Sabbath-Keeping

[justaname]

Justaname, I've challenged other liberals here who believe that Christians are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments to publicly declare that we are at liberty to freely break them - so far, no one has been courageous enough to do so.

In a stunning turn of events, Uppsaladragby actually attempted to argue that "we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments but we are not at liberty to act contrary to them".

Until recently, this was the most shocking example of "religious doublespeak" that I'd ever heard.

Why would a Christian do anything immoral? You speak nonsense or you have a shallow view of love.

 

[justaname]

The most glaring example of the Biblical distinction between the Mosaic Law and the Ten Commandments is that it is not a sin to disregard the former (1 Corinthians 7:19 KJV) but it is fully sin to disregard the latter (James 2:10-12 KJV).

To do anything immoral, even thinking immoral thoughts is against God. It is unloving.

 

[justaname]

1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. - Hebrews 6:1-2

Why when Jesus has given us of His Spirit, so many want to bring us back to the letter? Is it because they are still in need of a tutor?

 

[Barrd]

Let me try Phoneman's challenge in a slightly different context. I'll be the subject....

I'm a female...isn't it logical that I would want to worship a female goddess? Would God mind if I added the wiccan Goddess to my personal Pantheon?

I saw a really adorable statuette of the goddess. Since I'm "under Grace" surely God wouldn't mind if I bought it and set it up in my bedroom, right? I mean, it goes with my curtains, and everything!

Okay...on my way home from the way from the grocery store, some jerk cut me off just as I was about to turn into my street. I said some very nasty things to him, and God's name was in there...but he couldn't hear me, cuz I was in my car...so, I don't have to repent, right. I mean, I'm not under the law, so God shouldn't care anyway.

The Sabbath? Heck, even most Christians don't keep it. Besides, I need the cash. God won't mind if I open my little stand...would He?

All my Mom ever does is criticize. I'm so tired of her constant nagging! Surely God would understand if I smacked her face just once, right?

My uncle has made me his beneficiary. If he were to die, I would inherit a fortune. And I really need the money. He's getting old anyway...and after all, God has said that all of my sins are forgiven...all it would take is just a little push...

I've been married for a long time, and I do love my husband. But I miss the romantic guy he once was. There's this handsome new guy at work, and he's been checking me out. A little fling, to put a bit of excitement back into my life wouldn't hurt, would it? After all, everybody does it....and I am under Grace. I'm already forgiven...so why not?

I've decided to let my poor old uncle live a bit longer. But I can't stop thinking about all that stuff...he wouldn't miss one or two of his valuable pieces of jewelry....and I could pay off that loan. And after all, I'm under Grace. God doesn't even see what I do as sin...

There's a new girl at work. She's younger than me, and she's very pretty. She's getting all the attention I was getting before she showed up. I don't like her. But I know....I'll start a couple of nasty rumors about her...if the boss thinks she has a dark past, he will fire her...and I'll have my spotlight back again. I know there used to be a law against this kind of stuff...but that law was nailed to the cross...right?

And really...that old nut about not coveting is so old it has long ago turned to dust. So, I'm jealous of my friend's new car. Big deal!
Right?

Any comments from any OSASer would be appreciated.
Let's see how the doctrine works in real life....

 

[Barrd]

The laws in my signature...

The Royal Law...

Love

Oh...you mean the Ten Commandments.
Love.

 

[justaname]

Let me try Phoneman's challenge in a slightly different context. I'll be the subject....

I'm a female...isn't it logical that I would want to worship a female goddess? Would God mind if I added the wiccan Goddess to my personal Pantheon?

I saw a really adorable statuette of the goddess. Since I'm "under Grace" surely God wouldn't mind if I bought it and set it up in my bedroom, right? I mean, it goes with my curtains, and everything!

Okay...on my way home from the way from the grocery store, some jerk cut me off just as I was about to turn into my street. I said some very nasty things to him, and God's name was in there...but he couldn't hear me, cuz I was in my car...so, I don't have to repent, right. I mean, I'm not under the law, so God shouldn't care anyway.

The Sabbath? Heck, even most Christians don't keep it. Besides, I need the cash. God won't mind if I open my little stand...would He?

All my Mom ever does is criticize. I'm so tired of her constant nagging! Surely God would understand if I smacked her face just once, right?

My uncle has made me his beneficiary. If he were to die, I would inherit a fortune. And I really need the money. He's getting old anyway...and after all, God has said that all of my sins are forgiven...all it would take is just a little push...

I've been married for a long time, and I do love my husband. But I miss the romantic guy he once was. There's this handsome new guy at work, and he's been checking me out. A little fling, to put a bit of excitement back into my life wouldn't hurt, would it? After all, everybody does it....and I am under Grace. I'm already forgiven...so why not?

I've decided to let my poor old uncle live a bit longer. But I can't stop thinking about all that stuff...he wouldn't miss one or two of his valuable pieces of jewelry....and I could pay off that loan. And after all, I'm under Grace. God doesn't even see what I do as sin...

There's a new girl at work. She's younger than me, and she's very pretty. She's getting all the attention I was getting before she showed up. I don't like her. But I know....I'll start a couple of nasty rumors about her...if the boss thinks she has a dark past, he will fire her...and I'll have my spotlight back again. I know there used to be a law against this kind of stuff...but that law was nailed to the cross...right?

And really...that old nut about not coveting is so old it has long ago turned to dust. So, I'm jealous of my friend's new car. Big deal!
Right?

Any comments from any OSASer would be appreciated.
Let's see how the doctrine works in real life....

Yeah this is off topic...

 

[Barrd]

Why would a Christian do anything immoral? You speak nonsense or you have a shallow view of love.

Why?
Because the human heart is desperately wicked, Justaname.
Because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Because we are all born with a sinful nature.
Like Paul, we want to keep the law of God...but our flesh has other ideas.
Because we are easily led into temptation.
Because we have vicious enemy who is just waiting for us to slip.....

For all of these reasons....and then some.

 

[Barrd]

Yeah this is off topic...

Would you dare to answer the challenge if I were to start a new thread?

 

[justaname]

Oh...you mean the Ten Commandments.
Love.

No the 10 commandments are apportioned to the 613 mitzvot in the Mosaic covenant with all its ordinances and statutes...(cf the Torah)



We as Christians are held to the Royal Law...love.
This is the teaching of the Christ and His apostles.

 

[justaname]

Why?
Because the human heart is desperately wicked, Justaname.
Because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Because we are all born with a sinful nature.
Like Paul, we want to keep the law of God...but our flesh has other ideas.
Because we are easily led into temptation.
Because we have vicious enemy who is just waiting for us to slip.....

For all of these reasons....and then some.

Are you not quickened by the power of the Holy Spirit? Has not the love of God pricked you in the heart leaving His law of love on you?

Are you looking to give the enemy a foothold?

 

[Barrd]

No the 10 commandments are apportioned to the 613 mitzvot in the Mosaic covenant with all its ordinances and statutes...(cf the Torah)



We as Christians are held to the Royal Law...love.
This is the teaching of the Christ and His apostles.

Mat 22:34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So, a lawyer asked Him a question about the law.
I shouldn't have to ask you "what law"...the guy was a Pharisee.
And He answered.
The first and great commandment "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind"....would involve not worshiping any other God, not making or worshiping idols, not using His Name as a curse...even keeping His sacred day.
And the second "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" would include giving the people around you a day of rest, caring for your parents, obviously not killing anyone, certainly loving your spouse would include keeping your marriage vows, loving others would sort of preclude stealing from them, or spreading vicious lies about them, and certainly if you love others you will rejoice their good fortune rather than seethe with jealousy.

Jesus has very neatly summed up all ten of them in two great commandments and at the same time has shown us that those commandments always were all about love.
Quite a Guy, our Jesus!

 

[justaname]

Would you dare to answer the challenge if I were to start a new thread?

Answer:
Again you accuse of antinomianism. Something I do not hold to...

Classic straw-man you continually erect...

 

[Barrd]

Answer:
Again you accuse of antinomianism. Something I do not hold to...

Classic straw-man you continually erect...

Actually, I never accused you of aninomianism.
I merely asked you what the word meant, and explained to you that you have followers who have been quoting you without understanding you.
Accusing you would have been the last thing on my mind.
I've said throughout all of this that I believe that you mean well, and that you are sincere.
It's no shame to have fallen for a false doctrine...especially one that seems to be as widespread as this one.
I guess I just need to get my nose out of the books and pay attention to what's going on around me. I was not aware that this thing had gotten so popular....

Of course, it's not hard to see why it's caught on....especially in today's crazy world...

 

[Barrd]

Are you not quickened by the power of the Holy Spirit? Has not the love of God pricked you in the heart leaving His law of love on you?

Are you looking to give the enemy a foothold?

You asked why "Christians" would do immoral things.
I answered you.
The enemy already has a foothold.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Now, if the Apostle had this kind of battle with his flesh....what makes you think other Christians do not?

And please...don't tell me you've never been tempted to sin. You have sinned, just like everyone else.
How do I know?
Because the Bible has said that ALL have sinned....and you are definitely one of "all"....

 

[justaname]

Actually, I never accused you of aninomianism.
I merely asked you what the word meant, and explained to you that you have followers who have been quoting you without understanding you.
Accusing you would have been the last thing on my mind.
I've said throughout all of this that I believe that you mean well, and that you are sincere.
It's no shame to have fallen for a false doctrine...especially one that seems to be as widespread as this one.
I guess I just need to get my nose out of the books and pay attention to what's going on around me. I was not aware that this thing had gotten so popular....

Of course, it's not hard to see why it's caught on....especially in today's crazy world...

That entire post is something an antinomian would say...not someone who holds to the perseverance of the saints...you like to keep the two synomonous...hence the straw-man and accusations...

 

[Barrd]

To do anything immoral, even thinking immoral thoughts is against God. It is unloving.

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


I'm sure I could find others, but it's getting late...

What I'm sure of is that there is nothing at all in the NT that would say that the Ten Commandments are no longer valid. I don't see Paul telling anyone that it is okay to commit adultery, for instance, or to steal, or to neglect one's parents...or any of the rest of them
As for the Sabbath....he kept it himself, and so did all of the rest of the Apostles.
It is written....

 

[Barrd]

That entire post is something an antinomian would say...not someone who holds to the perseverance of the saints...you like to keep the two synomonous...hence the straw-man and accusations...

Let me tell you a little secret.
I'd never heard the word "antinomian" until it started cropping up in posts your followers were making.
Then, when I asked one of them what it meant, he couldn't answer me.
So I Googled it.

I had told him that you probably knew what it meant....giving you credit for having a more extensive vocabulary than my own....and if you knew me you would know that, coming from me, that is a high compliment indeed.

Just because I do not agree with you does not mean that I do not like and admire you, Justaname.
I'm very sorry you can't find it in yourself to return my affection.

 

[justaname]

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


I'm sure I could find others, but it's getting late...

What I'm sure of is that there is nothing at all in the NT that would say that the Ten Commandments are no longer valid. I don't see Paul telling anyone that it is okay to commit adultery, for instance, or to steal, or to neglect one's parents...or any of the rest of them
As for the Sabbath....he kept it himself, and so did all of the rest of the Apostles.
It is written....

This argument is invalid...it speaks nothing to keeping the Shabbat being a Christian ordinance.

And the Scripture you posted supports my case...

Also just because Paul went to the synagauges to preach Christ crucified does not mean he was observing the Shabbat.

We as Christians are at liberty to observe or not observe. Our Master is able to make us stand either way. If what we do we do in good conscience we will be accepted in the eyes of the Lord.

 

[Barrd]

1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. - Hebrews 6:1-2

Why when Jesus has given us of His Spirit, so many want to bring us back to the letter? Is it because they are still in need of a tutor?

Yes? Why did you stop there?

Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Wait...those who were once enlightened...and have tasted of the heavenly gift....and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost...and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come...in other words, these people were born again Christians?
And if they shall fall away....

But wait...what happened to their eternal security?
Something is definitely amiss here....

 

[Barrd]

This argument is invalid...it speaks nothing to keeping the Shabbat being a Christian ordinance.

And the Scripture you posted supports my case...

Also just because Paul went to the synagauges to preach Christ crucified does not mean he was observing the Shabbat.

We as Christians are at liberty to observe or not observe. Our Master is able to make us stand either way. If what we do we do in good conscience we will be accepted in the eyes of the Lord.

Paul could preach Christ crucified any day of the week....and I'm pretty sure he did just that.
But he still went to the synagogue every Sabbath day.
And so did the rest of the Apostles.
Just as Jesus had done....