Salvation before Glorification of Christ?!

[Enoch111]

Are Jews under that Old Covenant, where their faith is credited as righteousness, or is everyone under the New Covenant under Christ now, where if they do not believe in Him they are unsaved?

Since the Old Covenant was *finished* at the Cross, all Jews since then must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ without exception. John Hagee falsely teaches that Jews are exempted from believing on Christ, but the New Testament refutes that totally.

Today we have Messianic Jews who have received Christ as "Messiah" but failed to understand that He is both Lord and Christ, therefore they cannot hold on to Old Covenant practices, neither can they segregate themselves from Gentile Christians.

 

[bbyrd009]

No spirit means no seal of salvation!


What is your take on the subject?

i find the same Spirit in "Love your neighbor as yourself"
or Commandment 2, OT iow

 

[APAK]

To be honest here...I am obviously missing something. ( which is not hard for me to do!! )

I can't see WHY you say what I made bold above in your quote.
They already were saved when God declares that they 'lived by faith' their faith saved them.
*Are you saying that because they didn't have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, that they weren't saved?
If so, then no, I do not agree with you.

The Holy Spirit dwelling within us does not "save" us...He empowers us for service, * But we are saved ONLY by and through the shedding of blood.
" And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.... "

The blood shed of the Spotless Lamb of God opened the door for us to be redeemed and set free.
The Spirit of God is not our Saviour , Jesus Christ is our Saviour.

Or maybe I am miss-reading what I thought you wrote?

Helen....we do not agree here and to me the difference is significant.

I agree that the shed blood of Christ provides us the opportunity to be saved. We then must take the steps to believe, repent, be baptized and receive the gift of salvation, the gift of saving faith from God, and the spirit from God. This is our ‘stamp’ of approval. It’s what makes a true believer in Christ. Without it we are not saved.

When Christ returns, those he calls to him shall only be those with this spirit of God (our identification tag if you will), whether they are OT or NT folks. Without this spirit that seals us, we are counted as unbelievers and will not rise again until later.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[APAK]

Since the Old Covenant was *finished* at the Cross, all Jews since then must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ without exception. John Hagee falsely teaches that Jews are exempted from believing on Christ, but the New Testament refutes that totally.

Today we have Messianic Jews who have received Christ as "Messiah" but failed to understand that He is both Lord and Christ, therefore they cannot hold on to Old Covenant practices, neither can they segregate themselves from Gentile Christians.

Enoch, you apparently know this topic well...there are many more examples...it is encouraging you 'see' the bigger picture concerning salvation and some of its mechanics as part of the plan of salvation for mankind.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[APAK]

i find the same Spirit in "Love your neighbor as yourself"
or Commandment 2, OT iow

Yes bbyrd you are right, although to process it genuinely, it must come from the 'new man' and so you need the real thing within you to do this, the spirit that regenerates, given feely at the initial point of salvation.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

at the initial point of salvation.

then let me say that i am sceptical whether our definition of this point = God's.

 

[Helen]

I agree that the shed blood of Christ provides us the opportunity to be saved. We then must take the steps to believe, repent, be baptized and receive the gift of salvation, the gift of saving faith from God, and the spirit from God. This is our ‘stamp’ of approval. It’s what makes a true believer in Christ. Without it we are not saved.

When Christ returns, those he calls to him shall only be those with this spirit of God (our identification tag if you will), whether they are OT or NT folks. Without this spirit that seals us, we are counted as unbelievers and will not rise again until later.

Bless you,

APAK

Hi there
We shall have to agree to differ... and that is okay.

Heb 10:9 "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Yes, as you say:- We then must take the steps to believe, repent, be baptized and receive the gift of salvation, It’s what makes a true believer in Christ. " ..to which "I" add ....to enjoy all the benefits of that wonderful union and salvation. What Jesus did , he did...it was a legal transaction.We are free to receive this gift.

You say:- "Without it we are not saved." I believe all men are saved...but they have not seen it..or have said Thank You for the wonderful gift.
They are not sons, the prison door is wide OPEN the key has been thrown away...but they still sit inside in darkness.

Bless you...we will see on that Day , wont we

 

[APAK]

then let me say that i am sceptical whether our definition of this point = God's.

So I see you have found fault in a word I've used 'point.' Let's get real here. You are not wanting to see my 'point' and the message or meaning I'm communicating. You just want to contest a word and thus ​

construct another rabbit hole of yours for me to go into that leads to nowwhere. You can go down this hole all by yourself. Not interested unless you want to discuss the message.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

So I see you have found fault in a word I've used 'point.'

? not at all, i just mean to point out that there are many defs for "saved," and imo most of them are not God's. So it's not that i disagree, so much as that i am not sure what you mean by it

 

[APAK]

? not at all, i just mean to point out that there are many defs for "saved," and imo most of them are not God's. So it's not that i disagree, so much as that i am not sure what you mean by it

Sure, bbyrd there are many, I agree on this point…Here the top 5 that I can quickly think of…

1. There are those that believe saved is just by Jesus atoning for our sins (as a kind of empty grace) without us acknowledging and performing steps that condition our heart to accepting this grace and gift of God into our hearts and be a part of God’s spirit within us that molds us to a likeness of Christ.

2. There are those that believe saved is reading this good news of salvation, believing it, confessing and repenting of sin, being baptized into Christ as performing steps that condition our heart to accepting this grace and gift of God into our hearts and to be a part of God’s spirit within us that molds us to a likeness of Christ. And this mouth full is what I believe in and performed many years ago, and scripture concurs.

3. There are those that believe if we be good or try to be good and do good works we are saved.

4. There are those that believe we are not good enough to be saved

5. There are those that believe we can fall from being saved and we have to resign ourselves to ‘going in’ and out’ of being saved until we die, and hope we are ‘saved’ when we have our last breath. It’s all based on ‘sin’ and how we might feel one day..etc…or what our ‘church’ tells us to believe in

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I believe that Jesus Christ is the only one who says who will go to Heaven, end of story.

The OT Saints hearts were with God and abided in God and they did the will of God as to the OT but as Jesus says there are many mansions, so there is a place for them given in Heaven but only when Jesus Christ came.

It's Born Again is what people have to be but to call your self Saved is not biblical, OSAS is not Biblical, only Jesus will say who is truly Saved that is they who are 'abiding in him', man can make claims all they like but that is not what cuts it with Jesus himself.

People abide or they don't, many are mislead by the cunning workings of man, thus the narrow gate is pointed out is the way, not the wide.
With the Jews one could be abiding in God and until Christ Jesus came, then we had his Grace over shadow the Letter of the Law.
There was no true Grace before Jesus Christ, some mistake grace for the real fact of the Grace that Jesus is all about.
The Grace brought about is a Gift of God to man, to which we have no claim whatsoever, it's a supernatural gift of God to the intellectual creature, bestowed with a view to eternal life.

One must pick up that gift and be guided by it, and it's some what like that of putting on the yoke with the pricks that guide one. it's not like a one off bingo lottery that you are saved and now you can run loose regardless as some peddle.

Rom 3:24
John 6:44 and 6:66

 

[Triumph1300]

Reggie, you sure have a hang-up with the Jews, don't you?

 

[APAK]

I believe that Jesus Christ is the only one who says who will go to Heaven, end of story.

The OT Saints hearts were with God and abided in God and they did the will of God as to the OT but as Jesus says there are many mansions, so there is a place for them given in Heaven but only when Jesus Christ came.

It's Born Again is what people have to be but to call your self Saved is not biblical, OSAS is not Biblical, only Jesus will say who is truly Saved that is they who are 'abiding in him', man can make claims all they like but that is not what cuts it with Jesus himself.

People abide or they don't, many are mislead by the cunning workings of man, thus the narrow gate is pointed out is the way, not the wide.
With the Jews one could be abiding in God and until Christ Jesus came, then we had his Grace over shadow the Letter of the Law.
There was no true Grace before Jesus Christ, some mistake grace for the real fact of the Grace that Jesus is all about.
The Grace brought about is a Gift of God to man, to which we have no claim whatsoever, it's a supernatural gift of God to the intellectual creature, bestowed with a view to eternal life.

One must pick up that gift and be guided by it, and it's some what like that of putting on the yoke with the pricks that guide one. it's not like a one off bingo lottery that you are saved and now you can run loose regardless as some peddle.

Rom 3:24
John 6:44 and 6:66

Forget the OSAS and non-OSAS thought processes, made famous by men from both camps​

Reggie let me be blunt, are you a born-again believer with the regenerative spirit of God working in your heart, this very moment?

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Reggie, you sure have a hang-up with the Jews, don't you?

Why do you claim that.
I would say the problem I have is with people who have no real idea what or who the Jews really are.
Did you realise that I am called a Jew and that people make stupid foolish claims on me and this comes from idiots who have no idea at all what the hell they are truly talking about, I can't believe just how much pathetic rubbish that morons dictate to me. for years I have just sat back and let them carry on and do you know why I have just not bothered to come back at them, it's because they know bugger all what they are on about, but at the end of 2017 I informed a mate I have known for 50 years what is what, now he is a dedicated atheist and started telling me that he as looked into the bible and he knows better than all, hey his education come through media and face book like the majority of fools, he said get on face book and I said Never ! it's the work of Satan and run by Nazi Jews. so it started from their, him calling me a Jew and me informing him of what is a Jew and the differences of types of Jews and so called Jews, just as it is with Christians there are differences you know and if you have a brain you may be able to work that out. don't call me a Jew because it's highly offensive to me, because I am a Dedicated Christian, you can call me a Hebrew and that's fine by me and then I just went through what the definitions truly mean in fact, I pointed out all the idiots who had seen my sir name and started waffling on that I am a Jew, when I informed them that I was a Christian and they totally rejected that I was to my face and in a rage they were and all and I never said anything but that I am a Christian, I never challenged them. now I have had a gut full and if you call me a Jew that means that you are saying that I reject Jesus Christ and you are making me out as a lie. no really you are a Jew claiming to be Christian ? now what hope would I have in Nazi Germany back in the day with f ing a holes like that, this is 2018 and I get charged with crap like that ! f that makes me angered ! I am sick of morons who know nothing but TV media BS or some stupid movies that has clouded there minds to the facts.
Yes I get some moron come and say that they seen a 2hr show on Christianity and they know the whole thing better than I do, I say I watched that show as well you know buster and I could drive a truck through a lot of it, I have it recorded and if you want I will point out where they were full of it, but it will take more than 2hr out of your life to inform you.

Such idiots come about dismissing what I have to say thinking they know better and this coming from people who have no interest at all in Religion, the same is with my Trade I am a Master with 44 years experience and some moron looked up on the net for 2hr claims to knows more than I would, when in fact they could not even past to be a labour in the job, it's just unbelievable that I have to put up with such people, you know what the same type of people would ask some no hoper who have been a dole bludger all his life what does he think of the subject over mine, ha ha ! madness, what a degenerate backward people we have nowadays and there is no hope for them the whole society is going to crash and fall. because of their grand delusions.

You make claims I am against the Jews, well if you know what you are truly talking about you would know that I am correct. number 1 Jews are a Religion not a race, 2 Anti-Semite has truly nothing to do with Jews, a religion or the People of the OT in fact, they are called Hebrews in fact and the Semitic people are the Arabs race in fact, so to say Anti-Semitic truly you are saying of the Arab peoples, yes the Jews came from the same Semitic race but we are not talking about race here at all in fact but religion, there is a distinction you know. any one can become whatever religion you want there is no race religion that I know of. and this comes down to idiots who claim that some race is Gods chosen people, ha ha ! morons ! Racist bigoted morons ! there is no such thing as race in Christianity from the beginning as it is said there is no Jew or Greek right get that, we are all as one in Christ and if you reject that you are not a Christian and if you are looking to another other than Jesus Christ only you are not a Christian, only a fool turns away from our Lord and Saviour, nothing good will come of such idiots and morons.

 

[Triumph1300]

Well, I guess I was right. Lol
You DO have a hang-up with the Jewish people.

my Trade I am a Master with 44 years experience and some moron looked up on the net for 2hr claims to knows more than I would, when in fact they could not even past to be a labour in the job, it's just unbelievable that I have to put up with such people, you know what the same type of people would ask some no hoper who have been a dole bludger all his life what does he think of the subject over mine, ha ha ! madness, what a degenerate backward people we have nowadays and there is no hope for them the whole society is going to crash and fall. because of their grand delusions.

Ok.
I got it.

 

[Triumph1300]

Reggie let me be blunt, are you a born-again believer with the regenerative spirit of God working in your heart, this very moment?

Good question.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Forget the OSAS and non-OSAS thought processes, made famous by men from both camps​

Reggie let me be blunt, are you a born-again believer with the regenerative spirit of God working in your heart, this very moment?

Bless you,

APAK

I don't believe in mans works at all or what one says.

You will have to give me more info on why you say such a thing.

Fact is no man can say of boast that he is going to Heaven because only Jesus Christ himself can make that call and anyone who doubts that is a moron. you may make claims that it is your hope and that you feel that you will go to Heaven strongly to others because of X Y Z but to boast is worthless, sure I understand one saying such to other men but what about when you meet Jesus Christ are you going to toss him out of the way, I don't think so, I think anyone will be boasting to him at all.

The workings of men and the Holy Spirit are clear different.

A religious mate makes claims he is going to Heaven all the time to me and that's all good I don't mind that he has faith, but he thinks that he can kill others and do what ever he likes totally regardless take drugs bash and steal and he is going to Heaven because he believes it and not even repent at all for all he has done because OSAS.
Well I don't think he is abiding in the Lord Jesus at all but has only licence of Satan in his heart, he rattles on about Idolising Jews and all that crap as well, you must do as the Jews tell you or else.
He has evil spirits that has made him worse than he ever was before and he knows it, I can read it in his eyes but will not admit it.

 

[7angels]

Eight probing questions of salvation for people in all ages, and before Christ’s return….

1. Were the disciples saved before Jesus ascended to heaven?

2. There are many pastors today saying that in the OT some people were saved through faith and grace of the same faith and grace as of today, ‘under grace.’ What do you think?

3. What does it mean to be credited with righteousness? Is it the same as being ‘saved?’

4. Did the OT folks have two ways or no way to salvation? Did they gain salvation by demonstrating faith with works, faith alone, or belief in a future Messiah that would die for their sins, or not at all?

5. And where does the Law fit in all this fit as it relates to salvation before Christ’s ascension?

6. Is there a difference in the ‘grace’ bestowed upon folks in the OT and the NT for salvation?

7. I think the OT folks under the Law including Christ’s disciples were not technically saved until the glorification of Christ and at Pentecost when the spirit was dispensed.

No spirit means no seal of salvation!


What is your take on the subject?


Blessings to all,


APAK

i numbered the points to more easily see what is being discussed.

1. no they were not saved because they were still under the law until the death and resurrection of Christ.
2. we are under a different dispensation. you cannot even compare it to the one we have now. scripture tells us that those that have seen what is to come wished to see it. that tells us how much better we have it then they did in the OT.
3. no it is not. they were under the old dispensation of the OT which was the law.
4. i believe this was gained through obedience to God.
5. the law is the way to God. NT it is written in the hearts of believers. OT it was written and supposed to be studied and meditated on but i think it became a tradition/religion instead of sincerity towards God.
6. yes. as i said look at the dispensations.
7. OT listed 3 types of people that had the Spirit and they were prophets, kings, and priests.

God bless

 

[Triumph1300]

if you think there is a Jew then you are an Anti-Christ.

Really?

 

[Triumph1300]

But you don't have enough faith to do that do you, so you are looking up a horses tail trying to see what his teeth look like.

Ok, not worthwhile responding to your ramblings.
You need some serious help.