Sabbath-Keeping

[face2face]

Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

This lesson is not an easy one mjrhealth but needful in forum discussions such as these.
The verse supporting your thoughts is true indeed, however does it apply to this thread/discussion?

See the expression “you have fallen away?” well it should be understood, not in the sense that grace has been taken away from them, but in the sense that they have turned their backs on it. The NEB “you have fallen out of the domain of God’s grace”; or “you put yourself outside the range of his grace”. One may also say “you have put yourself in a place where God’s goodness cannot find you,” “… where God cannot be good to you,” or “… show you his goodness.” What I mean to say is those Galatians who were turning their backs on Christ and the Gospel were going back to the Mosaic Law.

I havnt read anywhere in this thread those who firstly deny Jesus Christ and are self confessed Judaizers who believe righteousness can be only obtain through law keeping.
Correct if I am wrong.
xtremes begat xtremes but we must try not to apply words of condemnation where only a slight correction in understanding is required.
F2F

 

[zeke25]

Are you implying some here reject Grace?
Surely not - I know many SDA who know all to well the meaning of His Grace.
Here's what I think not the Lord...truth is rarely found in those who speak in absolutes.
Just saying.
F2F

F2F,

Some SDA here not only reject the grace of God, they mock it openly, which means they mock the shed Blood of Christ. Thus, they are unrepentant blasphemers of Christ. Would you like the post(s) number? So you know many SDA. Are you SDA or former SDA?

zeke25

 

[Phoneman777]

I havnt read anywhere in this thread those who firstly deny Jesus Christ and are self confessed Judaizers who believe righteousness can be only obtain through law keeping.

That's because there is NO ONE who here who is teaching that salvation comes by any other means than grace through faith in Jesus alone. But, because some here cannot face the unwelcome truth that obedience is the evidence that one has been saved that same grace through faith in Jesus (and a lack of obedience demonstrates a yet unconverted, unsaved spiritual condition), false accusations of Judaizing abound, and the plain texts of Scripture which attest to this truth are simply ignored. "Hereby we do know that we know Him IF we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a LIAR and the truth is not in Him." Yes, that is speaking of the very ones who let accusations of Judaizing fly.

 

[zeke25]

Matthew 15:13-14 KJV, "13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

 

[Phoneman777]

Again I have to point out yet another false conclusion you are making.

Not only am I saying that it is not wrong to "break" the 10 commandments (although of course it is impossible to break commandments that you are not under), I am also not saying that you are free to "disregard" them.

All you are doing here is clothing the same argument using different words.

Otherwise, what do you mean by "disregarding" the 10 commandments, unless you are implying that disregarding them is equivalent to breaking them.

What scripture teaches us is that we are under a different, and completely superiour covenant than the one given at Sinai. The new covenanat does not teach us that we are to "disregard" anything. It teaches us that we cannot keep the legalistic standards that the Old Covenant demanded and therefore have the opportunity to accept an offer of grace - a form of grace that fulfills whatever is lacking.

Now listen to this, because it is important. There are TWO scenarios where grace is nullified:

1) when we consider the law to be something we should "disregard" (somthing you imply that I am saying and yet won't find me saying anywhere).

It's like saying to your son "don't run across the street" and then saying that if you do I will forgive you and therefore you should totally disregard what I told you in the first place. Or..

2) when we deceive ourselves into thinking that we have the ability to keep the moral standard demanded by God.

The only stance we can take that completely harmonizes with scripture is the one where we acknowledge what it actually says: we have a sinful, carnal nature that prevents us from keeping the standard that God demands, but have been given the opportunity to be born again and therefore identify ourselves with that "new" nature through faith. Faith is what "justifies the wicked" and "calls things that are not as though they were".

You are looking at the surface of things, and judging superficially, for the sake of defending your doctrine.

Bro, when you say that we are not obligated to keep them, then by default you are saying we are at liberty to break them, no matter what you claim. Honestly, I can't believe I'm having to argue this point. If you doubt me, then why don't you poll the members here. As a matter of fact, I think I will do that.

 

[Phoneman777]

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have a right to the Tree of Life and may enter into the gates to the city. For outside are (lawbreakers)." Revelation 22:14-15 KJV

 

[mjrhealth]

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

You are not interested in wheter we can break teh law or not, neither in teh truth all you seek to do is justify your religion which you cannot.

No one has said we are at liberty to break the law, we have said we are not under it a place where you choose to be.

Why dont you poll this question..

Without the Law would you - Kill, rape, lust hate, fight on purpose

Or this

Have you kept all teh commandments to the letter.

Its pointless discussing this topic ,teh answers have being given but you only seek teh answer that pleases you not the correct one.

Show me a man beside Christ who has kept the law, and I will show you a liar, a deceiver and a fool

Show me a man who keeps teh law and I will show you a man without grace.

In all His Love

 

[Phoneman777]

No one has said we are at liberty to break the law, we have said we are not under it a place where you choose to be.

"Not under the law" doesn't mean "not obligated to obey the law". It means "not under condemnation of the law". It's time for this false interpretation to die the death into which it has dragged so many unwary souls professing Christ.

The Two Great Commandments are a summary of the Ten Commandments - they are not a means by which we get around the Ten Commandments, because if one keeps the "Spirit of the Law", he automatically is keeping the "Letter of the Law" - unless you can show me a married man who cheats on his wife with a woman after which he has not lusted, etc.

 

[mjrhealth]

The Two Great Commandments are a summary of the Ten Commandments - they are not a means by which we get around the Ten Commandments

And you are correct, but you are not pefect as He is perfect and continlually break them wheter you want to or not, for those who isnsist on keeping teh law. theer is no grace. Grace is for us imperfect people, so we can be righteous through Chist who is perfect and His works.

And again to repeat myself

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

So for those whose righteousnes is in Christ the law is not theirs but for those who have not put on the righteousness of Christ it stands as their Judge.

In all His Love

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Bro, when you say that we are not obligated to keep them, then by default you are saying we are at liberty to break them, no matter what you claim.

No I am not! You are simply taking a part of what I say and excluding the rest in order to make it seem like you are correct. Dishonest is the word that comes to mind.

If one method to keep someone from conducting themsleves immorally fails and they are given a far superior method of reaching that goal, then disgarding the first for the benefit of the second does NOT mean that freedom from the first method justifies immoral behavior.

You are using faulty logic, ignoring what everyone else is saying, and stubbornly twisting words around! Christ never did that. The apostle Paul never did that. Only their adversaries stooped to such measures, claiming INCORRECTLY that they were against the law when they were not. What the did was provide a BETTER theology based on a BETTER Covenant.

So please,... address this matter honestly, instead of trying to twist things to your advantage. I have been honest in this discussion, which is my usual practice. All I am doing is asking you to do the same.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have a right to the Tree of Life and may enter into the gates to the city. For outside are (lawbreakers)." Revelation 22:14-15 KJV

Where does anything written by John mention the 10 commandments? John, through faith, became a disciple of the New Covenant. When he spoke of commandments then he spoke about what God was commanding people of THAT covenant. Otherwise, if you are not circumcised, then you had better go quickly and find someone with a knife. We have a better Covenant, with better promises and better commandments. Not only does the same John, that you falsely use to support your false doctrine nowhere mention the 10 commandments, he even points out what Gods commandments for Christians actually are:

"And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." (1 John 3:23)

You have never addressed this point. All you can do is the usual SDA side-step and claim that the 10 commandments are based on love (something I completely agree with), but with the insinuation that the REST of the Mosiac law was not. There is no escaping the fact that the ENTIRE Mosiac covenant was a unit - every single dot and title! SDAs rip things apart for the sake of defending their theology - something scripture does not allow.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

"Not under the law" doesn't mean "not obligated to obey the law". It means "not under condemnation of the law".

You don't even know what you are talking about. You are just throwing words around.

What does "obligation" mean to you? Obviously it means that you MUST do whatever it is you are obligated to do. So what you are saying is that we are not "under the condemnation of the law" because we keep it. Right?

Do you keep the law 100%, or do you not. I have ALREADY caught you out multiple times breaking the law you pretend to defend, and I am sure that if you answer honestly, which MOST SDAs and other legalists do, you neither keep the 10 commandments, nor anything else demanded by the Mosaic law.

So why pretend?????

 

[UppsalaDragby]

After 28 pages so far I have NOT found one single SDA that can accept my challenge, nor is willing to answer my questions.

I have 17 questions that I would like at least one of them address.

Why can't any of you do this?

 

[zeke25]

And you are correct, but you are not pefect as He is perfect and continlually break them wheter you want to or not, for those who isnsist on keeping teh law. theer is no grace. Grace is for us imperfect people, so we can be righteous through Chist who is perfect and His works.

And again to repeat myself

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

So for those whose righteousnes is in Christ the law is not theirs but for those who have not put on the righteousness of Christ it stands as their Judge.

In all His Love

I like this post. How true.

 

[Phoneman777]

Where does anything written by John mention the 10 commandments?

"Little children, keep yourselves from idols." - 1 John 5:21 KJV (According to John, the Second Commandment of the Ten Commandments is still binding upon Christians).

Paul said, "Let him that stole steal no more". That's the 8th Commandment which Paul forbids Christians to break.

 

[Phoneman777]

After 28 pages so far I have NOT found one single SDA that can accept my challenge, nor is willing to answer my questions.

I have 17 questions that I would like at least one of them address.

Why can't any of you do this?

Because you questions arise from a flawed mindset. Saying things like, "The Ten Commandments were only given to the Jews" when Jesus Himself said the Sabbath was made from the entire human race, is one such example.

 

[face2face]

That's because there is NO ONE who here who is teaching that salvation comes by any other means than grace through faith in Jesus alone. But, because some here cannot face the unwelcome truth that obedience is the evidence that one has been saved that same grace through faith in Jesus (and a lack of obedience demonstrates a yet unconverted, unsaved spiritual condition), false accusations of Judaizing abound, and the plain texts of Scripture which attest to this truth are simply ignored. "Hereby we do know that we know Him IF we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a LIAR and the truth is not in Him." Yes, that is speaking of the very ones who let accusations of Judaizing fly.

Greetings Phoneman

I surely believe the mocking and slanderous posts are less than helpful and go a long way in frustrating the purpose of God in this thread. Sadly, it is true that popular theology has almost obscured the principle of obedience as the basis of acceptance with God in Christ Jesus our Lord by its doctrine of "justification by faith" alone. However, a danger exists in going too far the other way. Can you speak to this danger?

The Son of Thunder knew a believer begins with keeping His commands to eventually keeping His Word (v5) - it's a process of the command working it's way from head to heart. The instruction here is speaking of the precepts found in the Lord Jesus Christ and nowhere else can they be found in their living form, perfectly.

Do you agree the Lord Jesus Christ is not a denomination? And no denomination is a wholesaler of absolute truth. None of us think as we ought and certainly don't obey as we ought though we use our hearts daily to find His ways.

You see a beauty in the Law and Commands of God, which all had their fulfillment in Jesus (well done). I also love the Law and the Prophets which subject matter has filled me with awe and wonder these past 20 years.

I could debate the Sabbath/ Law with you and maybe show you a thing or two, but I fear the contention in this thread is rather toxic and not a place of learning.

I will continue to read with interest.

In the Lords love
F2F

 

[mjrhealth]

Please let this be my last before around the circle we go again

2Co 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

In all His most abundant Love and Grace for those who are willing to receive of it.

 

[Phoneman777]

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

I marvel at how you seem to not be able to grasp that no one here is arguing about trusting in themselves or their works for righteousness. Unfortunately, I don't know any other way to explain it to you than this: Obedience is not nor ever will be the source of our righteousness, but is the EVIDENCE that the One Who is the source of our righteousness indeed sits enthroned upon our heart. Likewise, disobedience is the evidence to the contrary, no matter what a person may say or think.

 

[mjrhealth]

Hi Phoneman,

to finish this answer us all one question,

Show us one, yes just one person who walked this earth other than Christ who has managed to keep the law to the letter.

Just one.

You see than this whole Text,

Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Would become a lie.

In all His Love

You are welcome to carry the burden but not to lay it as a yoke of bondage on others.