Salvation : Beginning

[Daniel L.]

predestined elect

Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[Robert Gwin]

It could well be that the very worst cult that Satan has ever created is the "predestined elect", Cult.
This demonic cult might be the most Satanic of all, because not only does it oppose the Cross, but it also opposes God's Love, by teaching that God only saves some, and CAUSES other's to burn in the Lake of Fire.
These ministers of the devil would have you believe that you might be one of those who God chose to burn, along with your family.
See that? That is what you are dealing with on "christian forums".
This is what the "elect", "predestined elect"... Hyper Calvinist cultist teach as "the Grace of God" and "God is Love".
Unbelievable, but true.
They Literally Teach that a person has no free will to believe in Jesus, and that God chooses these, maybe you... to be born only to go to Hell, and have no chance to go to heaven.
This is so Satanic, this "predestined elect" Hyper Calvinism teaching and these people... so, if you are a new Christian, beware of these devil deceived cultists, as they will ruin your faith, and cause you to believe that God is evil, hateful, and causes people to be born so that they will go to Hell, then the Lake of Fire.
Its God's will that they are "BORN to BURN".
Mark these people as ministers of the Devil, as they literally deny God's Grace as Jesus has offered Himself to us all.

Jehovah does not force anyone to serve Him Be, although few choose to do so Mat 7:14. satan is a powerful force, but he can only influence those who let him, Christians cannot be tempted beyond what they can bear, Jehovah always makes a way out. Sadly sometimes that way out may be death, but what a guarantee the Bible offers to them. Knowing Jehovah and getting onto the road to life is graciously offered to everyone sir.

 

[Johann]

Well as John Calvin is no God of mine you just wasted a straw man!

And no a natural man in his unsaved state cannot produce the faith that saves- that is absolutely clear from the Bible. John Calvin in this instance was just requoting Scripture!

And your statement of: "God saves everyone who believes and you can't believe unless you have free will" is a man made conclusion based on finite human reasoning.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Joh_6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him" God always takes the initiative (cf. Joh_6:65; Joh_15:16). All spiritual decisions are the result of the wooing of the Spirit, not mankind's religiosity (cf. Isa_53:6).

God's sovereignty and a mandated human response are inseparably linked together by the will and mercy of God. This is the OT concept of covenant.
The balance to this "drawing of God" is found in Joh_12:32 where Jesus "draws all men to Himself." This drawing reverses the OT pattern of God's people not responding to His prophetic word (examples: Isa_6:9-13; Isa_29:13; Jeremiah). God now speaks, not through prophets to Israel, but through His Son to all mankind (cf. Heb_1:1-3).


2) "Except the Father which hath sent me draw him,'' (ean me ho pater ho pempsas me helkuse auton) "Unless the Father who sent me should draw him," by His Word and Spirit, Rom_10:17; Even as the Spirit drew Saul of Tarsus, when pricked to the heart to cry, "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" Ac 91-6. The Father drew the Ethiopian eunuch, through the Spirit, that led Philip to preach Jesus to him from the Scriptures that he read, but could not understand, Act_8:28-35.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me,
it were given unto him of my Father.


Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.


We must be very careful about our methods as well as our goals. For in Christianity the means determine the end. This same word is used by Paul
1. in a quote from Job_5:13 referring to human wisdom (cf. 1Co_3:19)
2. of Satan tempting Eve (cf. 2Co_11:3)
3. of the trickery of Satan and the false teachers (cf. Eph_4:14)
4. here of the methods of false teachers

NASB "or adulterating the word of God"
NKJV "nor handling the word of God deceitfully"
NRSV "to falsify God's word"
TEV "nor do we falsify the word of God"
NJB "or to falsify the word of God"
This term and its related forms mean
1. watered down (cf. 2Co_2:17)
2. entrapped with bait (cf. Mat_26:4; Mar_14:1)
3. defrauded or deceived (cf. 2Co_11:13; Rom_3:13)
It refers to a changing message based on the hearer's sensibilities or trying to trick the hearers (cf. 1Co_1:23).
Utley


"our gospel is veiled" This is a Periphrastic perfect passive participle of "veiled" (cf. 2Co_3:14; 2Co_3:16). It is obvious to Paul that when he preached the gospel some men absolutely could not respond to it. As the Jews are "hardened" (cf. 2Co_3:14; and Isa_6:9-10), hearers in every age are also "blinded" (cf. 2Co_4:4).

This is the mystery of predestination versus free will,....ooops.. the paradox of the gospel (cf. Joh_1:12; Joh_3:16 vs. Joh_6:44; Joh_6:65).
"those who are perishing" Paul is continuing his analogy of the gospel as an aroma of life and of death (cf. 2Co_2:15; 1Co_1:18-19; 1Co_8:11; 1Co_10:9-10; 1Co_15:18).

The proclamation of the gospel is serious business, to some life, but to some death....and not to be trifled with...

2Co_4:4 "the god of this world" This evil personality is called by several names by Paul.
1. Satan (cf. Rom_16:20; 1Co_5:5; 1Co_7:5; 2Co_2:11; 2Co_11:14; 2Co_12:7; 1Th_2:18; 2Th_2:9; 1Ti_1:20; 1Ti_5:15)
2. Devil (cf. Eph_4:27; Eph_6:11-12; 1Ti_3:6-7; 2Ti_2:26; the plural used of the demonic, 1Co_10:20-21; 1Ti_4:1)
3. "the prince of the power of the air" (cf. Eph_2:2)
4. "the god of this age/world" (John calls him "the ruler of this age/world," Joh_12:31; Joh_14:30; Joh_16:11)
5. "the tempter" (cf. 1Th_3:5)
6. "the evil one" (cf. 2Th_3:3, this title is common in Matthew's and John's writings)
7. "an angel of light" (cf. 2Co_11:14)

This verse caused great concern to the early Church Fathers because it seemed to add fuel to the fire of the Gnostic and Arian false teachers. Therefore, unfortunately, they (Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Chrysostom, Ambrose, Theodoret, and Augustine) changed the Greek of this text to: "in who God has blinded the mind of the unbeliever of this world." Now Satan is obviously referred to as the prince and power of this world (cf. Joh_12:31; Joh_14:30; Eph_2:2). These early Church Fathers were not reacting to the concept of a personal force of evil, but to the theological concept of the Gnostic Demiurge and the Arians' view of a less-than-divine Christ.

...I wonder what Jesus meant by...MANY are called...few chosen..any ideas?

 

[Johann]

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Joh_6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him" God always takes the initiative (cf. Joh_6:65; Joh_15:16). All spiritual decisions are the result of the wooing of the Spirit, not mankind's religiosity (cf. Isa_53:6).

God's sovereignty and a mandated human response are inseparably linked together by the will and mercy of God. This is the OT concept of covenant.
The balance to this "drawing of God" is found in Joh_12:32 where Jesus "draws all men to Himself." This drawing reverses the OT pattern of God's people not responding to His prophetic word (examples: Isa_6:9-13; Isa_29:13; Jeremiah). God now speaks, not through prophets to Israel, but through His Son to all mankind (cf. Heb_1:1-3).


2) "Except the Father which hath sent me draw him,'' (ean me ho pater ho pempsas me helkuse auton) "Unless the Father who sent me should draw him," by His Word and Spirit, Rom_10:17; Even as the Spirit drew Saul of Tarsus, when pricked to the heart to cry, "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" Ac 91-6. The Father drew the Ethiopian eunuch, through the Spirit, that led Philip to preach Jesus to him from the Scriptures that he read, but could not understand, Act_8:28-35.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me,
it were given unto him of my Father.


Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.


We must be very careful about our methods as well as our goals. For in Christianity the means determine the end. This same word is used by Paul
1. in a quote from Job_5:13 referring to human wisdom (cf. 1Co_3:19)
2. of Satan tempting Eve (cf. 2Co_11:3)
3. of the trickery of Satan and the false teachers (cf. Eph_4:14)
4. here of the methods of false teachers

NASB "or adulterating the word of God"
NKJV "nor handling the word of God deceitfully"
NRSV "to falsify God's word"
TEV "nor do we falsify the word of God"
NJB "or to falsify the word of God"
This term and its related forms mean
1. watered down (cf. 2Co_2:17)
2. entrapped with bait (cf. Mat_26:4; Mar_14:1)
3. defrauded or deceived (cf. 2Co_11:13; Rom_3:13)
It refers to a changing message based on the hearer's sensibilities or trying to trick the hearers (cf. 1Co_1:23).
Utley


"our gospel is veiled" This is a Periphrastic perfect passive participle of "veiled" (cf. 2Co_3:14; 2Co_3:16). It is obvious to Paul that when he preached the gospel some men absolutely could not respond to it. As the Jews are "hardened" (cf. 2Co_3:14; and Isa_6:9-10), hearers in every age are also "blinded" (cf. 2Co_4:4).

This is the mystery of predestination versus free will,....ooops.. the paradox of the gospel (cf. Joh_1:12; Joh_3:16 vs. Joh_6:44; Joh_6:65).
"those who are perishing" Paul is continuing his analogy of the gospel as an aroma of life and of death (cf. 2Co_2:15; 1Co_1:18-19; 1Co_8:11; 1Co_10:9-10; 1Co_15:18).

The proclamation of the gospel is serious business, to some life, but to some death....and not to be trifled with...

2Co_4:4 "the god of this world" This evil personality is called by several names by Paul.
1. Satan (cf. Rom_16:20; 1Co_5:5; 1Co_7:5; 2Co_2:11; 2Co_11:14; 2Co_12:7; 1Th_2:18; 2Th_2:9; 1Ti_1:20; 1Ti_5:15)
2. Devil (cf. Eph_4:27; Eph_6:11-12; 1Ti_3:6-7; 2Ti_2:26; the plural used of the demonic, 1Co_10:20-21; 1Ti_4:1)
3. "the prince of the power of the air" (cf. Eph_2:2)
4. "the god of this age/world" (John calls him "the ruler of this age/world," Joh_12:31; Joh_14:30; Joh_16:11)
5. "the tempter" (cf. 1Th_3:5)
6. "the evil one" (cf. 2Th_3:3, this title is common in Matthew's and John's writings)
7. "an angel of light" (cf. 2Co_11:14)

This verse caused great concern to the early Church Fathers because it seemed to add fuel to the fire of the Gnostic and Arian false teachers. Therefore, unfortunately, they (Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Chrysostom, Ambrose, Theodoret, and Augustine) changed the Greek of this text to: "in who God has blinded the mind of the unbeliever of this world." Now Satan is obviously referred to as the prince and power of this world (cf. Joh_12:31; Joh_14:30; Eph_2:2). These early Church Fathers were not reacting to the concept of a personal force of evil, but to the theological concept of the Gnostic Demiurge and the Arians' view of a less-than-divine Christ.

...I wonder what Jesus meant by...MANY are called...few chosen..any ideas?

View attachment 21639

It would seem, by careful reading and cross examination that the doctrine of election is everywhere to be found in scripture, no need to read what the reformers are saying..we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling...for even the demons believe, and they tremble!

Shalom
J.

 

[Ziggy]

Salvation : Beginning

Exactly!


Hugs

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Joh_6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him" God always takes the initiative (cf. Joh_6:65; Joh_15:16). All spiritual decisions are the result of the wooing of the Spirit, not mankind's religiosity (cf. Isa_53:6).

God's sovereignty and a mandated human response are inseparably linked together by the will and mercy of God. This is the OT concept of covenant.
The balance to this "drawing of God" is found in Joh_12:32 where Jesus "draws all men to Himself." This drawing reverses the OT pattern of God's people not responding to His prophetic word (examples: Isa_6:9-13; Isa_29:13; Jeremiah). God now speaks, not through prophets to Israel, but through His Son to all mankind (cf. Heb_1:1-3).


2) "Except the Father which hath sent me draw him,'' (ean me ho pater ho pempsas me helkuse auton) "Unless the Father who sent me should draw him," by His Word and Spirit, Rom_10:17; Even as the Spirit drew Saul of Tarsus, when pricked to the heart to cry, "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" Ac 91-6. The Father drew the Ethiopian eunuch, through the Spirit, that led Philip to preach Jesus to him from the Scriptures that he read, but could not understand, Act_8:28-35.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me,
it were given unto him of my Father.


Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.


We must be very careful about our methods as well as our goals. For in Christianity the means determine the end. This same word is used by Paul
1. in a quote from Job_5:13 referring to human wisdom (cf. 1Co_3:19)
2. of Satan tempting Eve (cf. 2Co_11:3)
3. of the trickery of Satan and the false teachers (cf. Eph_4:14)
4. here of the methods of false teachers

NASB "or adulterating the word of God"
NKJV "nor handling the word of God deceitfully"
NRSV "to falsify God's word"
TEV "nor do we falsify the word of God"
NJB "or to falsify the word of God"
This term and its related forms mean
1. watered down (cf. 2Co_2:17)
2. entrapped with bait (cf. Mat_26:4; Mar_14:1)
3. defrauded or deceived (cf. 2Co_11:13; Rom_3:13)
It refers to a changing message based on the hearer's sensibilities or trying to trick the hearers (cf. 1Co_1:23).
Utley


"our gospel is veiled" This is a Periphrastic perfect passive participle of "veiled" (cf. 2Co_3:14; 2Co_3:16). It is obvious to Paul that when he preached the gospel some men absolutely could not respond to it. As the Jews are "hardened" (cf. 2Co_3:14; and Isa_6:9-10), hearers in every age are also "blinded" (cf. 2Co_4:4).

This is the mystery of predestination versus free will,....ooops.. the paradox of the gospel (cf. Joh_1:12; Joh_3:16 vs. Joh_6:44; Joh_6:65).
"those who are perishing" Paul is continuing his analogy of the gospel as an aroma of life and of death (cf. 2Co_2:15; 1Co_1:18-19; 1Co_8:11; 1Co_10:9-10; 1Co_15:18).

The proclamation of the gospel is serious business, to some life, but to some death....and not to be trifled with...

2Co_4:4 "the god of this world" This evil personality is called by several names by Paul.
1. Satan (cf. Rom_16:20; 1Co_5:5; 1Co_7:5; 2Co_2:11; 2Co_11:14; 2Co_12:7; 1Th_2:18; 2Th_2:9; 1Ti_1:20; 1Ti_5:15)
2. Devil (cf. Eph_4:27; Eph_6:11-12; 1Ti_3:6-7; 2Ti_2:26; the plural used of the demonic, 1Co_10:20-21; 1Ti_4:1)
3. "the prince of the power of the air" (cf. Eph_2:2)
4. "the god of this age/world" (John calls him "the ruler of this age/world," Joh_12:31; Joh_14:30; Joh_16:11)
5. "the tempter" (cf. 1Th_3:5)
6. "the evil one" (cf. 2Th_3:3, this title is common in Matthew's and John's writings)
7. "an angel of light" (cf. 2Co_11:14)

This verse caused great concern to the early Church Fathers because it seemed to add fuel to the fire of the Gnostic and Arian false teachers. Therefore, unfortunately, they (Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Chrysostom, Ambrose, Theodoret, and Augustine) changed the Greek of this text to: "in who God has blinded the mind of the unbeliever of this world." Now Satan is obviously referred to as the prince and power of this world (cf. Joh_12:31; Joh_14:30; Eph_2:2). These early Church Fathers were not reacting to the concept of a personal force of evil, but to the theological concept of the Gnostic Demiurge and the Arians' view of a less-than-divine Christ.

...I wonder what Jesus meant by...MANY are called...few chosen..any ideas?

View attachment 21639

Well free will in the unsaved is a myth. The unsaved have no free will, they are enslaved to sin and spiritually dead.

there is the mystery of the Father drawing men to the Son and the son drawing men to HImself. Whom the Father draws will come to Jesus and He will not cast them out. whom the son draws is a maybe, maybe not. Teh cross attracts all men o come and see, but not all are called by the Father.