SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

[GracePeace]

Excellent.

In other words, since I believe all of Scripture, not just my favorite parts, I don't believe EITHER we have been given eternal life, and that that life is located only "in His Son" (1 Jn 5), OR "doers of good will be repaid with eternal life" (Gal 6), but a synthesis of the two that is found in Scripture: 1 Jn 3:23,24 says doing good, by grace through faith, is required for abiding in Christ, and, since that is where the eternal life is located, in that sense, since it was only by mercy and grace that we are "in Christ" in the first place, eternal life is a gift we have now, yet, since eternal life is "repaid" only doers of good, this refers to abiding in Him, where we were placed, where the eternal life is located, by doing good.

I cannot dismiss verses of Scripture.

 

[Behold]

In other words, since I believe all of Scripture, not just my favorite parts, I don't believe EITHER we have been given eternal life, and that that life is located only "in His Son" (1 Jn 5), OR "doers of good will be repaid with eternal life" (Gal 6)

Doer's of good, is anyone who is going a good work.

So, if a rapist, or a axe murderer, or HITLER< gave money to an orphan, then according to your concept of the verse they have eternal life.
Hummm.
You need to rethink your Theology, asap.

Also, being GIVEN Eternal life is to receive by Faith, the One who is Himself Eternal life.
The born again have Jesus in them, and they are "in Christ" who IS Eternal Life.
See it yet? @GracePeace ?
That's why the born again HAVE, eternal life, and that is why the born again can KNOW they have it..... John teaches.

 

[GracePeace]

Doer's of good, is anyone who is going a good work.

So, if a rapist, or a axe murderer, or HITLER< gave money to an orphan, then according to your concept of the verse they have eternal life.
Hummm.
You need to rethink your Theology, asap.

Also, being GIVEN Eternal life is to receive by Faith, the One who is Himself Eternal life.
The born again have Jesus in them, and they are "in Christ" who IS Eternal Life.
See it yet? @GracePeace ?
That's why the born again HAVE, eternal life, and that is why the born again can KNOW they have it..... John teaches.

It seems you deny Scripture that explicitly teaches eternal life is a harvest reaped only by doers of good, then--I explained how I embrace both that doctrine and the doctrine you raised (ie, in that we currently have eternal life).

Am I wrong for affirming Scripture?

If it doesn't mean what I'm saying it means, please go ahead and offer the "correct" interpretation of Galatians 6:6-10.

 

[Behold]

It seems you deny Scripture that explicitly teaches eternal life is a harvest reaped only by doers of good, then--I embrace that doctrine.

It seems that now that you can't find an answer in your commentary, all you can do now is accuse me falsely.

You'll never be able to prove that i deny scriptures.
All you can do, is imply it, and then say..."gotcha"

You got nothing, @GracePeace .... except for your theological confusion emoting as your presentation.

Its interesting , that ive noted over the years that people who use the word "GRACE" in their ALT, never understand anything about the Grace of God.

You are proving to be one of those.

Am I wrong for affirming Scripture?

You posted your concept, and now you say this is affirming it.

Try again.
Guess again.

also, posting verses you dont understand , and then saying...>"proved it".. is not going to work out for you, next time, or the next 40.
But you can keep trying it.
As your type always does.. this.

Galatians 6:6-10.

Ok here you go.

Romans 3:21-28.

You'll need a bible.

 

[GracePeace]

Doer's of good, is anyone who is going a good work.

So, if a rapist, or a axe murderer, or HITLER< gave money to an orphan, then according to your concept of the verse they have eternal life.
Hummm.
You need to rethink your Theology asap.

No, lol, that is not my belief at all, and I can't believe any honest person would concluded such a thing from anything I've written.

Someone who abides in Christ has a dedication to God, and keeps God's commands--they're not raping or genociding people, they're serving God.

 

[GracePeace]

It seems that now that you can't find an answer in your commentary, all you can do now is accuse me falsely.

You'll never be able to prove that i deny scriptures.
All you can do, is imply it, and then say..."gotcha"

You got nothing, except for your theological confusion as your presentation.

Its interesting , that ive noted over the years that people who use the word "GRACE" in their ALT, never understand anything about Grace.

You are proving to be one of those.




You posted your concept, and now you say this is affirming it.

Try again.
Guess again.

also, posting verses, and saying...>"proved it".. is not going to work out for you.
But you can keep trying it.
As your type always does.. this.





Ok here you go.

Romans 3:21-28.

You'll need a bible.

Nope, read Galatians 6:6-10, word by word, and tell me what it teaches. I didn't ask you about Romans 3. When you run to another concept you think proves your point (it doesn't), that's a logical fallacy called "begging the question".

 

[Behold]

No, lol, that is not my belief at all, and I can't believe any honest person would concluded such a thing from anything I've written.

If you were honest, you'd realize that you posted a verse that deals with "doing" and you tried to falsely prove that this is a part of receiving eternal life.

Im just being honest.

Try it.

Someone who abides in Christ has a dedication to God, and keeps God's commands--they're not raping or genociding people, they're serving God.

Keeping God's commands, or Moses's Law, has nothing to do with why a born again person has "eternal life".

 

[Behold]

Nope, read Galatians 6:6-10, word by word, and tell me what it teaches.

Read it yourself.

See, i understand that Jesus is Eternal life.
I just taught this to YOU.
You dont see it yet.
So, you read your own verses.
Take your time.
And read Romans 3:21-28 also, as this will help you with your Soteriology Theology, which needs some help.

 

[Behold]

#1. saved by faith in Christ, without the requirement of any good works?

Yes.
Because if works were required then Salvation is not based on God's Grace.

#2. saved by faith in Christ, with the requirement of doing good works?

Again, this would be God accepting us, not wholly based on the Cross of Christ.
And if that were the case then Salvation is not a "Gift".
And "Salvation IS a Gift". Its THE Gift of mercy and grace.

#3. saved by faith in Christ, with the requirement of having Christ's good works?

No.

You can't be saved by FAITH, and then it have works as a part of it.

Salvation is The Gift of Salvation, that is based on the Cross of Christ.

Once we have it, then we are to walk the walk...(discipleship)... we are to learn to allow God to live through us, His Life.

This is why Paul said..."i die Daily"., and that means,"I die to SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS and DO'ism, daily".. "I die to myself as my own savior, daily"..

 

[GracePeace]

Read it yourself.

See, i understand that Jesus is Eternal life.
I just taught this to YOU.
You dont see it yet.
So, you read your own verses.
Take your time.
And read Romans 3:21-28 also, as this will help you with your Soteriology Theology, which needs some help.

Galatians 6
6The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. 10So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

I'm just believing God.
Is that a "sin" to you?

 

[Behold]

Galatians 6
6The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. 10So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

I'm just believing God.
Is that a "sin"?

Notice that "sowing to the spirit" is one idea... and the next idea is..."" reaping if we dont grow weary""..... and then there is the point about """doing good to all people.""

You are trying to SEE THIS as "ONE IDEA", related to eternal life.... and its 3 ideas, and only the "sowing to the Spirit" reaps eternal life.
Why?
Because Salvation only deals with Spiritual Birth that comes from GOD, and that has nothing to do with being good to other people or "not growing weary".
Listen, a born again Christian, is born again.. Its DONE... You dont have to reap and work and toil, till you are weary to try to be born again.
All you do is give God your FAITH , in Christ, and your faith is accepted by God......and He gives you forgiveness of all sin, and the NEW Birth.
You dont work, or toil, or sweat, for that, as that is God's GIFT of Salvation...
Its a GIFT....
So, to sow to the Spirit, is SPIRITUAL... its not a work as in giving to the poor..
How do you know?
Because the 3rd idea, is "reaping" as in "doing good"., it says..

And the reaping that you do, that is the return investment for being good to people.. comes back to you down here.
"Sowing and reaping" and ""pressed down, shaken together, and running over"..

So, there is sowing to the Spirit, and then there is sowing and reaping and waiting for the benefit.

 

[GracePeace]

If you were honest, you'd realize that you posted a verse that deals with "doing" and you tried to falsely prove that this is a part of receiving eternal life.

Im just being honest.

Try it.




Keeping God's commands, or Moses's Law, has nothing to do with why a born again person has "eternal life".

For the record, and for clarity, I'm not saying we are under the Law of Moses.

1 John says the love of God is that we keep His commands, and they are not burdensome to us--you misinterpreted me as having said "a murderer can earn eternal life if he does a good deed", but that wasn't what I meant, I meant Christians, who are in Christ as a gift, remain in Christ by doing good deeds, thus, since eternal life is in Him, it is both a gift and a payment for good deeds done together with God by grace.

 

[GracePeace]

Notice that "sowing to the spirit" is one idea... and the next idea is..."" reaping if we dont grow weary""..... and then there is the point about """doing good to all people.""

You are trying to SEE THIS as "ONE IDEA", related to eternal life.... and its 3 ideas, and only the "sowing to the Spirit" reaps eternal life.
Why?
Because Salvation only deals with Spiritual Birth that comes from GOD, and that has nothing to do with being good to other people or "not growing weary".
Listen, a born again Christian, is born again.. Its DONE... You dont have to reap and work and toil, till you are weary to try to be born again.
All you do is give God your FAITH , in Christ, and your faith is accepted by God......and He gives you forgiveness of all sin, and the NEW Birth.
You dont work, or toil, or sweat, for that, as that is God's GIFT of Salvation...
Its a GIFT....
So, to sow to the Spirit, is SPIRITUAL... its not a work as in giving to the poor..
How do you know?
Because the 3rd idea, is "reaping" as in "doing good"., it says..

And the reaping that you do, that is the return investment for being good to people.. comes back to you down here.
"Sowing and reaping" and ""pressed down, shaken together, and running over"..

So, there is sowing to the Spirit, and then there is sowing and reaping and waiting for the benefit.

The entire passage is about doing good, from start to finish. It's one cohesive whole. He, then, explains that "in due time" you will reap the harvest of eternal life from the Spirit if you continue to sow to the Spirit by doing good deeds and do not quit doing good after a while.

It's not complicated.

Complication, atomization, of the passage is your friend, bc you can only preserve your view through obfuscation.
You want to isolate it from itself, confuse it, commit "eisegesis", because of your views you hold prior to going in to the passage (in fact, what the passage is doing is exposing your misunderstanding of Paul's teachings, because Paul is clearly teaching contrary to what you claim he teaches elsewhere); I, on the other hand, just read it honestly, come what may.

 

[Gottservant]

A balance of works and faith is good, a balance of peace and calm is better (selah)

 

[Behold]

For the record, and for clarity, I'm not saying we are under the Law of Moses.

We can't be under Moses's Law and be.. "not under the Law, but under Grace".

""Christ is the end of the LAW, for everyone who believes" (born again).

Now, you can be fallen from Grace. and the proof of this, is if you believe you can lose your Salvation.

That belief, proves you are "fallen from Grace" and "bewitched", and Paul also says.. "that you dont obey the Truth"

1 John says the love of God is that we keep His commands, and they are not burdensome to us--you misinterpreted me as having said "a murderer can earn eternal life if he does a good deed",

Let me quote you, as you are now just trying to do damage control.

Here is your quote..

""""" doing good, by grace through faith, is required for abiding in Christ,"""

So, you just twisted the verse, and taught that "doing good" is required for being "in Christ'.....when in fact the way you become "in Christ", is to be BORN AGAIN, into Christ, as "one with God".
That is not of yourself.
No works required, just FAITH that is "counted by God as righteousness".
The only way to "abide in Christ" is to be born again.

So, you are trying to add works to salvation, because that is what a Legalist always does.
So, among other things.... What im trying to get you to see, is that an unbeliever can do works of righteousness, but they are not righteous, and they dont have eternal life.

but that wasn't what I meant, I meant Christians, who are in Christ as a gift, remain in Christ by doing good deeds,

Absolutely not.
You are not accepted by God to begin with, based on works., so, you are not kept by God based on works.

See, what can't save you to begin with, can't keep you saved later.. if you try to do it.

Think now...., = Legalism, is the theology that says....>"God started my Salvation with the Cross, ... but now i have to keep myself saved, by my self effort".

So, what is that? That is SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS.......that you are teaching.

Self Righteousness, is trying to make SELF...RIGHT with God = by SELF EFFORT.

That's LEGALISM

That's trying to "stay saved", vs real trust in Christ to save you and keep you saved.

 

[GracePeace]

We can't be under Moses's Law and be.. "not under the Law, but under Grace".

""Christ is the end of the LAW, for everyone who believes" (born again).

Now, you can be fallen from Grace. and the proof of this, is if you believe you can lose your Salvation.

That belief, proves you are "fallen from Grace" and "bewitched", and Paul also says.. "that you dont obey the Truth"



Let me quote you, as you are now just trying to do damage control.

Here is your quote..

""""" doing good, by grace through faith, is required for abiding in Christ,"""

So, you just twisted the verse, and taught that "doing good" is required for being "in Christ'.....when in fact the way you become "in Christ", is to be BORN AGAIN, into Christ, as "one with God".
That is not of yourself.
No works required, just FAITH that is "counted by God as righteousness".
The only way to "abide in Christ" is to be born again.

So, you are trying to add works to salvation, because that is what a Legalist always does.
So, among other things.... What im trying to get you to see, is that an unbeliever can do works of righteousness, but they are not righteous, and they dont have eternal life.



Absolutely not.
You are not accepted by God to begin with, based on works., so, you are not kept by God based on works.

See, what can't save you to begin with, can't keep you saved later.. if you try to do it.

Think now...., = Legalism, is the theology that says....>"God started my Salvation with the Cross, ... but now i have to keep myself saved, by my self effort".

So, what is that? That is SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS.......that you are teaching.

Self Righteousness, is trying to make SELF...RIGHT with God = by SELF EFFORT.

That's LEGALISM

That's trying to "stay saved", vs real trust in Christ to save you and keep you saved.

So, John, whose words I cited, and Paul, whose words I cited, are "under Law"?

You can use all the "smear" tactics (eg, "LEGALISM!") you please, but none of those emotions are going to change Scriptures I quoted.

 

[Behold]

The entire passage is about doing good, from start to finish.

Sowing to the spirit, is more than trying to do good.
Walking in the spirit, is more then trying to do good.

It's one cohesive whole. He, then, explains that "in due time" you will reap the harvest of eternal life

Jesus said that He gives you eternal life if you Believe.

Being born again is the PROOF you have Eternal life, as Jesus who Himself is eternal life, is IN the Born again, and they are IN CHRIST, who Himself is eternal life.

You say.... ."no, let me show you this verse i dont understand, to try to prove that eternal live comes later, like in '2028, or maybe, '2087, if we dont become weary in well doing.

It's not complicated.

It is for you.
You keep proving it to us.

Complication, atomization, of the passage is your friend, bc you can only preserve your view through obfuscation.

You are trying to "sound smart" and that is opposite of the reality.
C'mon now.
You can do better.

You want to isolate it from itself, confuse it, commit "eisegesis", because of your views you hold prior to going in to the passage

Not at all.
What i do is what any real teacher of the NT does, .. i only teach the verses based on Paul's doctrine.
"Pauline Theology".
See, "rightly dividing" is a Paul verse/phrase, and to do this, you have to use Paul's theolog, to open John's verses and Peter's and Jude's, and the rest of the NT.
The NT is a locked box and Paul's Theology is the KEY that opens it.
This is why when you read James for example..., you have to use Paul's doctrine to "eisegesis" James, moreso then some of the others, as James gets a bit Jewish and Lawful, at times..

(in fact, what the passage is doing is exposing your misunderstanding of Paul's teachings, because Paul is clearly teaching contrary to what you claim he teaches elsewhere); I, on the other hand, just read it honestly, come what may.

Paul teaches ""Grace through 'faith", as the Gift of God."
Never does he teach.. "eternal life comes later, once you earned it by doing good works".
In fact, in Philippians says that all your self effort to be accepted by God, is "dung".

Eternal Life is a GiFT, just Like Salvation, and Righteousness.

So let me show you some Paul, that you haven't read yet.
This for example..

For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE = in Christ Jesus our Lord."

See that Gift?
No you dont....not yet,.

 

[Behold]

So, John, whose words I cited, and Paul, whose words I cited, are "under Law"?

words are not under law, unless you are an unbeliever, as all unbelievers are under the law.

The born again, are "not under the Law, but under Grace".

You can use all the "smear" tactics (eg, "LEGALISM!") you please, but none of those emotions are going to change Scriptures I quoted.

You are defining yourself as a "work now to get eternal life later, if i dont grow weary in my well doing"... = LEGALIST.

Im just showing the members the real you.

And i'll do it again.
See you there.. later.

 

[GracePeace]

Sowing to the spirit, is more than trying to do good.
Walking in the spirit, is more then trying to do good.

"Sowing to the Spirit" is explicitly defined as "doing good" in the passage.

Jesus said that He gives you eternal life if you Believe.

This has already been addressed--I have no right to dismiss passages of Scripture, so, again, I believe BOTH ideas, not one or the other.

Being born again is the PROOF you have Eternal life, as Jesus who Himself is eternal life, is IN the Born again, and they are IN CHRIST, who Himself is eternal life.

Right, yet not all "abide" (1 Jn 2:28), bc they're led away by idols (1 Jn 5:21).

You say.... ."no, let me show you this verse i dont understand, to try to prove that eternal live comes later, like in '2028, or maybe, '2087, if we dont become weary in well doing.

I didn't say I didn't understand it. I said I understood it very well.
You don't accept it, because it represents a rejection of the misunderstanding you have.

It is for you.
You keep proving it to us.

Paul is sometimes hard to understand, according to Peter, but this is pretty straight forward. It's difficult for you to accept, because it doesn't agree with the misunderstanding you have about Paul.

You are trying to "sound smart" and that is opposite of the reality.
C'mon now.
You can do better.

No, actually, I was saying it's simple, yet you're trying to take it out of the realm of simplicity.

Not at all.
What i do is what any real teacher of the NT does, .. i only teach the verses based on Paul's doctrine.

1. I just cited Paul, and you're uninterested.
2. Women aren't allowed to "teach" men, so are you saying you teach women?

"Pauline Theology".
See, "rightly dividing" is a Paul verse/phrase, and to do this, you have to use Paul's theolog, to open John's verses and Peter's and Jude's, and the rest of the NT.
The NT is a locked box and Paul's Theology is the KEY that opens it.
This is why when you read James for example..., you have to use Paul's doctrine to "eisegesis" James, moreso then some of the others, as James gets a bit Jewish and Lawful, at times..

"Paul's doctrine to 'eisegesis' James"? I don't see that they contradict, because Paul teaches the same as James 2 in Galatians 6 and in Romans 2.

Paul teaches ""Grace through 'faith", as the Gift of God."
Never does he teach.. "eternal life comes later, once you earned it by doing good works".

I literally posted the passage where he does teach exactly that--eternal life is a harvest reaped "in due time" by doers of good. Couldn't be clearer. Same with Romans 2--God will repay doers of good with eternal life in the upcoming judgment.

In fact, in Philippians says that all your self effort to be accepted by God, is "dung".

Philippians contrasts "a righteousness of my own from the Law" versus "righteousness from God through faith in Christ", but do you really think "righteousness from God through faith in Christ" somehow doesn't include good works? Lol So odd.

Eternal Life is a GiFT, just Like Salvation, and Righteousness.

Yep, addressed this objection multiple times. Still waiting for your answer.

So let me show you some Paul, that you haven't read yet.
This for example..

For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE = in Christ Jesus our Lord."

See that Gift?
No you dont....not yet,.

Actually, you need to back up a couple verses to understand what is being said: BECAUSE you are a slave of God, you have the end result of the gift of slavery to God, holiness, and the end result of holiness is eternal life.
Again you don't understand Paul's writings.
The effect of righteousness/slavery to God being a gift is that that gift of righteousness turns eternal life (which is a repayment for righteousness) into a gift.

 

[GracePeace]

words are not under law, unless you are an unbeliever, as all unbelievers are under the law.

The born again, are "not under the Law, but under Grace".




You are defining yourself as a "work now to get eternal life later, if i dont grow weary in my well doing"... = LEGALIST.

Im just showing the members the real you.

And i'll do it again.
See you there.. later.

Nope, I've explained my view several times, and you're either intentionally misrepresenting me, or you're just incapable of understanding me.