics prof also coached the debate team. One of his coaching techniques was to assign opposite sides of a topic to two of his debaters. Then halfway through the practice debate, he'd tell 'em to switch sides. That way they'd learn both points of view.

There are people here who have become unsure re their salvation and we are here to show them, in simple plain language and not with high sophistry that they may KNOW they are eternally secure in Christ and that nothing can pluck them out of our Father's hands..that they may KNOW that they HAVE everlasting life.
(no offense)
J.