Sabbath-Keeping

[UppsalaDragby]

Upp, if I've misrepresented your position, it is only because you make it IMPOSSIBLE to ascertain it - many of your posts are long winded and tiresome. Here's your opportunity to set the record straight so that I can avoid any further misrepresentation of your position, if I am indeed guilty of having done so:

Are Christians obligated to keep the Ten Commandments or are Christians at liberty to break the Ten Commandments?

As long and tiresome you think my posts are, I have ALREADY made it clear what "my" position is. And here you go trying to muddy up the issues by pulling the loaded "have you stopped beating your wife?" kind of questions. It's those kinds of questions that necessitate long, tiresome answers, especially when the answers I have given are constantly being ignored.

But here is my response once again:

NO, we are NOT "obligated" to keep the 10 commandments due to the fact that we are not under those commandments. But don't even TRY for a second try to twist this around, which sabbatarians have the habit of doing, to making it seem that I am saying that it is OK to indulge in practices that are directly contrary to them. We have a completely different legal system that takes care of sin in a way than the Mosiac laws were unable to do. So what is so IMPOSSIBLE to ascertain about that?

Someone who is under a certain law is definitely "obligated" to keep it. Otherwise what would the point of having that law be? But just as Abraham, (you know... the one ascribed as being the father of faith, was deemed righteous by God LONG BEFORE the 10 commandments were given), so are we even deemed righteous by God APART from the Mosaic law. Our obligation is to keep a law based on faith - the law of Christ, not a law that scripture declares is NOT based on faith. Get it? Or am I being too wordy and tiresome here?

Notice that my response is short, concise, to the point - please respond in kind.

And what exactly does that prove? Short, concise and to the point is fine, but short, concise and biblically correct responses are much better!

These issues are NOT solved by short, sweet, and snappy answers. That is why this thread is 19 pages long! And my posts would not have to be so long at all if I didn't have to keep repeating the same things over and over again without getting any acknowledgment from you that you have understood them or can respond to them appropriately. Would they???

It is people who talk past each other that make these discussions unnecessaritly long. And since I have dealt with ALL of your questions, whereas you have continuously ignored mine, I don't think I am the one here guilty of doing so.

 

[mjrhealth]

The enemy is good at twisitng the truth that is why this post has got so long and why so many choose to forgoe grace by keeping the law as if it was there right. Leave them theer it is there choice. Jesus tried to correct the religious and look where it got Him what hope do we have. They will suffer the consequence leave them in Gods hands, they are now without excuse they have heard the truth and denied it. Think on it, if you deny the truth you deny Jesus for He is the truth. Plain and simple.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Let this die its going nowhere.

You cannot change there hearts.

In All His Love

 

[Phoneman777]

As long and tiresome you think my posts are, I have ALREADY made it clear what "my" position is. And here you go trying to muddy up the issues by pulling the loaded "have you stopped beating your wife?" kind of questions. It's those kinds of questions that necessitate long, tiresome answers, especially when the answers I have given are constantly ignored.

But here is my response once again:

NO, we are NOT "obligated" to keep the 10 commandments due to the fact that we are not under those commandments. But don't even TRY for a second try to twist this around to making it seem that I am saying that it is OK to indulge in practices that are directly contrary to them. We have a completely different legal system that takes care of sin in a way than the Mosiac laws were unable to do. So what is so IMPOSSIBLE to ascertain about that?

Someone who is under a certain law is definitely "obligated" to keep it. Otherwise what would the point of having that law be? But just as Abraham, (you know... the one ascribed as being the father of faith, was deemed righteous by God LONG BEFORE the 10 commandments were given), so are we even deemed righteous by God APART from the Mosaic law. Our obligation is to keep a law based on faith - the law of Christ, not a law that scripture declares is NOT based on faith. Get it? Or am I being too wordy and tiresome here?


And what exactly does that prove? Short, concise and to the point is fine, but short, concise and biblically correct responses are much better!

These issues are NOT solved by short, sweet, and snappy answers. That is why this thread is 19 pages long! And my posts would not have to be so long at all if I didn't have to keep repeating the same things over and over again without getting any acknowledgment from you that you have understood them or can respond to them appropriately. Would they???

Upp, I don't ask "have you stopped beating your wife" questions and your accusation of such is absurd. Your failure to offer short, concise answers is because only lengthy responses afford you the necessary space to weave your webs of convoluted ingenuity and subtle theories because of the paradox of "why are we not at liberty to break a law that we are not obligated to keep?"

To paraphrase your own words, "we don't have to keep the Ten Commandments but we are not at liberty to engage in practices that are contrary to them" is the height of such convolution. How can you expect a thinking, rational person to not see this for what it is: theological doublespeak? It's like saying we are at liberty to drive the Autobahn as fast as we want as long as we don't drive contrary to speed limits. Absolute nonsense. Just as nonsensical as when you say that "thou shalt not commit adultery" was only given to the Israelites when Joseph understood that very thing was sin CENTURIES before Sinai.

Your position on this issue cannot be ascertained because you refuse to take one! By your own admission, you claim that we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments and the Scriptures themselves say, "he that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him."

 

[Phoneman777]

The enemy is good at twisitng the truth that is why this post has got so long and why so many choose to forgoe grace by keeping the law as if it was there right. Leave them theer it is there choice. Jesus tried to correct the religious and look where it got Him what hope do we have. They will suffer the consequence leave them in Gods hands, they are now without excuse they have heard the truth and denied it. Think on it, if you deny the truth you deny Jesus for He is the truth. Plain and simple.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Let this die its going nowhere.

You cannot change there hearts.

In All His Love

Faith without works is dead faith. Since when did salvation by grace through faith cease to include the concept of Christian "faithfulness"? It happened when the wolves came in among true believers and began to draw away disciples after themselves.

 

[zeke25]

1 John 2

1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, [Yahoshua the] Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (The verse most especially applies to the SDA).
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that [Yahoshua] is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Here is what we have learned about the SDA. They deny Christ Yahoshua, because they do not believe in His shed Blood as the propitiation for the sins of men and they mock the grace of God. They do not believe the Bible, they think it is an RCC deception, but that doesn’t stop them from being hypocrites and using it when they think it is to their advantage. They ignore Scriptures they don’t like and they twist Scripture with a finesse that would make a demon envious. They also don’t mind holding hands with the RCC or Adolf Hitler when it please them to do so. They accuse the Body of Christ day and night. They are filled with pride and ignorance - they are Biblically illiterate. They do not have the Holy Spirit as their guide and teacher, otherwise they would be released from their mind-trap. They do not consider themselves worthy of eternal life. Nineteen pages of their testimony brings us to this summary.


mjr is right. They have made their own bed. Let them lie in it. You can pray for them, but it is a waste of your time to dialogue with them.

 

[Phoneman777]

1 John 2

1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, [Yahoshua the] Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (The verse most especially applies to the SDA).
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that [Yahoshua] is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Here is what we have learned about the SDA. They deny Christ Yahoshua, because they do not believe in His shed Blood as the propitiation for the sins of men and they mock the grace of God. They do not believe the Bible, they think it is an RCC deception, but that doesn’t stop them from being hypocrites and using it when they think it is to their advantage. They ignore Scriptures they don’t like and they twist Scripture with a finesse that would make a demon envious. They also don’t mind holding hands with the RCC or Adolf Hitler when it please them to do so. They accuse the Body of Christ day and night. They are filled with pride and ignorance - they are Biblically illiterate. They do not have the Holy Spirit as their guide and teacher, otherwise they would be released from their mind-trap. They do not consider themselves worthy of eternal life. Nineteen pages of their testimony brings us to this summary.


mjr is right. They have made their own bed. Let them lie in it. You can pray for them, but it is a waste of your time to dialogue with them.

Zeke, I wish you could have kept the Sabbath holy with me yesterday and seen how blessed an experience it was. Great message, great fellowship meal afterward, great "sweet hour of prayer" as we gathered to pray for the church, each other, and read the Scriptures, and visitation with the brethren - it was almost sunset before we got back home. The blessing of the Sabbath, which God has not place in no other day, was evident to us all and it is encouraging to know that as this world creeps ever closer to the fulfillment of end time prophecy, the scattered sheep are going to continue to polarize into one of two camps: either Catholicism or Seventh-day Adventism. I'll leave you with a quote from Rome:

"Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these two alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. COMPROMISE IS IMPOSSIBLE." - The Catholic Mirror, December 23, 1893

 

[mjrhealth]

Sily thing Phoneman, to keep teh Sabbath holy you must refainfn from your own works, going to church, driving your car even cooking on the sabbath is breaking teh sabbath as they are all you own works and you have not rested, so you see you have not done what you said you would do, and so againg broke the law , "all of them" and by your own admission condemend yourself.

But as jesus said,

Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh_5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

There is no life in the law, it only brings death. I am not worried about you phaneman, you are not our concern its all teh young christans whom get dragged onto that deceptin that are our concern As Jesus put it,

Mar_2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I hope you understand what He said.

in All His Love

 

[Jun2u]

Any one of the three SDA members namely, Phoneman777, Brakelite, and heretoeternity may answer.

Why are you and your denomination so adamantly insist on teaching the observance of the Seventh Day Sabbath? Is it true because your church founder, Ellen G. White saw in a vision a halo above the fourth commandment?

From reading the Scriptures, I’ve found that the Sabbath was only a sign (shadow) between God and Ancient Israel, that is the substance (reality) pointed to Christ Jesus.

A ominous warning for us today! Just as God rested on the seventh day from His work of creation, so was Israel to rest and not do any kind of work on the Sabbath, for the punishment of disobedience was very severe, (Numbers 15:32-35) spiritually speaking, we are not to work for our salvation either because Jesus did all the work to save us (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The above, I believe is the thrust/theme of the Seventh Day Sabbath, but now, in the New Testament, God changed the day from Saturday to Sunday as indicated explicitly in Matthew 28:1

For further explanations see my post #521 above.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Axehead]

When our hearts are captured by a doctrine which does not conform us to godliness we can have no understanding of spiritual things. We will remain in spiritual darkness blinded by religious traditions which do not fulfill the Law of Christ. This is how covenant is broken with God.

 

[zeke25]

Any one of the three SDA members namely, Phoneman777, Brakelite, and heretoeternity may answer.

Why are you and your denomination so adamantly insist on teaching the observance of the Seventh Day Sabbath? Is it true because your church founder, Ellen G. White saw in a vision a halo above the fourth commandment?

From reading the Scriptures, I’ve found that the Sabbath was only a sign (shadow) between God and Ancient Israel, that is the substance (reality) pointed to Christ Jesus.

A ominous warning for us today! Just as God rested on the seventh day from His work of creation, so was Israel to rest and not do any kind of work on the Sabbath, for the punishment of disobedience was very severe, (Numbers 15:32-35) spiritually speaking, we are not to work for our salvation either because Jesus did all the work to save us (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The above, I believe is the thrust/theme of the Seventh Day Sabbath, but now, in the New Testament, God changed the day from Saturday to Sunday as indicated explicitly in Matthew 28:1

For further explanations see my post #521 above.

To God Be The Glory

Welcome back Jun2u. Still no defense for your theory from outerspace regarding Mt. 28:1? This ought to be fun, one looney bin trying to out shuffle another looney bin: Both saying, “I can make up outerspace explanations to explain Scripture faster and better than you. Anything you can do I can do better (musical notes).” And neither looney is using Scripture - that means the sky (or outerspace) is the limit. Whatever either of them can dream up is fair game.

Extremely sad though. Immortal souls are at stake here. Learn the fear of God.

 

[zeke25]

Any one of the three SDA members namely, Phoneman777, Brakelite, and heretoeternity may answer.

Why are you and your denomination so adamantly insist on teaching the observance of the Seventh Day Sabbath? Is it true because your church founder, Ellen G. White saw in a vision a halo above the fourth commandment?

From reading the Scriptures, I’ve found that the Sabbath was only a sign (shadow) between God and Ancient Israel, that is the substance (reality) pointed to Christ Jesus.

A ominous warning for us today! Just as God rested on the seventh day from His work of creation, so was Israel to rest and not do any kind of work on the Sabbath, for the punishment of disobedience was very severe, (Numbers 15:32-35) spiritually speaking, we are not to work for our salvation either because Jesus did all the work to save us (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The above, I believe is the thrust/theme of the Seventh Day Sabbath, but now, in the New Testament, God changed the day from Saturday to Sunday as indicated explicitly in Matthew 28:1

For further explanations see my post #521 above.

To God Be The Glory

Jun2u,

What do you think Luke 6:1 means? "And it happened on the second chief sabbath...".

zeke25

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Upp, I don't ask "have you stopped beating your wife" questions and your accusation of such is absurd.

Yes you ARE asking those kinds of questions since what you are suggesting is that either one is "obliged" to keep the 10 commandments or one is "breaking" them, which is more absurd than anything I have said. I could pose the same kind of wife-beating question to you. In fact I will... so let's see how you deal with it:

Are Christians obligated to keep the Commandments concerning circucision or are they at liberty to break the laws concerning circucision?

Any answer to that question Phoneman?

In fact, what laws in the Mosaic Covenant do you claim we are "at liberty to break"??

This should be interesting!

Your failure to offer short, concise answers is because only lengthy responses afford you the necessary space to weave your webs of convoluted ingenuity and subtle theories because of the paradox of "why are we not at liberty to break a law that we are not obligated to keep?"

And here you go, doing it again...

Is that concise enough for you?

To paraphrase your own words, "we don't have to keep the Ten Commandments but we are not at liberty to engage in practices that are contrary to them" is the height of such convolution. How can you expect a thinking, rational person to not see this for what it is: theological doublespeak? It's like saying we are at liberty to drive the Autobahn as fast as we want as long as we don't drive contrary to speed limits. Absolute nonsense. Just as nonsensical as when you say that "thou shalt not commit adultery" was only given to the Israelites when Joseph understood that very thing was sin CENTURIES before Sinai.

And I have dealt with that kind of foolish objection before.

Concise enough?

Your position on this issue cannot be ascertained because you refuse to take one! By your own admission, you claim that we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments and the Scriptures themselves say, "he that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him."

And I have also explained this time and time again to you. But here it is again:

If you were told that you are no longer under the Canadian law to keep a certain speed limit, due to the fact that you moved across the border to some place in the United States, does that implicitly mean that you are therefore free to drive faster than what the Canadian law prescribes? NO it doesn't!

Ironically, rather than being "rational and reasonable", you are adhering to faulty logic!

We are no longer under the Mosaic law - that's a scriptural FACT - but one that does NOT indicate that any and everything the Mosiac law forbids is therefore something we are completely free to engage in. What we are obligated to do is study the law that actually applies to US, not one that was given to the Jews! That law was part of a Covenant,and as such it is not subject to eithere changes or divisions. It is a package deal. Period!

Is that too hard for you to understand?

Or am I being to wordy for you to even bother reading what I say?

 

[zeke25]

Any one of the three SDA members namely, Phoneman777, Brakelite, and heretoeternity may answer.

Why are you and your denomination so adamantly insist on teaching the observance of the Seventh Day Sabbath? Is it true because your church founder, Ellen G. White saw in a vision a halo above the fourth commandment?

From reading the Scriptures, I’ve found that the Sabbath was only a sign (shadow) between God and Ancient Israel, that is the substance (reality) pointed to Christ Jesus.



The above, I believe is the thrust/theme of the Seventh Day Sabbath, but now, in the New Testament, God changed the day from Saturday to Sunday as indicated explicitly in Matthew 28:1

Jun2u,

You know, I'm only picking on you because you will not engage the subject. You introduced the subject, twice in this thread that I know of, and you will not discuss it.

It's good to be prepared when you present your theology, but you should keep an opened mind. Let it be challenged. Discuss it. Maybe you might learn something, maybe you could even be wrong. Or, maybe you are right. But how will you know if your mind is locked into an untested idea?

Maybe your church teaches it. Maybe you have a favorite scholar who wrote a book on it. None of that means that it is correct. It might be the stupidest heresy in the world, but there will be some scholar out there who supports it. I've had serious people tell me that an asteroid flew by venus, or was it mars, and sucked all the water off of it. Maybe the man in the asteroid had a straw, I'm not sure how it was done. Maybe there were hidden UFO's with laser powered vacuum cleaners. Then the asteroid flew by earth and dumped the water (lift hatch on the back of the rock maybe). Shazam, Noah's flood began. And these guys are serious and they have a lunatic scholar and his book to support them.

Stop hiding.

BTW, they are ex-SDA. Might even still be SDA on the fringe. So, I don't know if they got this stuff from the SDA or concocted it on their own. I suspect that the asteroid was dispatched from the Mormon's god's planet to give his subjects a bath. But that's just a theory, I have no Scriptural support.

zeke25

 

[Phoneman777]

Are Christians obligated to keep the Commandments concerning circucision or are they at liberty to break the laws concerning circucision?

Any answer to that question Phoneman?

"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD." 1 Corinthians 7:19 KJV (Y'know, "do not steal, do not lie, do not kill, remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, etc." and the rest of the COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.)

Now, answer me a question: Are we at liberty to break the Ten Commandments that you claim we are not obligated to keep?

 

[UppsalaDragby]

"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD." 1 Corinthians 7:19 KJV (Y'know, "do not steal, do not lie, do not kill, remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, etc." and the rest of the COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.)

And your evidence that circumcision is NOT the COMMANDMENT OF GOD is what?????

Did Moses invent the idea of circmcision? Did Abraham? Or was it a commandment given by God?

An answer please!

Now, answer me a question: Are we at liberty to break the Ten Commandments that you claim we are not obligated to keep?

Are you still beating your wife?

 

[Axehead]

I think the Adventists are dwelling in the Tabernacle of Moses rather than the Tabernacle of David. The Church had the same problem in Acts 15.

 

[mjrhealth]

I think it goes to show how many christians do not know christ and have never received the Holy Spirit as He said.

Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

trying to be Jews living under the old covene\ant instead of Christians living under the new, and church well.

Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine(Holy Spirit) into old bottles(Old Covenant); else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

Just look at the state of religion.

In All His Love

 

[Phoneman777]

And your evidence that circumcision is NOT the COMMANDMENT OF GOD is what?????

Did Moses invent the idea of circmcision? Did Abraham? Or was it a commandment given by God?

An answer please!


Are you still beating your wife?

You still haven't answered my question of "How are we not at liberty to break the Ten Commandments that you claim we are not obligated to keep"?

To answer your question:

• We are not obligated to be circumcised, according to Paul. (1 Corinthians 7:19 KJV)
• "All His commandments...stand fast forever and ever" (Psalms 111:8 KJV)
• Therefore, we must conclude that "circumcision" cannot be included among "His commandments".

"Come now, let us reason together."

 

[Phoneman777]

I marvel how professed Christians question the salvation of we who claim that we must obey the Ten Commandments when Jesus Himself said that if any man shall do His commandments, and teach men so, the same shall be called "great" in the kingdom of heaven, but if any man shall break any one of the LEAST OF THESE COMMANDMENTS (SABBATH???) and teach men so, the same shall be called "least" in the kingdom of heaven.

BTW, the opprobrium "least" is directed at lawbreakers down here by heavenly beings up there, lest anyone seek the false security of believing that "least in the kingdom" means they'll still be in the kingdom. Revelation 22:14 KJV plainly says that "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may...enter in through the gates to the city."

 

[mjrhealth]

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

And that line is a concern for as He said, Narrow is the way that leads to Life, than He says I am the way. yet so few find Him.

Come now, let us reason together."

It mens "reasoning", that keeping Him from God and the truth. All mens religion can be wrong but God will always be right.

In All His Love