Sabbath-Keeping

[ATP]

They weren't in need of having their strength renewed.

Yes they were Barrd. This passage below is describing life vs death, the road that leads to life vs the road that leads to destruction. These people were already saved. You can't obtain salvation over and over again every time you sin and repent. Salvation and justification only comes once in Rom 10:9-10 NIV and Eph 2:7-9 NIV. The word "salvation" here is simply in reference to life gained..

2 Cor 7:10 NIV For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

Remember what we discussed. Always ask yourself if God is contradictory. The answer is no because God is perfect. God doesn't say in one passage that you can lose your salvation and then later on He decides no, you cannot lose it. The Bible says that once we believe we have eternal life. This is how you perform solid exegesis. Is God contradictory..

John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

 

[zeke25]

This was your post to me:

The Barrd,

I know you are here for fellowship. I pray that the LORD will protect you in your innocence. But I am a Word (Word of God) person. I study and discern doctrines, passages, concepts, etc. We are all members of the same Body of Christ but we have different functions. Some are eyes, some ears, some toes, etc.

Seldom do I post something that I regret because it was in error. When I do, I recant it. My function in the Body is understood by few and approved by even fewer. I do that which I see my Father doing.

Let me give you an example of that which I have studied and teach that will not resonate with you or most anyone. But it is truth. "Church" is not in the Bible. "Church" is not a biblical doctrine. Now how many people in the church world are going to find a common ground with me to intelligently discuss this? Few. How many churches will invite me to speak, since I will preach against their organizational concept? None. Does this bother me? No, not at all. I do as I'm instructed, I'm not my own, I've been purchased by the Blood of Christ.

I could list more: Christ did not rise on Sunday; there is no time period called afternoon in the Bible; the Bible does not teach that a biblical day begins at sundown; the 7th day of Creation Week was not a Saturday therefore sabbath keeping was not instituted in Genesis; and many more such issues. And I'm not opening this up for discussion in this thread. If someone wants to discuss it, then start a thread and invite me over. My doctrines are written not to bring unity, they are written to cause division, to separate the brethren from the pretenders or self-deceived.

Zeke25

Notice what you said:

"I study and discern doctrines, passages, concepts, etc. We are all members of the same Body of Christ but we have different functions."
Here you implied that your "function" has to do with discerning doctrines, passages, concepts, etc.

And then you continue to tell me that "church" is not in the Bible, as if this were big news. But your interpretation doesn't "resonate" with people. They won't let you preach your ideas in their church, because you will preach against their church.
Obviously they don't appreciate you.

Next you go on to list several more such things that you have "discerned"...

This is the last rant of yours I will respond to.
You are like a child having a tantrum...
red faced and screaming, kicking your feet...
What you really need is a belt across the place where you sit, and some time out in your bedroom alone.

However, I will continue to pray for you.
I just will not continue to subject myself to your incredible ego.
You may not be through with me...but I am definitely through with you.
Our unpleasant association is at an end.

Barrd,

I guess this means you will not repent of your lies and false witnessing and will continue to fight God.

Accusing me of an incredible ego. Another blatant lie. The enemy of our souls always accuses us of the very thing he is doing.

On the local level here, it would behoove you to stop posting on this thread unless you return to the OP. This thread is about Sabbath Keeping. You have forgotten that too. You missed it the last time, you are the wolf in sheep's clothing.


Zeke25

 

[ATP]

1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

 

[Barrd]

Yes they were Barrd. This passage below is describing life vs death, the road that leads to life vs the road that leads to destruction. These people were already saved. You can't obtain salvation over and over again every time you sin and repent. Salvation and justification only comes once in Rom 10:9-10 NIV and Eph 2:7-9 NIV. The word "salvation" here is simply in reference to life gained..

2 Cor 7:10 NIV For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

Remember what we discussed. Always ask yourself if God is contradictory. The answer is no because God is perfect. God doesn't say in one passage that you can lose your salvation and then later on He decides no, you cannot lose it. The Bible says that once we believe we have eternal life. This is how you perform solid exegesis. Is God contradictory..

John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

The verses you cited do not have anything at all to do with whether or not a man can lose his salvation.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

No, God is not contradictory and no, the Bible does not contradict itself. Therefore we must consider every verse. Taking a few out of context while ignoring others that do not agree with whatever "doctrine" we're trying to create/prove is a mistake, at best. At worst it is intellectually dishonest.

Sure, you can "prove" almost anything that way...like the lady, back in the days of yahoo chat who built a lovely little doctrine which stated that God loves prostitutes and prefers them above everyone else. It was quite fascinating, and very convincing. Of course, she was trying to show just how false doctrines are spread....and I have never forgotten her lesson. She called it "The Church of the Holy Hooker". Of course, in order to make it work, you must depend heavily on your target audience not to read or study for themselves, but really, most people don't do much of that, anyway. It helps, too, if you can get them when they are new to Christianity. For some reason, newbies would rather have someone tell them what the Bible teaches rather than search the scriptures for themselves.
Whenever I encounter someone with what she taught me to call "canned scripture", warning bells go off in my brain.
This is another Church of the Holy Hooker. Scriptures taken out of context, and ignoring other scriptures that plainly do not agree. And twisting others to try to make them fit, as you are doing here. I do not blame you...it's obviously what you were taught.
But it isn't true.


2Co 7:8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.
2Co 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

When we put verse 9 back in the context from which you took it, we see that Paul's first letter had made the Corinthians sorry. A little investigation shows us why...Paul had called them on their sin. For instance, in 1Cor 5, we read about how the Corinthians tolerated sexual immorality among their number, and let them know that they needed to do something about it. Specifically, they were to excommunicate a man who had taken his step mother (his father's wife) as his own wife.
In any case, their sorrow led them to repentance...and that's where we need to sit up and take notice.
"godly sorrow" says the Apostle, "worketh repentance to salvation...but the sorrow of the world bringeth death."
Now, how you got that he was contrasting life and death here is a mystery. What he is contrasting is the difference between Godly sorrow, which leads to repentance, and worldly sorrow, which leads to death.

It's no use, ATP...I know how attractive the once saved, always saved doctrine is...and like all of Satan's lies, it does have a grain of truth in it. It is very true that Jesus will not cast us away, and yes, He will bring every single one that His Father has given Him into His Kingdom.
But it is not true that you just say a few magic words, get wet, and hey, presto--you can now do whatever you like, sin as much as you like, lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery or whatever your favorite sin is, and still expect to inherit the Kingdom of God. Yes, God is a loving, merciful, forgiving God...but He is also a just God, and a God of vengeance...don't ever forget that. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Barrd]

1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

I do like your new cup, ATP!

But my doc says coffee is bad for my old heart...

 

[ATP]

The verses you cited do not have anything at all to do with whether or not a man can lose his salvation.

Well, let's go over the scripture that you ignored. Break this down for me..

John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

 

[ATP]

I do like your new cup, ATP!

But my doc says coffee is bad for my old heart...

Break this one down too..1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

 

[Barrd]

Well, let's go over the scripture that you ignored. Break this down for me..

John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

That's a great verse.
Taken by itself, I can see how it might lead one to think that he can sin all he likes, and still go to heaven.
Of course, Jesus made other statements that John also recorded.
For instance:

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Evidently, believing alone is not enough. One must be born of water and of the Spirit, or they cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

And here, Jesus tells us that, unless we abide in Him, our fate will be the fire.

This is why I keep telling you...we need to consider all of what the Bible says...not just a verse here and there.

 

[Barrd]

Break this one down too..1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

Another great scripture.
If these were the only verses I knew, I would probably conclude, as you have, that my sin cannot separate me from God.
However, Paul had a great deal more to say.

Such as:

Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Do you think you are justified before God? No, not unless you are a doer of the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

It doesn't matter what you have believed, if you do these things, you will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Someone who has the Holy Spirit dwelling within them will show these fruits.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Did you think Paul was talking to the unsaved? Obviously, he was not.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

I don't think we can argue with the Spirit. There will be some who will depart from the faith.
And why?
They will believe those seducing spirits.
They will accept doctrines of devils.

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

Here again we see that there is a bit more to salvation than simple belief.
Obedience is also important.

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

There seems to be a danger that we could be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin...something, surely, to be avoided.
And there is yet another "if"...IF we hold on our confidence steadfast unto the end.

Do you see that there are many, many, many verses that tell us
1. Belief is just the beginning of our salvation. There is more to it than that. Remember, Satan believes in Jesus too...
and
2. Yes, I'm sorry, but yes...we can so sin as to lose our salvation.

OSAS is a lie.
Can you not hear the hissing in your ear? "You will not surely die".....

 

[Joyful]

Yes! Now you are preaching repentance for believers. But nowhere does it say if you do not repent, you lose salvation.

Have you read the book of Revelation?

Jesus says to the seven churches to repent of their imperfect faith.

Your searching of loop holes do not work. You are mocking God and Jesus with your kind of faith.

You need to learn to be true to Jesus instead of seeking loopholes to justify your perverted salvation.

 

[ATP]

That's a great verse.
Taken by itself, I can see how it might lead one to think that he can sin all he likes, and still go to heaven.
Of course, Jesus made other statements that John also recorded.
For instance:

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Evidently, believing alone is not enough. One must be born of water and of the Spirit, or they cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

And here, Jesus tells us that, unless we abide in Him, our fate will be the fire.

This is why I keep telling you...we need to consider all of what the Bible says...not just a verse here and there.

John 15:1-17 NIV - This passage is an allegory. Do you know what an allegory is. Without add or taking away from John 5:24, we can clearly understand the truth. Once we believe we then have eternal life. It's quite simple.

 

[Barrd]

John 15:1-17 NIV - This passage is an allegory. Do you know what an allegory is. Without add or taking away from John 5:24, we can clearly understand the truth. Once we believe we then have eternal life. It's quite simple.

al·le·go·ry

ˈaləˌɡôrē/

noun
noun: allegory; plural noun: allegories

1. 
   
   
   
   
   a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.
   "Pilgrim's Progress is an allegory of the spiritual journey"
   
   
   synonyms:
   
   parable, analogy, metaphor, symbol, emblem
   
   
   "Saramago's latest novel is an allegory of social disintegration"
   
   
   
   
   
   
   • 
     
     
     a symbol.
     
     
     
   
   
   
   
   

Two things.
First of all, saying "it is an allegory" does not in any way make that verse invalid. Of course, it is an allegory...Christ is not saying that He is literally a vine, or that we are literally branches. It was a reference that the people would understand. I can't figure out why you don't seem to understand it. It's not difficult at all. As long as the branch remains in the vine, it is nourished and can produce fruit. As long as we remain in Him, we will be nourished, and produce the fruit of the Spirit.
However, if the branch is separated from the vine, it will no longer be nourished, and it will wither and die. In the same way, if we do not remain in Christ, we, too, will lose our nourishment, and we will wither and die.
Now, a dead branch that does not produce fruit is useless...and such dead branches will be pruned away and burned.
In the same way, when we separate ourselves from Christ, we make ourselves of no use...we are as dead branches, good for nothing but to be cast into the fire.

Second, you only addressed one of the verses I posted. Why did you not address the other verse?

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus had much more to say in the other gospels as well, but for now, I think these two from John are enough to get on with...they show that there is more to salvation than simply believing.

 

[ATP]

First of all, saying "it is an allegory" does not in any way make that verse invalid.

For proof that you can lose your salvation? Yes, it is invalid. Similar to using Luke 16:19-31 parable to prove soul sleep is false.

 

[Barrd]

For proof that you can lose your salvation? Yes, it is invalid. Similar to using Luke 16:19-31 parable to prove soul sleep is false.

Not even close.
Jesus often spoke in parables. He used these little illustrations to make a point.

Here, the point was that we needed to keep ourselves in Him, or we would become as worthless as a dead branch, and would suffer the same fate.

In Luke 16: 19-21, the point was the rich man's lack of compassion. He also made the point that the rich man's brothers, representing unbelieving Jews, would not listen, even after He returned from the dead.
Yes, people do try to use this parable to prove their idea of what happens after death. As I've been saying, this is how these "doctrines" arise. Now, I'm not going to get into "soul sleep or not soul sleep" with anyone, because to me, it just isn't that important. Certainly not nearly as important as telling people that they cannot so sin as to lose their salvation, leading them to believe that they can keep a gay lover, or commit any kind of fornication, for that matter, including sexually abusing children...they can steal, or lie, or even murder...and God will still accept them into heaven.
This is a devil's lie. It doesn't even make sense. Why would Jesus go to all the trouble to come here and teach us how to walk in love if He really doesn't care what we do anyway? Why would He bother to suffer horribly and die for our sins, if our sins don't matter?
Yes, Satan is whispering in your ear, ATP.
What did he say to Eve in the garden?

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

And the result of that lie was that sin entered the world, along with it's nasty companion, death.
Satan's purpose hasn't changed...he still aims to separate us from God. And of course, he's going to target Christians.
His m.o. hasn't changed, either. It is still the lie.
In this case, it is the very same lie he told to poor, unsuspecting Eve back in Eden.
"Don't worry, ATP...you will not really die"....

But ATP...it is not true. It is not true now, any more than it was in the beginning.
Please, please, please....do not let your stubborn pride lead you...and not only you, but anyone who might listen to you...into hell.

 

[ATP]

Jesus often spoke in parables. He used these little illustrations to make a point.

The Bible tells me once I believe I have eternal life, and that is not from a parable.

 

[Barrd]

The Bible tells me once I believe I have eternal life, and that is not from a parable.

No, ATP...you have taken a handful of verses out of context, and ignored anything that doesn't fit into your false doctrine. You've been shown in no uncertain terms that there is much, much more to it. You cannot willfully sin and still expect to have eternal life. If that were true, then Jesus was wasting His time on the cross...making a fool of Himself and of all who follow Him. If that were true, then Heaven would be a very unpleasant place, full of unrepentant sinners...no better than the cess pool we live in on earth.
It's nothing more than an excuse for sin. Jesus says "repent"...but Satan says "no need! You can keep your gay lover, you can continue to rape and murder your little ones, you can continue to lie to your spouse while you have sex with other people, you can shoot up a grade school and kill innocent children and their teachers, you can set fire to churches...you can do anything you want, but as long as you "believe", you can be sure you're going to heaven anyway." And you actually believe this nonsense?

You could only believe such a thing if you blot out all that Christ taught. Forget the Sermon on the Mount. Forget the Beatitudes. Forget the narrow way to life. Forget all about taking up your cross to follow Him. I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that believing in Him just might include believing His words?

You have ignored all those other verses I posted for you, choosing instead to cling to those few.
It is becoming obvious that you are entrenched in a strong delusion...you have not received the love of the truth. You prefer the lie.
But, ATP, the lie will not save you.

Ahh, well....if you choose to ignore Jesus Christ, Himself, I suppose there's nothing I can say that will change your mind.
I am sorry for you, ATP, I truly am. I can only pray that one day you will repent.
In Christian love, I do wish you all the best, my friend...good luck to you...and God help those who are influenced by you.

 

[ATP]

No, ATP...you have taken a handful of verses out of context, and ignored anything that doesn't fit into your false doctrine. You've been shown in no uncertain terms that there is much, much more to it. You cannot willfully sin and still expect to have eternal life. If that were true, then Jesus was wasting His time on the cross...making a fool of Himself and of all who follow Him. If that were true, then Heaven would be a very unpleasant place, full of unrepentant sinners...no better than the cess pool we live in on earth.
It's nothing more than an excuse for sin. Jesus says "repent"...but Satan says "no need! You can keep your gay lover, you can continue to rape your little ones, you can continue to lie to your spouse while you have sex with other people, you can shoot up a grade school and kill innocent children and their teachers, you can set fire to churches...you can do anything you want, but as long as you "believe", you can be sure you're going to heaven anyway." And you actually believe this nonsense?

You could only believe such a thing if you blot out all that Christ taught. Forget the Sermon on the Mount. Forget the Beatitudes. Forget the narrow way to life. Forget all about taking up your cross to follow Him. I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that believing in Him just might include believing His words?

You have ignored all those other verses I posted for you, choosing instead to cling to those few.
It is becoming obvious that you are entrenched in a strong delusion...you have not received the love of the truth. You prefer the lie.
But, ATP, the lie will not save you.

Ahh, well....if you choose to ignore Jesus Christ, Himself, I suppose there's nothing I can say that will change your mind.
I am sorry for you, ATP, I truly am. I can only pray that one day you will repent.
In Christian love, I do wish you all the best, my friend...good luck to you...and God help those who are influenced by you.

God isn't contradictory. Once I believe I have eternal life. How is that out of context?

 

[Barrd]

God isn't contradictory. Once I believe I have eternal life. How is that out of context?

*sigh*

Alright, ATP. I'm not going to repost all those verses for you again, since you ignored them the first time. But I can't just sit by and let you amble along on a path that will lead you to hell, either.
I take after my Father...I am not willing that any should perish...

Consider, then, this verse:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

 

[ATP]

*sigh*

Alright, ATP. I'm not going to repost all those verses for you again, since you ignored them the first time. But I can't just sit by and let you amble along on a path that will lead you to hell, either.
I take after my Father...I am not willing that any should perish...

Consider, then, this verse:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

It's simple. Either you believe or you don't. Do you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead?

 

[Barrd]

It's simple. Either you believe or you don't. Do you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead?

I have believed in Him since I was a little girl of 12, the year my grandmother gave me my first "big girl" Bible for Christmas. I devoured that Book...I had read it through, cover to cover, by Easter...although I admit, I skipped through a bit when it came to Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
By the time I had read the Gospels, Jesus had become my Hero.
That was 53 years ago...wow, that's a long time, isn't it?
I've read it many, many, many times since then...

To answer your question, then...yes, ATP, I am quite sure that Jesus is alive.

(Make that 52 years ago...I won't be 65 till October.)