SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

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Eternally Grateful

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The book of Titus... Titus 3:5
Correct not saved by my works apart from Gods grace. Not saved by mans works only does God command that man work the works of God, John 6:28-29.
God requires works of righteousness in order to receive His saving grace. Paul is teaching Titus in 3:5 that apart from Gods grace and mercy our works of righteousness did not force or make God in any way have to save us, read verse 4 then 5,
Titus 3:4-5,
- but when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done

Gods love for us did not appear because we did works of righteousness is Paul's point.
God loved us before we did any good works,
1Timothy 1:9,
- Jesus has saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works but according to His own purpose and GRACE which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

Paul teaches Titus we received Gods mercy and love and not when we did works of righteousness but before time began, before we loved Him to do His works he already had mercy on us when we were still wicked no works lost sinners. You are still a lost sinner unfortunately.

Later part of Titus 3:5 teaches we must do the work of righteousness baptism to be saved,
Titus 3:5,
- Jesus saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit
No.

Paul said it is NOT by our good deeds or works (works of righteousness we have done) But BY HIS MERCY he SAVED US (a completed action

The washing of regeneration was done by the HS not by your pastor.



Paul teaches God had love for us before we did good works.
Paul is not teaching no works of righteousness are involved in salvation as you wrongly interpret this verse.
Yes he is..
Paul told Titus in Titus 3:5 that to be regenerated there must be a washing of regeneration.
Exactly what Christ taught Nicodemus in John 3:5 ; 16
- Jesus answered, Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of  water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God
John 3:16 born of water and Spirit
Titus 3:5 washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

You left out water in chapter 3 of John.
You only use verse 16 but in that chapter Jesus taught water baptism to enter the kingdom not faith only like you have perverted verse 16.
Also John 3:16 says nothing about repentance yet you claim it's all that's needed to be saved.
That one verse!!
,Then why did Jesus command that all the world hear His gospel? If faith alone is all God requires?
Mark 16:15-16,
- Go into all the world and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE, he who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned
You left out the rest of John 3, where Jesus said HOW we are born again.

As moses lifted the serpent. So too must the son of man be lifted. That whoever believes in him will never perish (die) but has (in their possession) eternal life. For God so love THE WORLD. He gave his only begotten son that WHOEVER BELIEVES in him will NEVER PERISH (Die) but will LIVE FOREVER (HAS ETERNAL LIFE) for He was not sent in the world to judge the world. But that the world through him might be saved HE WHO BELIEVES IS NOT CONDEMNED,HE who does not believe is condemned already. Because they have not believed.

No water baptism my friend. You’re being like the jew who tried to add circumcision. You were not, nor will you ever be saved by works, it is th e blood that redeems you, you try to hand your works to God and say this is why you deserve to be saved. He will tell you to depart from him for he never knew you
 
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FaithWillDo

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You absolutely did you just don't realize that you admitted what I wanted you to say.

Your god, is evil Sir!! he demands we obey His word then causes us to go against it.
Crazy
Dear Titus,
You said:
Fact: God has given a commandment that must be obeyed/worked to be saved,
1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ...

You admitted this work is involved in salvation.
You cannot deny that we must believe in Jesus to be saved. Well you can but it would make you look ridiculous.

Now you deny that we do this work. You claim that God does this work of believing in Jesus.
It does not matter who does the work, man or God.

YOU ADMITTED THERE IS A WORK INVOLVED IN SALVATION, therefore your gospel of no works faith only has been disproven by you Sir!!!


You are either not reading my posts or you are willfully maligning what I have stated.

I have never said that there is no work involved in our salvation. I have stated over and over again that it is only mankind who has no works to perform.

Under the New Covenant, Christ does 100% of the works, both the physical works and the spiritual works. So yes, works are required for salvation but those works are not the works of mankind - they are the works of Christ. You need to re-read my first post to you. I made that point very clear there.

When Christ is ready to save a person, He will come to them and do all the necessary work of saving them. His work includes giving the person the Early Rain of the Spirit, the Latter Rain of the Spirit and finally judgment. After Christ has completed His work, the person will be converted from being a child of the devil to being a child of God.

If Christ wanted to save all mankind who are alive today, He could do so very easily. But He will not do so because He has a different plan which He is following to save mankind. Under that plan, Christ is only harvesting the First Fruits of mankind in this present age. They are the Elect who have been chosen for this honor from the foundation of the world. NO ONE ELSE CAN BE OR WILL BE SAVED IN THIS AGE.

Since mankind has no ability to contribute anything towards their own salvation, Christ alone decides who to save and when to save them.

In this age, Christ has called "many" to be saved, but from that group of "many", He is only chosen a "few" to be saved before they die. These chosen "few" are called the Elect.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

In order for the "many" to be called out from the world, they are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. With this small amount of the Spirit, they will make a confession of faith and will enter the church. But because the Early Rain will leave the new believer spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25), Satan will quickly and easily deceive them into following his "another gospel" which mixes man's works with faith. Scripture teaches that 100% of all new believers will commit this sin and will fall away. This is how all the churches which the Apostles started became apostate after their deaths.

Scripture says that when a believer mixes in their own works with faith, they are committing the sin that leads to death (loss of salvation).

Christ refers to this subject below:

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Satan is called the "crooked serpent" because his "another gospel" mixes the "crooked way" (man's works) with the "straight way" (faith alone) of Christ. When a person believes that they must add their own works to be saved, they are trying to "serve two masters". Spiritually speaking, when a person believes Satan's crooked way over Christ's straight way, they are committing adultery with Satan. This is what Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden and that is why Christ divorced them and threw them out of the Garden of Eden (a type for heaven).

Since the Elect start off the pathway to salvation by receiving the Early Rain, they, too, will commit the sin that leads to death just as the believers who are not chosen. To correct the Elect believer's fallen away spiritual state, Christ will send a converted believer to them in the spirit of Elijah who will make a call to them to repent from dead works. John the Baptist fulfilled this role for the Jewish Elect.

James mentions this truth here:

Jam 5:17 Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save their soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

After a fallen away Elect believer repents from their dead works, the pathway for Christ will be made "straight".

John 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

In Paul's conversion story which "typed" the pathway to salvation the Elect will travel, it shows that Paul fell away and became a "man of sin" during the three days he was blind and unable to eat or drink in Damascus. Because Paul fell away, the story shows that Paul was living with a man named "Judas" to reflect that Paul had become a man of sin. The story then says that as Paul prayed (a prayer of repentance), Ananias (type for Christ), travelled to Paul on a street named "Straight". When Ananias arrived, Paul received the Latter Rain and his spiritual blindness was healed. It was then that Paul was told to eat "meat" (truth). This is the same meat that Paul had been unable to eat during the three days he was in a fallen away spiritual state.

Note: The number "three" is a symbol for a spiritual process. The spiritual process Paul went through in Damascus at Judas' house was becoming "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45) - a "man of sin".

Though Paul's conversion story ends there, we can know from other scriptures that the conversion process also includes judgment. Christ's judgment will remove and destroy the spirit of anti-Christ and the worsened carnal nature (the Great Harlot) of the believer. After this judgment is complete, the believer will be converted and governed by a new spiritual nature that the Holy Spirit gives them.

Paul's salvation occurred solely by the work of Christ. Paul had no say in the matter nor did he contribute anything. And just as Paul was saved, so will the rest of the Elect of this age be saved.

Those who were called but not chosen for salvation in this age will die in their worsened spiritual condition and be judged by Christ upon their resurrection. But from that judgment, they, too, will be saved (Mat 23:23).

You said:
Your god, is evil Sir!! he demands we obey His word then causes us to go against it.
Crazy


You will regret making that statement someday when Christ reveals Himself to you.

Have you not ever considered why Christ demands that we obey His commandments when it is not possible for us to do so?

The Law of Moses was given to the Israelites to follow even though Christ knew that they would not be able to follow it. He gave it to them so that they could learn that their works would always fall short of God's standards.

When a believer realizes this same truth (the reason all believers fall away), this knowledge will lead them to Christ who will perform all the necessary works for their salvation.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

We must learn to trust solely in Christ to provide for all our needs. That is why Christ increases the Elect's "faith" when the time arrives for them to be saved with the Latter Rain. After He gives them the necessary faith, the pathway for Him to "come again" will be made straight so that He can perform all of His saving work within them.

Christ is the Savior and He alone does all the work of our salvation. He does this work because of His grace and not because we have ever done anything to deserve it. That is why scripture says:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works (man's works), lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

You would do well to believe this scripture above.

Joe
 

Grailhunter

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Dichotomy: a division into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups.

False dichotomy in salvation is the belief that it must be by Grace or it must be by works.
This is a false dichotomy because the two do not contradict!!
They both harmonize perfectly with one another.

The faith only to obtain salvation gospel advocates teach a false gospel of saving faith apart from works.
Likewise faith onlyist teach if works are involved then salvation cannot be by Grace for grace is a free gift.
This is a logical fallacy!

Grace is a free gift but grace is not unconditionally given.
Gods grace is conditional, therefore Gods grace comes with terms.

Must meet Gods terms to receive His gift of unmerited grace,
Titus 2:11-12,
- for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age

Grace teaches us we must do good works. Paul taught Titus that grace and works go together. They harmonize!
You will hear the faith onlyist use Ephesians 2:8-9 as a "proof text" we are saved without any involvement of works.

First, if salvation is apart from ALL works then we are saved without the work Christ did on the cross,
John 17:4,
- I have glorified You on earth I have finished the  work which You have given Me

Second Paul does teach in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are not saved by works.
But what must be understood is the gospel teaches there are different kinds of works.
To lump ALL works into meritorious works like for instance the commandment to be baptized, turns Jesus' gospel
in Mark 16:15-16 into a gospel that teaches we earn our salvation through a work of baptism.

The kind of works Paul condemns in Ephesians 2:8-9 is works of merit.
Paul also teaches that saving faith is a faith that works,
Galatians 5:6,
- for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision profits anything but faith  working through love
1Corinthians 7:19,
- circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but keeping the commandments of God is what matters

God requires a faith with action/obedience to His commandments in Jesus' gospel.
Only faith that works to meet Gods conditions can receive His grace!!!

When one believes in His gospel 1Corinthians 15:1-4
And obeys the commandments in His gospel,
Can one qualify to receive His unmerited favor.
Hebrews 5:8-9,
- and having been perfected, Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

Jesus' gospel is by grace through faith when faith is rightly defined.
It is a working/obedient faith that justifies the alien sinner,
James 2:24,
- you see then that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone

This faith is the only faith that is acceptable unto God,
Acts 10:35,
- but in every nation whoever fears God and works righteousness is accepted by Him

God made it very clear that anyone who teaches no obedience/works to God to be saved is not a servant of of God but of the devil, Gen. 3:3-4.
1John 2:2-5,
- and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not ours only but also for the whole world, now by this we know we know Him  if we keep His commandments, he who says I know Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him

Last we get INTO Christ by baptism,
Galatians 3:26-27,
- for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ

No spiritual blessings outside of Christ,
Ephesians 1:3,
- blessed be the God and Father of our Lord and Savior who has blessed us with EVERY spiritual blessing  in the heavenly places IN Christ

If not why not?

Salvation is not by Grace or by Works.
Grace is a function of Salvation.
Works of the Law gets you nowhere.
In Christinaity Good Deeds are not considered Works.
Good Deeds are the character and application of Christianity.
And it is are our pleasure in our walk with Christ to love one another.
Good Deeds are an expression of that love and it pleases the Lord.
 

Titus

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I have never said that there is no work involved in our salvation
Which disproves salvation by faith alone.
No such thing as salvation without works, yet folks are in religions that base their whole gospel on no works to be saved.
 

Titus

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Faith apart from works? Unbiblical!! It contradicts the true gospel we read about in the new testament.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Salvation is BY GRACE

it is THROUGH FAITH (not by Faith)

And those who ARE SAVED, are made new creatures. created FOR WORKS.

lets not get grace and works mixed up.
 

Godslittleservant

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Yes and that grace is salvation through the Lord and savior Jesus Christ by his words and believe it or not that does include the baptism in his name which connects us to the cross the main central point of the gospel of Christ.
 

FaithWillDo

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Which disproves salvation by faith alone.
No such thing as salvation without works, yet folks are in religions that base their whole gospel on no works to be saved.
Dear Titus,
I have never said that we are saved by faith alone. What I have said is that mankind has no works to perform to be saved. All the works that are performed are the works of Christ. When mankind believes that they must contribute their own works to be saved, they are mixing their own works with faith. That is the sin that leads to death.

New Covenant faith is believing that Christ will do all (100%) that is necessary to save us. It is that kind of faith that makes the pathway "straight" for Christ to come and do His works within us. That is how Christ saves His Elect under the New Covenant of Grace through faith.

Joe
 

Titus

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Dear Titus,
I have never said that we are saved by faith alone. What I have said is that mankind has no works to perform to be saved. All the works that are performed are the works of Christ. When mankind believes that they must contribute their own works to be saved, they are mixing their own works with faith. That is the sin that leads to death.

New Covenant faith is believing that Christ will do all (100%) that is necessary to save us. It is that kind of faith that makes the pathway "straight" for Christ to come and do His works within us. That is how Christ saves His Elect under the New Covenant of Grace through faith.

Joe
I agree that works are involved in salvation. Thankyou for denying a man made saying that is so often ignorantly repeated, "Saved by Faith alone" Such an unbiblical Phrase.
Now you Joe being a calvinist thinks all the things we do like our belief in Jesus,
In your reality God does the believing for us. Thus God does the work of faith in us.

If your interpretation of the Scriptures is correct then we have some serious problems.

Since according to reformed theology i.e. Calvinism
God is the one working faith in you, and the individual has no choice/ability to believe or not believe

Then who is guilty for not believing in Jesus?
Is it the man who cannot have faith unless God directly works a miracle on him through a direct operation of God?
Or
Is it God for choosing whom He will grant and withhold faith from?

It is obvious that if man cannot believe on his own freewill and God must choose each individual to grant them faith based on nothing the man desires.

Then God is gulity not man for every sinner who does not believe.
You are wasting your time trying to convince me that John Calvin understood the word of God.
Your calvinistic interpretation of the Scriptures makes God guilty for our sin and takes all responsibility off of man because we have no freewill to choose right or wrong.

Where I do agree with you is man does not perform his own works to be saved.
The Bible commands that man through his freewill choose to work Gods works,

Doing Gods works is what God Himself authorized for us to meet His conditions to receive His grace.

To deny that mans free will chooses to believe in Jesus goes against the purpose of God giving man commandments.

Soldiers do/work the commands they are given.

They person giving the command to the soldier does not work the command for the soldier

If he did, then there is no reason to give the solder a command.
The person who wants the soldier to do something could just do it for the soldier.

Commands are to be carried out by the one who is under the commanding officer's authority.

This is the only way commandments makes sense.
If the commanding officer(God) is the one doing the commandment for the soldier who has been given the command. Then there is no reason to give commands to the soldier in the first place.

Commands are always to be carried out by the one being told to do the command.
Calvinism does not make rational sense.

Thus when God gives the commandment to believe in Jesus it is mankind that must work Gods works that He authorized.

1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave us commandment

We do not do our own works. We get commandments from God, and we then work His works like faith for example.

John 6:28-29,
- Then they said to Jesus, what shall we do that we might work the works of God
Jesus answered and said to them, this is the work of God that you believe in Him whom he sent

Any doubt that we work Gods commandments is taken away when Jesus directly states we work Gods commandments here
John 14:11;12,
- Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves
most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me the works that I do he will do also and greater works than these he will do because I go to My Father


The one who believes according to Jesus is the one who does the works of God.

Conclusion: Who does the commandment of believing in Jesus? 1John 3:23-24
We do.
Therefore all commandments are Gods works that we(mankind) work

A work of man is something man himself came up with,
For instance catholic indulgences is not Authorized by God therefore it is not a work of God.

Paul condemns works that men try to do that God never authorized, Ephesians 2:8-9.

When we do Gods commandments we work the works of God that is authorized by God.
These works are known as works of righteousness.
These works are obeying Gods commandments.

Acts 10:35,
- but in every nation whoever fears God and works righteousness is accepted by God

Works of righteousness are Gods commandments, David says so,
Psalm 119:172,
- My tongue shall speak of Your word for all Your commandments are righteousness

Works of man do not save
Works of God that we must work do play a part in mans salvation.

Grace, faith and works is the true gospel of Jesus Christ in how God saves mankind.
 
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FaithWillDo

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Grace, faith and works is the true gospel of Jesus Christ in how God saves mankind.
Dear Titus,
You said:
In your reality God does the believing for us. Thus God does the work of faith in us.

No, Christ changes our heart so that we will believe and have faith in Him.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Christ does this work within us by giving us the Spirit. After we have the Spirit, we will also have a measure of faith. Faith must given to a person. It is a gift from God.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man (every believer) the measure of faith.

You said:
If your interpretation of the Scriptures is correct then we have some serious problems.
Since according to reformed theology i.e. Calvinism
God is the one working faith in you, and the individual has no choice/ability to believe or not believe


Scripture is very clear; faith is not something that any person can have unless Christ gives it to them. Unless Christ does His spiritual work within us first, no one would ever accept Him as Lord or for that matter, they wouldn't even have a desire to seek Him out. In our created state, the only choice any person can make is to "not believe". Unless Christ acts within us, we would all die in our sins.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

You said:
It is obvious that if man cannot believe on his own freewill and God must choose each individual to grant them faith based on nothing the man desires.

There are absolutely no scriptures which teach that mankind has a "free will" ability. Yes, scripture says that we have a "will" and it tells us us to choose, but it also says that it is God who causes us to make the choices we make.

Computers make choices all the time but no one would say that a computer has a free will. Don't confuse the ability to make choices as being the same thing has having the ability to make uncaused choices.

Below are just a few verses I quickly found that contradict your belief in mankind's supposed free will ability.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you a heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.


Psa 105:25 He turned their heart to hate His people, To deal craftily with His servants.

You said:
Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves
most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me the works that I do he will do also and greater works than these he will do because I go to My Father

The one who believes according to Jesus is the one who does the works of God.


Yes, we perform the works but our choice to perform those works did not originate from our supposed free will. Christ is the one who causes us to "will and do of His good pleasure (Phi 2:13). Therefore, scripture says this:

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

You said:
Grace, faith and works is the true gospel of Jesus Christ in how God saves mankind.

"Grace, faith and works" is Satan's "another gospel". When a believer accepts this false gospel, they are committing the sin that leads to death.

If you would trust Christ and believe His words, there is no way that you would think that mankind has a free will or for that matter, any ability to follow His commandments a part from Christ causes us to follow them.

Your understanding of how Christ operates in this world comes from a "works" based belief system which was given to you by the spirit of anti-Christ. If you believed God's Word, you would have a "faith" based belief system. The two belief systems are incompatible. You cannot serve two masters.

Remember, God's way are not man's ways. You need to take that truth to heart. You should pray for understanding because Christ is the only one who can give it to you. You cannot give it to yourself no matter how much supposed "free will" effort you put into it.

Joe
 

Titus

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No, Christ changes our heart so that we will believe and have faith in Him.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
When a calvinist talks about Christ changing our heart, he means God is cherry picking before the beginning of the creation of the world how He will directly give faith to and who he will withhold faith from.
So, every time you quote a verse about faith you interpret the Scriptures through TULIP colored glasses. And this is why you will continue to misunderstand every single verse on how God Grant's faith to mankind.
It's quite simple how God gives us faith.
It is never for only certain cherry picked individuals as you believe.
If it were then God is at fault for all who never get faith in Christ.

So what does the Bible really teach on  how God gives us faith today?
Answer: It is always the BIBLE!!!! Always the gospel of Jesus Christ the word of God!!!

Romans 10:17,
- so then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God

That one verse by Paul explains it all!!!

Calvinism teaches we get faith today by a miraculous DIRECT operation of the Holy Spirit.
Meaning, God must perform a miracle directly on each choosen individual so that they might have the ability to believe in Jesus.
NOWHERE IS THIS TAUGHT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.
God has already given everyone the ability to believe by their own freewill.
How? By the preaching and teaching and reading of the gospel of the new testament.

When a unbeliever hears the gospel they have the ability to believe it or reject it.
No miracle required!!!
Paul stated in Romans 10:17 that all faith comes by hearing the gospel of Christ.
Paul never said a miracle Had to take place to believe.

All faith comes from teaching today, not by miracles.
Fact: YOU WILL NEVER FIND SOMEONE IN A TRIBE FROM THE AMAZON JUNGLE OR AFRICAN JUNGLES THAT WILL TELL YOU ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT OR JESUS IF THEY HAVE NEVER HAD A BELIEVER IN THE BIBLE COME TO THEM AND TEACH THEM FROM THE BIBLE ABOUT JESUS AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

John 6:44-45,
- no one can come to Me unless the Father draw him and I will raise him up at the last day,
it is written in the prophets and they shall all be taught by God


How does God draw everyone to Him to believe in Jesus today?
They ALL ARE TAUGHT THE GOSPEL, the WORD OF GOD!!!
Romans 10:17,
- faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God

How does God call us? By the gospel, the word, Paul says this is how we are born again,
1Corinthians 4:15,
- for though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ Jesus yet you do not have many fathers for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you THROUGH THE GOSPEL

Joe, did you know in your religion it is taught folks get born again without ever hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ?
Billy Graham who was a calvinist said late in his life, that there are saved people all around the world who are in other religions.
Billy Graham said muslims who never heard the gospel or ever excepted Jesus in this life will be saved because God elected them before the world was created.
He said Hindus are saved, voodoo priests are elected, never hearing the gospel or believing in Jesus.

I'll believe the apostle Paul over a calvinist like Billy Graham!
Paul said all are begotten, born again by hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Christ does this work within us by giving us the Spirit. After we have the Spirit, we will also have a measure of faith. Faith must given to a person. It is a gift from God.
And according to calvinism God only gives this miraculous gift of faith to certain individuals
The rest He withholds faith from us because He created us to burn in hell.

Nowhere does the Scriptures teach such wickedness about the true living God.

 How does God give us this gift of faith today? Paul already told you!!!
Romans 10:17,
- faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God

The Holy Spirit revealed the word, the gospel of Christ through the apostles.
Then the apostles wrote it down for our learning.
Therefore the Holy Spirit gives us faith today by what He revealed through the Scriptures!!!
That's  how the Holy Spirit works in our belief today,
We are not called by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit today but through the word which the HS revealed to everyone who desires to read and hear it,
2Thessalonians 2:14,
- and if anyone does not obey our  word in this epistle note that person and do not keep company with him.
Holy Spirit works in us through the word today,
1Thessalonians 2:13,
- for this reason we also thank God without ceasing because when you received the word of God which you heard from us you welcomed it not as the word of men but as it is in truth the word of God which also effectively works in you who believe


The Holy Spirit works in you to believe through the word which He delieved!

The Bible teaches us we know we are saved not by some miraculous emotional experience
But by what is written!
1John 5:13,
- these things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life

John says we know that we have eternal life by what has been written.

Only by hearing the gospel does one receive faith. This is how the Holy Spirit works in us today
Romans 1:16,
- for I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for  IT is the power of God(Holy Spirit) to salvation for everyone who believes

Paul includes everyone of faith who is saved is saved by the power of hearing and believing the new testament gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the only way faith in Christ comes.

Last if calvinism is correct, then God only loves certain individuals but hates others.
This directly contradicts the Bible, for the Bible revealed that God shows no favoritism, is no respecter of persons.
Acts 10:34,
- Then Peter opened His mouth and said: in truth I perceive that God shows no partiality

Romans 2:11,
- for there is no partiality with God

"Grace, faith and works" is Satan's "another gospel".
This is quite funny to me coming from a calvinist.
Your religion has folks saved without hearing ANY GOSPEL AT ALL!!!
Now that's a "gospel" of satan!!!
 

FaithWillDo

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When a calvinist talks about Christ changing our heart, he means God is cherry picking before the beginning of the creation of the world how He will directly give faith to and who he will withhold faith from.
So, every time you quote a verse about faith you interpret the Scriptures through TULIP colored glasses. And this is why you will continue to misunderstand every single verse on how God Grant's faith to mankind.
It's quite simple how God gives us faith.
It is never for only certain cherry picked individuals as you believe.
If it were then God is at fault for all who never get faith in Christ.

So what does the Bible really teach on  how God gives us faith today?
Answer: It is always the BIBLE!!!! Always the gospel of Jesus Christ the word of God!!!

Romans 10:17,
- so then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God

That one verse by Paul explains it all!!!

Calvinism teaches we get faith today by a miraculous DIRECT operation of the Holy Spirit.
Meaning, God must perform a miracle directly on each choosen individual so that they might have the ability to believe in Jesus.
NOWHERE IS THIS TAUGHT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.
God has already given everyone the ability to believe by their own freewill.
How? By the preaching and teaching and reading of the gospel of the new testament.

When a unbeliever hears the gospel they have the ability to believe it or reject it.
No miracle required!!!
Paul stated in Romans 10:17 that all faith comes by hearing the gospel of Christ.
Paul never said a miracle Had to take place to believe.

All faith comes from teaching today, not by miracles.
Fact: YOU WILL NEVER FIND SOMEONE IN A TRIBE FROM THE AMAZON JUNGLE OR AFRICAN JUNGLES THAT WILL TELL YOU ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT OR JESUS IF THEY HAVE NEVER HAD A BELIEVER IN THE BIBLE COME TO THEM AND TEACH THEM FROM THE BIBLE ABOUT JESUS AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

John 6:44-45,
- no one can come to Me unless the Father draw him and I will raise him up at the last day,
it is written in the prophets and they shall all be taught by God


How does God draw everyone to Him to believe in Jesus today?
They ALL ARE TAUGHT THE GOSPEL, the WORD OF GOD!!!
Romans 10:17,
- faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God

How does God call us? By the gospel, the word, Paul says this is how we are born again,
1Corinthians 4:15,
- for though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ Jesus yet you do not have many fathers for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you THROUGH THE GOSPEL

Joe, did you know in your religion it is taught folks get born again without ever hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ?
Billy Graham who was a calvinist said late in his life, that there are saved people all around the world who are in other religions.
Billy Graham said muslims who never heard the gospel or ever excepted Jesus in this life will be saved because God elected them before the world was created.
He said Hindus are saved, voodoo priests are elected, never hearing the gospel or believing in Jesus.

I'll believe the apostle Paul over a calvinist like Billy Graham!
Paul said all are begotten, born again by hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ.


And according to calvinism God only gives this miraculous gift of faith to certain individuals
The rest He withholds faith from us because He created us to burn in hell.

Nowhere does the Scriptures teach such wickedness about the true living God.

 How does God give us this gift of faith today? Paul already told you!!!
Romans 10:17,
- faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God

The Holy Spirit revealed the word, the gospel of Christ through the apostles.
Then the apostles wrote it down for our learning.
Therefore the Holy Spirit gives us faith today by what He revealed through the Scriptures!!!
That's  how the Holy Spirit works in our belief today,
We are not called by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit today but through the word which the HS revealed to everyone who desires to read and hear it,
2Thessalonians 2:14,
- and if anyone does not obey our  word in this epistle note that person and do not keep company with him.
Holy Spirit works in us through the word today,
1Thessalonians 2:13,
- for this reason we also thank God without ceasing because when you received the word of God which you heard from us you welcomed it not as the word of men but as it is in truth the word of God which also effectively works in you who believe


The Holy Spirit works in you to believe through the word which He delieved!

The Bible teaches us we know we are saved not by some miraculous emotional experience
But by what is written!
1John 5:13,
- these things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life

John says we know that we have eternal life by what has been written.

Only by hearing the gospel does one receive faith. This is how the Holy Spirit works in us today
Romans 1:16,
- for I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for  IT is the power of God(Holy Spirit) to salvation for everyone who believes

Paul includes everyone of faith who is saved is saved by the power of hearing and believing the new testament gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the only way faith in Christ comes.

Last if calvinism is correct, then God only loves certain individuals but hates others.
This directly contradicts the Bible, for the Bible revealed that God shows no favoritism, is no respecter of persons.
Acts 10:34,
- Then Peter opened His mouth and said: in truth I perceive that God shows no partiality

Romans 2:11,
- for there is no partiality with God


This is quite funny to me coming from a calvinist.
Your religion has folks saved without hearing ANY GOSPEL AT ALL!!!
Now that's a "gospel" of satan!!!
Dear Titus,
I would respond to you again if I thought that it might help you in some way. But you really don't get your understanding of Christ and the Gospel from scripture. All the verses that I have quoted to you have fallen on deaf ears.

Also, I am not a Calvinist. I do not associate with any church or sect. My beliefs come from solely from scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

This is my last post on this thread.
Joe
 

Godslittleservant

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Dear Titus,
I would respond to you again if I thought that it might help you in some way. But you really don't get your understanding of Christ and the Gospel from scripture. All the verses that I have quoted to you have fallen on deaf ears.

Also, I am not a Calvinist. I do not associate with any church or sect. My beliefs come from solely from scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

This is my last post on this thread.
Joe
Just lurking but couldn't help but say something to this remark.
But you really don't get your understanding of Christ and the Gospel from scripture. All the verses that I have quoted to you have fallen on deaf ears.
My dear brother do you not realize that this could be said of you also? Brother Titus has responded to you with just as much scripture to debunk the interpenetration of yours as you have him. The problem is there is only one truth of Gods word so you each must see who's correctly align with scripture and it looks from my side that maybe it falls with brother Titus more so than with you.

Maybe we all should be more eager to check our beliefs with scripture rather than stand on the high ground that we can not be in error.
 
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Titus

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I would respond to you again if I thought that it might help you in some way. But you really don't get your understanding of Christ and the Gospel from scripture
Everything I teach I back up with book, chapter and verse.
All the verses that I have quoted to you have fallen on deaf ears.
It is you who does not understand the Scriptures you quote
Also, I am not a Calvinist. I do not associate with any church or sect
A great majority in "christendom" today are woefully ignorant that what they believe comes from specific theologies from the not so distant past. You may not believe you're a calvinist but you interpret the scriptures exactly as reformed theology teaches.

I do not associate with any church or sect.
You are not associated with any church?!!!
Sir, do you not know that it is modern false teaching that says "give me Jesus not religion"
"I just follow the Man not a church that is organized religion"

These ideas are 100% unbiblical error!!!

First if someone says they are against religion or organized religion then all that is left is dis-organized religion.

Second, religion is what God created for His people to be involved in.
The modern idea that religion is bad goes against the Bible,
James 1:26-27,
- Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this to visit orphans and widows in their trouble and to keep oneself unspotted from the world

I'm in a organized religion and its founder is God.

Third, Sir, do you not realize that Jesus Christ died for the church and that only in His church is where all the saved are?

In Acts 2 when the church began in 33ad it is said that God adds the saved to His church,
Acts 2:47,
- praising God and having favor with all the people and the Lord added to the church daily those were were being saved

God puts all the saved in His church!!!

Notice Christs body is the church and vice versa,
Colossians 1:18,
- And Jesus is the Head of the body the church who is the beginning the firstborn from the dead that in all things He may have the preeminence

The body of Christ is the church of Christ.
Now listen to who Jesus died for?
Notice, Jesus only is the Savior of who?

Ephesians 5:23,
- for the husband is head of the wife as also Christ is head of the  church and He is the Savior of the body

Did you get that?
Christ is the Savior of His church which is His body!!!

Therefore only those who are saved are in church, His church!!

Now look what you admitted,
I do not associate with any church
We have a serious problem here Sir!!!

You admitted that you are not in a church.
You must be in His church because Jesus only saves those in His body!!!
 
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FaithWillDo

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Everything I teach I back up with book, chapter and verse.

It is you who does not understand the Scriptures you quote

A great majority in "christendom" today are woefully ignorant that what they believe comes from specific theologies from the not so distant past. You may not believe you're a calvinist but you interpret the scriptures exactly as reformed theology teaches.


You are not associated with any church?!!!
Sir, do you not know that it is modern false teaching that says "give me Jesus not religion"
"I just follow the Man not a church that is organized religion"

These ideas are 100% unbiblical error!!!

First if someone says they are against religion or organized religion then all that is left is dis-organized religion.

Second, religion is what God created for His people to be involved in.
The modern idea that religion is bad goes against the Bible,
James 1:26-27,
- Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this to visit orphans and widows in their trouble and to keep oneself unspotted from the world

I'm in a organized religion and its founder is God.

Third, Sir, do you not realize that Jesus Christ died for the church and that only in His church is where all the saved are?

In Acts 2 when the church began in 33ad it is said that God adds the saved to His church,
Acts 2:47,
- praising God and having favor with all the people and the Lord added to the church daily those were were being saved

God puts all the saved in His church!!!

Notice Christs body is the church and vice versa,
Colossians 1:18,
- And Jesus is the Head of the body the church who is the beginning the firstborn from the dead that in all things He may have the preeminence

The body of Christ is the church of Christ.
Now listen to who Jesus died for?
Notice, Jesus only is the Savior of who?

Ephesians 5:23,
- for the husband is head of the wife as also Christ is head of the  church and He is the Savior of the body

Did you get that?
Christ is the Savior of His church which is His body!!!

Therefore only those who are saved are in church, His church!!

Now look what you admitted,

We have a serious problem here Sir!!!

You admitted that you are not in a church.
You must be in His church because Jesus only saves those in His body!!!
Dear Titus,
I decided to make one more post.

All the churches that the Apostles started (100% of them) became apostate shortly after Paul's death. The spirit of anti-Christ came into those churches and devoured them. They should not be called Christian churches any longer. They have accepted another Jesus, another spirit and they follow another gospel. This is Satan's gospel and it teaches a gospel that mixes man's works with faith just as you do. When a new believer accepts this false gospel (and they do 100% of the time), they will fall from grace and lose their salvation.

For the Elect who remain in these churches, Christ will "come again" to them and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them. From this baptism, they will be judged and converted. This is the pathway to salvation that all the Elect will travel to be saved. They travel it because Christ directs their steps. Christ leaves nothing up to chance or to man's will. Christ is mankind's God and will do as He pleases in this creation. No one can stay his hand.

The apostate churches (all 2,000 different denominations/sects) created and teach a false doctrine called Hell. It is a hideous doctrine void of love and mercy. It makes Christ out to be worse than the worst of mankind. Nothing could be more blasphemous.

The Lake of Fire is a spiritual symbol for Christ's judgment. It is not literal fire nor does the judgment last "for ever and ever". His judgment is only for the age. When His judgment within a person is complete, they will be saved. Christ will not end His work until He has saved each and every person who has ever lived. Anything short of 100% success would be a sin for Him. In the end, this verse will be proven to be true:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Christ is the one who does the work of saving mankind. At a time of Christ's choosing, each person will all be changed from within when He gives them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. Christ does not ask anyone for permission to make this change within them. But after He does, the person's heart will be changed and they will accept Him as Lord. Without the Spirit, no one can make a confession of faith. Mankind has no free will ability to do otherwise.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Right before Christ comes to an Elect believer the second time, the person will be in a fallen away state and under Satan's deceptions in the apostate church. But after Christ freely gives them the Latter Rain and heals their spiritual blindness, they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation that occurred in within them (Mat 24:15). Immediately after this revelation, judgment will fall on the believer to rid them of the spirit of anti-Christ and to destroy their carnal nature (Mat 24:16). This spiritual process is called conversion. Christ decides when anyone will be converted. In this age, Christ is only converting the Elect who have been chosen for this blessing from the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

The Elect believer had no say in the matter. It was decided by God before they were even born:

Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

There is no room for your false doctrine of free will in how Christ saves mankind. That doctrine is just one of the many false doctrines which are taught in apostate churches of the world. Until that truth is revealed to you, you will remain under Satan's deceptions and control. You are at the mercy of Christ to change that situation. You have no free will ability to do it yourself. You must wait on the Lord to act in your life.

Again, if I thought I could help you, I would continue on this thread - but I see no signs that Christ is working in you right now. It is time for me to leave this thread. I don't plan on responding again.

Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Joe
 

Titus

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Joe, you teach stuff that proves you do not believe in the Bible nor understand what you are saying.

All the churches that the Apostles started (100% of them) became apostate shortly after Paul's death. The spirit of anti-Christ came into those churches and devoured them. They should not be called Christian churches any longer
This belief of yours could never be proven with Scripture. That's why you gave none for this particular belief.
You claim every church that was established in the new testament became apostate churches.
YOU HAVE NO SCRIPTURE TO PROVE THAT ACCUSATION.

Biblical Fact: Jesus Himself said once He established His church, it would NEVER BE DESTROYED.

Therefore your belief of 100% of every church in the new testament falling into apostasy is directly opposed to what Jesus proclaimed about His church,
Matthew 16:18-19,
- and I also say to you that you are Peter and on this rock I will build My church and the gates of Hades SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT

It was Jesus Himself that said He established His church
And Jesus said that nothing will destroy it once Jesus established it.

You can deny the Lords church has existed from the time Jesus established it, until He returns to deliver it up into heaven.
All you are doing is disagreeing with Jesus.

It is God Himself that adds ALL the saved to it,
Acts 2:47,
- praising God and having favor with all the people and the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved

Acts 2:47 was when Jesus had gone back to sit on the right hand of His Father in heaven.
It is said that the Lord is adding the saved to His church while He is in heaven!!!!

This disproves your error that no church exists today that is sound.
You think God is so weak that He failed to accomplish what He came here to do?

This proves that God adds all the saved to His church.
To say you are not in the Lords church is to admit you were never saved.
Since when Joe, did God stop adding the saved to His church? Give book, chapter and verse?

The church and the kingdom are one in the same!!!
The kingdom will never be destroyed, therefore the church of Christ will never be destroyed.

Matthew 16:18-19,
- and I also say to you that you are Peter and on this rock I will build My church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it
and I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven


Notice Jesus says He will build His church then immediately He tells Peter he will be given the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus speaks of the church and His kingdom interchangeably!!!
Notice Jesus tells Peter that the keys unlock(loose) and lock(bound) both here on earth(church) and those same keys unlock(loose) and lock(bound) in heaven(kingdom)

Therefore the church keys fit the church and those same keys fit the kingdom in heaven!!!!
Jesus teaches the kingdom is here on earth as the church.
And Jesus teaches the church on earth will be delivered up into heaven when He returns!!!
Keys only fit a specific lock.
Thus the kingdom of God and Gods church are one in the same!!!

God says He will deliver up His church/kingdom the saved which He added to heaven when He returns,
1Thessalonians 4:17,
- then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together(saved God added to His church/kingdom) with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and thus we shall always be with the Lord

The kingdom has already been established because the church has already been established.
John says he was in the kingdom. Meaning John is already in the Kingdom of God.

Revelation 1:9,
- I John your brother and companion in the tribulation and  kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ

John says he is already in the kingdom while on the island of Patmos.

Notice Jesus say to people He was speaking to that they will see the kingdom of God before they physically die,
Matthew 16:28,
- assuredly I say to you(those standing there before Jesus) there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom

This proves the kingdom is here just as the church is here.
If the kingdom is not yet established then we have extremely old people that spoke to Jesus face to face still alive waiting to see the coming of His kingdom!!! Not possible!!!!

Jesus is the Savior of His body which is His church/kingdom, Ephesians 5:23.
To deny Jesus died to save His church and add them to His kingdom is to deny the word of God!!


Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Again if you knew the context of the works Paul is speaking about you would not make the mistake that no works at all are involved in our salvation!
Romans 9:11 the works that are not involved in our election is the works of the old law of Moses, Old covenant with the jews.
You do not know the context of the verses you quote Sir.
Jesus Himself said we will be judged in the last day by our works!!!
That proves works are absolutely involved in where we spend our eternity.

John 12:48,
- he who rejects Me and does not receive My words has that which judges him, the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day

Revelation 20:12,
- and I saw the dead small and great standing before God and books were opened and another book was opened which is the book of life and the dead were judged according to their  works by the things which were written in the books

Judged by our works who obeyed the word of the Lord by keeping His commandments or those who refused to work Gods commandments. Salvation is dependent on our obedience to God.

1John 1:4,
- he who says I know God and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him


being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.
Sir, I dont deny predestination. I deny the Scripture twisting mis- interpretation of calvinistic predestination.
 
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Keiw

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Dichotomy: a division into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups.

False dichotomy in salvation is the belief that it must be by Grace or it must be by works.
This is a false dichotomy because the two do not contradict!!
They both harmonize perfectly with one another.

The faith only to obtain salvation gospel advocates teach a false gospel of saving faith apart from works.
Likewise faith onlyist teach if works are involved then salvation cannot be by Grace for grace is a free gift.
This is a logical fallacy!

Grace is a free gift but grace is not unconditionally given.
Gods grace is conditional, therefore Gods grace comes with terms.

Must meet Gods terms to receive His gift of unmerited grace,
Titus 2:11-12,
- for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age

Grace teaches us we must do good works. Paul taught Titus that grace and works go together. They harmonize!
You will hear the faith onlyist use Ephesians 2:8-9 as a "proof text" we are saved without any involvement of works.

First, if salvation is apart from ALL works then we are saved without the work Christ did on the cross,
John 17:4,
- I have glorified You on earth I have finished the  work which You have given Me

Second Paul does teach in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are not saved by works.
But what must be understood is the gospel teaches there are different kinds of works.
To lump ALL works into meritorious works like for instance the commandment to be baptized, turns Jesus' gospel
in Mark 16:15-16 into a gospel that teaches we earn our salvation through a work of baptism.

The kind of works Paul condemns in Ephesians 2:8-9 is works of merit.
Paul also teaches that saving faith is a faith that works,
Galatians 5:6,
- for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision profits anything but faith  working through love
1Corinthians 7:19,
- circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but keeping the commandments of God is what matters

God requires a faith with action/obedience to His commandments in Jesus' gospel.
Only faith that works to meet Gods conditions can receive His grace!!!

When one believes in His gospel 1Corinthians 15:1-4
And obeys the commandments in His gospel,
Can one qualify to receive His unmerited favor.
Hebrews 5:8-9,
- and having been perfected, Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

Jesus' gospel is by grace through faith when faith is rightly defined.
It is a working/obedient faith that justifies the alien sinner,
James 2:24,
- you see then that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone

This faith is the only faith that is acceptable unto God,
Acts 10:35,
- but in every nation whoever fears God and works righteousness is accepted by Him

God made it very clear that anyone who teaches no obedience/works to God to be saved is not a servant of of God but of the devil, Gen. 3:3-4.
1John 2:2-5,
- and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not ours only but also for the whole world, now by this we know we know Him  if we keep His commandments, he who says I know Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him

Last we get INTO Christ by baptism,
Galatians 3:26-27,
- for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ

No spiritual blessings outside of Christ,
Ephesians 1:3,
- blessed be the God and Father of our Lord and Savior who has blessed us with EVERY spiritual blessing  in the heavenly places IN Christ

If not why not?
The only ones who have Jesus and will be saved-Obey Everything Jesus taught.(John 15:10-14) And the big one is-Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God--that = OT-NT, 1540 pages give or take. That means the teachers on earth who Jesus is with, teach without fail to the flock-EVERY utterance from God. All can look at their teachers right now and see if Jesus is with them. Otherwise the bible calls the others-blind guides. They are these-2Cor 11:12-15)
 

Keiw

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Dear Titus,
I decided to make one more post.

All the churches that the Apostles started (100% of them) became apostate shortly after Paul's death. The spirit of anti-Christ came into those churches and devoured them. They should not be called Christian churches any longer. They have accepted another Jesus, another spirit and they follow another gospel. This is Satan's gospel and it teaches a gospel that mixes man's works with faith just as you do. When a new believer accepts this false gospel (and they do 100% of the time), they will fall from grace and lose their salvation.

For the Elect who remain in these churches, Christ will "come again" to them and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them. From this baptism, they will be judged and converted. This is the pathway to salvation that all the Elect will travel to be saved. They travel it because Christ directs their steps. Christ leaves nothing up to chance or to man's will. Christ is mankind's God and will do as He pleases in this creation. No one can stay his hand.

The apostate churches (all 2,000 different denominations/sects) created and teach a false doctrine called Hell. It is a hideous doctrine void of love and mercy. It makes Christ out to be worse than the worst of mankind. Nothing could be more blasphemous.

The Lake of Fire is a spiritual symbol for Christ's judgment. It is not literal fire nor does the judgment last "for ever and ever". His judgment is only for the age. When His judgment within a person is complete, they will be saved. Christ will not end His work until He has saved each and every person who has ever lived. Anything short of 100% success would be a sin for Him. In the end, this verse will be proven to be true:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Christ is the one who does the work of saving mankind. At a time of Christ's choosing, each person will all be changed from within when He gives them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. Christ does not ask anyone for permission to make this change within them. But after He does, the person's heart will be changed and they will accept Him as Lord. Without the Spirit, no one can make a confession of faith. Mankind has no free will ability to do otherwise.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Right before Christ comes to an Elect believer the second time, the person will be in a fallen away state and under Satan's deceptions in the apostate church. But after Christ freely gives them the Latter Rain and heals their spiritual blindness, they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation that occurred in within them (Mat 24:15). Immediately after this revelation, judgment will fall on the believer to rid them of the spirit of anti-Christ and to destroy their carnal nature (Mat 24:16). This spiritual process is called conversion. Christ decides when anyone will be converted. In this age, Christ is only converting the Elect who have been chosen for this blessing from the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

The Elect believer had no say in the matter. It was decided by God before they were even born:

Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

There is no room for your false doctrine of free will in how Christ saves mankind. That doctrine is just one of the many false doctrines which are taught in apostate churches of the world. Until that truth is revealed to you, you will remain under Satan's deceptions and control. You are at the mercy of Christ to change that situation. You have no free will ability to do it yourself. You must wait on the Lord to act in your life.

Again, if I thought I could help you, I would continue on this thread - but I see no signs that Christ is working in you right now. It is time for me to leave this thread. I don't plan on responding again.

Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Joe
Jesus started a single religion, i believe it died out after Jesus, apostles and followers were all murdered, 2Thess 2:3 rose in its place( the religion that came out of Rome=Catholicism and her hundreds of branches(protestants)--Here in these last days, Jesus' 1 religion came back.