SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

[FaithWillDo]

Wrong, you do not understand what this verse is saying,
Revelation 21:8 ALL those mentioned in this verse which includes unbelievers will burn in the lake of fire.

No reason for the word of God to warn us if we are all going to be saved.

Dear Titus,
The Elect are saved PRIOR to their judgment coming upon them. Because salvation comes first, they will not experience wrath during their time of judgment.

However, the lost of the final age are judged PRIOR to their being saved. They will experience wrath. But before they perish, Christ will give them the free gift of salvation. After the new child of God is born, he will be caught up to heaven while the child of the devil perishes from judgment. This is how Christ converts and saves mankind.

Joe

 

[Titus]

Then before those being judged perish, Christ will give them the free gift of salvation just as He did for the Elect. He will not omit justice, mercy and faith from His judgment of mankind. Why do you think He will?

What part of

Dear Titus,
The Elect are saved PRIOR to their judgment coming upon them. Because salvation comes first, they will not experience wrath during their time of judgment.

However, the lost of the final age are judged PRIOR to their being saved. They will experience wrath. But before they perish, Christ will give them the free gift of salvation. After the new child of God is born, he will be caught up to heaven while the child of the devil perishes from judgment. This is how Christ converts and saves mankind.

Joe

no scripture given

 

[FaithWillDo]

Can you not obey the commandment of God in the new testament and be saved?
Doing Gods commandments are works of righteousness., Acts 10:35= Psalm 119:172

1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave us commandment

Fact: God does not do the commandments of God. We must obey His commandments.
We must work the works of God, John 6:28-29, John 14:12,
- most assuredly I say to you he who believes in Me the works that I do he will do also and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father

Dear Titus,
The child of God is governed by the Spirit. It is the Spirit that does the work through us.

Also, salvation is not limited to this lifetime. However, being an heir/First Fruit/Elect is limited to this age. You should keep this difference in mind as you study scripture.

Joe

 

[Titus]

Dear Titus,
The Elect are saved PRIOR to their judgment coming upon them. Because salvation comes first, they will not experience wrath during their time of judgment.

However, the lost of the final age are judged PRIOR to their being saved. They will experience wrath. But before they perish, Christ will give them the free gift of salvation. After the new child of God is born, he will be caught up to heaven while the child of the devil perishes from judgment. This is how Christ converts and saves mankind.

Joe

Answer my question,
Can you be saved by not obeying Gods commandment to believe in Jesus Christ? 1John 3:23-24

You need to learn that we do Gods commandments. God does not do His commandments for us.

The doing the commandment to believe is a work. You cannot be saved without works.

The child of God is governed by the Spirit. It is the Spirit that does the work through us

No scripture given.

I'm not interested in your opinions only what sayeth the scriptures.

Answer this question also,
If the Holy Spirit does all the work for us. Thus keeping Gods commandments.
Then who is at fault when man does not keep Gods commandments, himself or God for not giving him the Holy Spirit?

Your religion makes God guilty for all who do not obey Gods commandments for they could not according to you because they were not given Gods Holy Spirit.

 

[FaithWillDo]

What part of

no scripture given

Dear Titus,
Read Joel chapter 2. In the first part of the chapter, Christ's army is presented. They are the Elect who are reigning with Christ. The setting is the judgment of the lost in the final age. Read down to verse 18 where it says that the Lord will have pity (mercy) upon them.

Joel 2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

Then a few verses later it says that the Lord will give them the Early and Latter Rain for their salvation.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

Joe

 

[Titus]

Dear Titus,
Read Joel chapter 2. In the first part of the chapter, Christ's army is presented. They are the Elect who are reigning with Christ. The setting is the judgment of the lost in the final age. Read down to verse 18 where it says that the Lord have have pity (mercy) upon them.

Joel 2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

Then a few verses later it says that the Lord will give them the Early and Latter Rain for their salvation.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

Joe

You're not addressing my question.
What about those who never believe in this life?
Are they at fault because God did not have His Holy Spirit work the commandments through them?

How can someone who according to you cannot believe be guilty of unbelief if God has not chosen to give them the Holy Spirit so that they can believe?

Your calvinist doctrine makes God guilty for all who do not believe.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Wrong, gentiles and former Jews made up the congregation in Rome.

Paul was teaching the gentile converts to Christ in the book of Romans not to allow the Jewish converts to Christ to bind the old law on them!!!

The Jewish Christians tried to bind the old law on gentile christians.
Paul is teaching about this in the book of Romans and Galatians.
The apostles were dealing with this in the book of Acts also,
Acts 15:24,
- forasmuch as we have heard that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words subverting your souls saying ye must be circumcised and keep the law to whom we gave no such commandment

Acts 2:10 Talks about the Jews who were christians in Rome!! Those Jews were members of the church in Rome,
- Phrygia and Pamphylia in Egypt and in parts of Libya about cyrene and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes

Lol

You can try to insert your works into salvation all you want

Just do not call it grace. Grace can not be earned, by you me or anyone else. It can;t be earned by jew or gentile

Paul made that clear.

 

[Titus]

Lol

You can try to insert your works into salvation all you want

Just do not call it grace. Grace can not be earned, by you me or anyone else. It can;t be earned by jew or gentile

Paul made that clear.

Misrepresentation!,,
Works of righteousness never merited salvation
I never taught that we merit our salvation.
You already have been corrected on those multiple times.
You are a liar for claiming I teach a meritorious works based salvation.

Paul includes obedience which is the works that are involved in salvation,
Romans 1:5,
- by whom we received grace and apostleship for OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Misrepresentation!,,
Works of righteousness never merited salvation
I never taught that we merit our salvation.
You already have been corrected on those multiple times.
You are a liar for claiming I teach a meritorious works based salvation.

Paul includes obedience which is the works that are involved in salvation,
Romans 1:5,
- by whom we received grace and apostleship for OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH..

Titus 3: 5. Not by works of righteousness which we have done but by his mercy

You were not saved by Your works of righteousness

Any work that merits salvation is a work to earn salvation.

So you just proved you teach a meritorious works based salvation

Obedience to the faith is having faith in Christ.

its obeying John 3: 16.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Answer my question,
Can you be saved by not obeying Gods commandment to believe in Jesus Christ? 1John 3:23-24

You need to learn that we do Gods commandments. God does not do His commandments for us.

The doing the commandment to believe is a work. You cannot be saved without works.


No scripture given.

I'm not interested in your opinions only what sayeth the scriptures.

Answer this question also,
If the Holy Spirit does all the work for us. Thus keeping Gods commandments.
Then who is at fault when man does not keep Gods commandments, himself or God for not giving him the Holy Spirit?

Your religion makes God guilty for all who do not obey Gods commandments for thy could not according to you because they were not given Gods Holy Spirit.

Dear Titus,
you asked:
Answer my question,
Can you be saved by not obeying Gods commandment to believe in Jesus Christ? 1John 3:23-24

Only after Christ gives a person the Early and Latter Rains and converts them into a child of God can they keep the commandments of Christ. They can keep them at that time ONLY because Christ governs the believer from within:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

He is the one who does the works:

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

You asked:
Answer this question also,
If the Holy Spirit does all the work for us. Thus keeping Gods commandments.
Then who is at fault when man does not keep Gods commandments, himself or God for not giving him the Holy Spirit?

Paul was asked a similar question. Here is the scripture along with his answer:

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, WHY DOTH HE YET FIND FAULT? FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Coupled that scripture with this one:

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, BUT BY REASON OF HIM WHO HATH SUBJECTED THE SAME IN HOPE, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

God made mankind "subject to vanity (sin) and He did so without our permission. He made us this way for His own purposes. Furthermore, God holds us accountable for our sins that He causes us to commit. And likewise, He does that, too, to satisfy His own purposes. But in the end, mankind will have a knowledge of good and evil just as God does. And because God made all mankind to be sinful without our permission, He will also deliver us from the "bondage of corruption" without our permission. God ways are not man's ways.

Joe

 

[Titus]

Only after Christ gives a person the Early and Latter Rains and converts them into a child of God can they keep the commandments of Christ. They can keep them at that time ONLY because Christ governs the believer from within:

So you have just admitted that we must work a commandment of God to be saved, 1John 3:23-24.
Which disproves your false gospel of salvation apart from works.

You have disproven your gospel for me. I thank you for your honesty Sir.

Where I do not agree is that you claim we do not work the works of God even though Jesus says we do.
John 6:28-29,
- then they said to Jesus what shall we do, that WE MIGHT WORK THE WORKS OF GOD
Jesus answered and said to them, this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent
John 14:12,
- most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also and greater works than these he will do because I go to My Father

He is the one who does the works:

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

Good, you admit only God does the commandments not us, therefore those who do not do His commandments are not at fault for God did not choose to work His Holy Spirit in them.
Your religion makes God guilty for every person who does not believe and do/obey the commandments of God.

Furthermore, God holds us accountable for our sins that He causes us to commit.

Hahaha,
Then God is absolutely guilty for all that sin, all that do not believe, all that go to hell.

You have taken all responsibility off of mankind and put the guilt for sins on God!!!

You cannot possibly know the true gospel of Jesus Christ that saves Sir.

Romans 2:6,
- who will render to each one according to his deeds

According to faithwilldo, God makes us sin, then judges us guilty because we sin!!!
Calvinism is foolishness!!!

Matthew 7:21
- Not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of My Father in heaven
Faithwilldo teaches Jesus commands that we must do His will to be saved and then Jesus makes us sin against His Fathers will. The very will Jesus commands all to do!!!
Hahaha, calvinism is non-sense!!!

The calvinist Jesus commands us to do His commandments then causes us to not do His commandments. This is why calvanist will never understand the gospel of Jesus Christ as long as they read the Scriptures through their TULIP colored glasses.

 

[FaithWillDo]

You're not addressing my question.
What about those who never believe in this life?
Are they at fault because God did not have His Holy Spirit work the commandments through them?

How can someone who according to you cannot believe be guilty of unbelief if God has not chosen to give them the Holy Spirit so that they can believe?

Your calvinist doctrine makes God guilty for all who do not believe.

Dear Titus,
God holds unbelievers accountable because it suits His purposes. God will run His creation as He see fit to run it. He is the Creator and has that right.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

It sounds like you are saying there is "unrighteousness with God" because He chooses who will be saved now (the Elect, Jacob) and who will be save at the end (the rest of mankind, Esau).

God forbid!

Carnal mankind cannot understand why God does what He does. It takes the mind of Christ for understanding to occur. To have the mind of Christ, Christ must give us the Early AND Latter Rain and convert us. It is all up to Christ when that happens. We do not get to decide when we are saved or if we are part of the election. God made those decisions from the foundation of the world to satisfy His own purposes. We must accept it and trust God.

You need to listen to scripture and not to what your carnal reasoning tells you to believe. In the end, all mankind will be saved. This time of tribulation which all mankind must experience to enter the Kingdom of Heaven will be worth it all. Can you believe this?

Joe

 

[Titus]

Dear Titus,
God holds unbelievers accountable because it suits His purposes

Yes because calvinism's god makes them not believe, hahaha

It never suited the true God of the Bible to cause anyone to not believe *Therefore cause them to burn in hell,

John 2:2,
- and God Himself is the propitiation for our(the elected) sins and NOT for ours only but also for the WHOLE WORLD

God has provided the way to all to believe by the gospel of Jesus Christ which the Holy Spirit revealed to anyone who chooses to hear it and believe it,
Romans 10:17,
- faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God

The Bible teaches us faith comes from the word!!!!
Not before we hear the word!!!

Show me one savage that lives in the Amazon jungle or the African jungles of Congo talk about Jesus or the Holy Spirit without first hearing the Word of God preached to them from you guessed it, the BIBLE!!

No one has ever talked about having the HS without first learning about the HS through the word of God.

Paul taught we are saved by the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Calvinism teaches you are saved without the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Why? Because they claim God predetermined who will be saved, His elect before He created the world.
Therefore it does not matter who hears the gospel. Those savages will be saved without hearing the word because they may have already been chosen as the elect.

Nowhere does the Bible teach this false doctrine.
Paul made it plain that all are saved by hearing the gospel and believing it and obeying it.
Romans 1:16,
- for I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for IT is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes for the jew first and also for the Greek

Calvinism is made up fiction from the minds of confused men.
It is not the gospel of Jesus Christ that saves all who choose to believe in it

 

[FaithWillDo]

So you have just admitted that we must work a commandment of God to be saved, 1John 3:23-24.
Which disproves your false gospel of salvation apart from works.

You have disproven your gospel for me. I thank you for your honesty Sir.

Where I do not agree is that you claim we do not work the works of God even though Jesus says we do.
John 6:28-29,
- then they said to Jesus what shall we do, that WE MIGHT WORK THE WORKS OF GOD
Jesus answered and said to them, this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent
John 14:12,
- most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also and greater works than these he will do because I go to My Father


Good, you admit only God does the commandments not us, therefore those who do not do His commandments are not at fault for God did not choose to work His Holy Spirit in them.
Your religion makes God guilty for every person who does not believe and do/obey the commandments of God.

Hahaha,
Then God is absolutely guilty for all that sin, all that do not believe, all that go to hell.

You have taken all responsibility off of mankind and put the guilt for sins on God!!!

You cannot possibly know the true gospel of Jesus Christ that saves Sir.

Romans 2:6,
- who will render to each one according to his deeds

According to faithwilldo, God makes us sin, then judges us guilty because we sin!!!
Calvinism is foolishness!!!

Matthew 7:21
- Not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of My Father in heaven
Faithwilldo teaches Jesus commands that we must do His will to be saved and then Jesus makes us sin against His Fathers will. The very will Jesus commands all to do!!!
Hahaha, calvinism is non-sense!!!

The calvinist Jesus commands us to do His commandments then causes us to not do His commandments. This is why calvanist will never understand the gospel of Jesus Christ as long as they read the Scriptures through their TULIP colored glasses.

Dear Titus,
You said:
So you have just admitted that we must work a commandment of God to be saved, 1John 3:23-24.
Which disproves your false gospel of salvation apart from works.

You have disproven your gospel for me. I thank you for your honesty Sir.

I have never said anything of the sort. This is what I have been saying:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

After a person is converted and saved, they will begin to "walk by the Spirit" more and more as they mature.

John the Baptist is a "type" for our Old Man. John said this:

John 3:30 He (Christ) must increase, but I (the Old Man) must decrease.

Though the "good works" that a converted person performs in life appear to be their own actions from the outside, their actions are actually being caused by the Spirit (when they are "walking by the Spirit").

These verses apply:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

We have no works that we can contribute to our own salvation. You need to read my posts more carefully.

You said:
Good, you admit only God does the commandments not us, therefore those who do not do His commandments are not at fault for God did not choose to work His Holy Spirit in them.
Your religion makes God guilty for every person who does not believe and do/obey the commandments of God.

God holds mankind accountable for their sins even though God caused us to sin. God does this to satisfy His own purposes for His creation.

Read again what Paul said:

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, WHY DOTH HE YET FIND FAULT? FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Again, it sounds like you are saying that God's ways are unrighteous:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Don't you trust God to do what is in mankind's best interest? Where is your faith?

You said:
Then God is absolutely guilty for all that sin, all that do not believe, all that go to hell.
You have taken all responsibility off of mankind and put the guilt for sins on God!!!

Again, you are not listening to the verses I quoted. Even though God causes mankind to sin, He still holds us accountable because it suits His own purposes. God ways are not man's ways. There is NO unrighteousness with God as you are saying.

This is all the time I have for today to be on the forum. If I am led to respond to any of your other posts, I will try to do so in the morning (Lord willing).

Joe

 

[Titus]

ou said:
So you have just admitted that we must work a commandment of God to be saved, 1John 3:23-24.
Which disproves your false gospel of salvation apart from works.

You have disproven your gospel for me. I thank you for your honesty Sir.

I have never said anything of the sort. This is what I have been saying:

You absolutely did you just don't realize that you admitted what I wanted you to say.

Fact: God has given a commandment that must be obeyed/worked to be saved,
1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ...

You admitted this work is involved in salvation.
You cannot deny that we must believe in Jesus to be saved. Well you can but it would make you look ridiculous.

Now you deny that we do this work. You claim that God does this work of believing in Jesus.
It does not matter who does the work, man or God.

YOU ADMITTED THERE IS A WORK INVOLVED IN SALVATION, therefore your gospel of no works faith only has been disproven by you Sir!!!

Thankyou for your honesty,

Only after Christ gives a person the Early and Latter Rains and converts them into a child of God can they keep the commandments of Christ. They can keep them at that time ONLY because Christ governs the believer from within:

He is the one who does the works:

You lost your position when you admitted that the works of faith must be done in order for us to be saved.

Therefore faith without works is not taught by you or me.
You admit no one can be saved without works, whether God does the work of faith or we do the work of obeying Gods commandments to believe in Jesus.

btw, does not make any sense at all if God gives us commandments but does not intend for some to obey the commandments He demands all to obey.

You know God judges all on judgment day by His commandments in His gospel?
John 12:48,
- He who rejects Me and does not receive My words has that which judges him, the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day

Your jesus makes us sin against His word. The very word He warns all will be judged by in the last day.

Your god, is evil Sir!! he demands we obey His word then causes us to go against it.
Crazy

 

[Titus]

Again, you are not listening to the verses I quoted.

You dont understand the verses you quote because you have been taught to view the scriptures through TULIP colored glasses.

 

[Titus]

You were not saved by Your works of righteousness

The book of Titus... Titus 3:5
Correct not saved by my works apart from Gods grace. Not saved by mans works only does God command that man work the works of God, John 6:28-29.
God requires works of righteousness in order to receive His saving grace. Paul is teaching Titus in 3:5 that apart from Gods grace and mercy our works of righteousness did not force or make God in any way have to save us, read verse 4 then 5,
Titus 3:4-5,
- but when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done

Gods love for us did not appear because we did works of righteousness is Paul's point.
God loved us before we did any good works,
1Timothy 1:9,
- Jesus has saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works but according to His own purpose and GRACE which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

Paul teaches Titus we received Gods mercy and love and not when we did works of righteousness but before time began, before we loved Him to do His works he already had mercy on us when we were still wicked no works lost sinners. You are still a lost sinner unfortunately.

Later part of Titus 3:5 teaches we must do the work of righteousness baptism to be saved,
Titus 3:5,
- Jesus saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

Paul teaches God had love for us before we did good works.
Paul is not teaching no works of righteousness are involved in salvation as you wrongly interpret this verse.

Obedience to the faith is having faith in Christ.

its obeying John 3: 16.

Paul told Titus in Titus 3:5 that to be regenerated there must be a washing of regeneration.
Exactly what Christ taught Nicodemus in John 3:5 ; 16
- Jesus answered, Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of  water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God
John 3:16 born of water and Spirit
Titus 3:5 washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

You left out water in chapter 3 of John.
You only use verse 16 but in that chapter Jesus taught water baptism to enter the kingdom not faith only like you have perverted verse 16.
Also John 3:16 says nothing about repentance yet you claim it's all that's needed to be saved.
That one verse!!
,Then why did Jesus command that all the world hear His gospel? If faith alone is all God requires?
Mark 16:15-16,
- Go into all the world and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE, he who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned

 

[Godslittleservant]

following interested but no time right now to read all and get up to date will be back to go through this.

 

[Titus]

following interested but no time right now to read all and get up to date will be back to go through this.

Wonderful. Much appreciated if you do read all the way through

 

[Godslittleservant]

Finally read from the OP to where and Brother Titus I have to hand it to you, you are doing a great job of standing for the truth of God's word. I am in total agreement with what you have posted and defended the false teaching brought forth to you. I have nothing to add at this time for you have done a great job defending God's word keep the faith brother and I am here to back you.