SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY
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Keiw
Well-Known Member
God will show the world the opposite of your thoughts. The teachings of Jesus in every translation on earth back the JW teachers. You should learn them Jack and believe them. Pray.
I think He will point out to JW's that Jesus / God is right. Even the JW bible says JW's are WRONG! Is that why you avoid the NWT like plague?
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
No Scripture? Your usual your Kingdom Hall opinions! I will ask again, have you ever read your JW bible that says Jesus is God and Hell fire is "forever and ever"? You don't even know what's in YOUR JW bible!
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Keiw
Well-Known Member
I know Jehovah and Jesus. And the reality of what is taught from literal to symbolic. Only those in light do.
No you don't. YOUR JW bible say they are the exact same Being!
Symbolic, one of JW's fav words when they don't like what God said!
Keiw
Well-Known Member
YHWH said to my Lord(Jesus)--proves your error. Or is your God insane besides being a sadist?
You never talk to yourself? lol
No, My God is Jesus, Who drowned all but 8 and burned Sodom alive "making them an example". Who is your god? You don't even know what the JW bible says. Do you even have a bible?
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Jesus teaches-John 17:3--The one who sent him=Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD. I believe Jesus.
Maybe you don't know the facts about John 1:1 in the Greek lexicons? The true God called-Ton Theon=God, the word called Theon=god. The only other place that occurs in the NT = 2 Cor 4:4-The true God called Ton Theon=God, satan called Theon-god. Translating works the same at both spots. Its why there is a difference shown and Ton Theon=The God and plain Theon=god is used. Theon is the only word in Greek for God or god, thus when both God and god are in the same paragraph the true God got TON preceding Theon to show a difference.
As well Jesus and his real teachers teach that the Father is Jesus' God just like he is our God-John 20:17, Rev 3:12---2Cor 1:3, Eph 1:3, Col 1:3, 1 Pet 1:3
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Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
Gotcha.. It’s always an interesting topic of discussion, and yes I am familiar with the Greek..
Allow me to point out a few things..
John 20:28
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord (Kurios] and my God (Theos]. KJV The use of both the word "Lord," and "God" in the above Scripture describing Jesus Christ is significant.
And in the Greek manuscripts both words ("Lord" and "God") have the definite article.
Below is the Strong's definitions for both the definite article and the word "Lord" and the
word "God." [the definite article]: Greek word #3588 ho (hol; including the feminine he (hayl; and the neuter to (tol; in all their inflections; the def. [definite] article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in
English idiom]: KJV - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc. Lord: Greek word #2962 kurios (koo-ree-os); from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as
noun) controller; by implication, Mr. (as a respectful title): KJV - God, Lord, master, Sir. God: Greek word #2316 theos (theh'-os); of uncertain affinitys a deity, especially (with NT:3588 [the
definite article]) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very KJV - exceeding,
God, god [-ly, -ward]
Notice…
The use of both the word "Lord," and "God" in the above Scripture describing Jesus Christ is significant, for they are two entirely different words having two different meanings. Here, in this Scripture (Jn 20:28), the English word "Lord" is Kúriós (Master, Controller, Lord), and the word "God" is Theós (God, the One Lord God). While Kúriós is "supreme inDivinity," Theós is "The Supreme Divinity," there is a great difference. To be Theós is (in this verse) more than to be Kúriós, for Kúriós (Lord) can be Theós (God), and Kúriós is sometimes translated (God) in the Bible; however, Theós(God) is never translated to (Lord) in the Bible.
But Jesus is called both Kúriós and Theós in the Scriptures, and He is called both.
And we must also consider the fact Jesus said He was God…
While it is somewhat obscured in our English translations, the Jews knew full well that Jesus claimed to be God in the flesh (for Jesus spoke to everyone in their native tongue, therefore when Jesus told them in Hebrew that He was the "I AM," what He was saying was 'EHaYEH , or the title fully stated 'EhaYEH aSHER 'EYaYEH which means: I AM THAT I AM, or I will be what I want to be –— I exist (by self), self existent, God Almighty, created by none, but simply became –— was –— is. To this day, Jews will not pronounce 'EHaYEH , for they reason that for a Hebrew in the Hebrew tongue, to say the name 'EHaYEH, is itself calling oneself God.
The verification of this is seen in..
John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
The point is that with this single utterance Jesus had at once claimed that He was God Almighty. For this the Jews sought to kill Him because had it not been true (but it was) then it would have been blasphemy punishable by death for a man to make the claim. So in that the Jews could have meant 'well.' BUT, Jesus was God, so it was not blasphemy for Jesus to say it. But the Jews did not believe that Jesus was the Immanuel - God with us (Isa 7:14) that the prophets of old had foretold of. But they should have, for he fulfilled over 300 Old Testament prophesies!
Nice to meet ya..
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
So let’s be clear… you said…
So the only time Theon/Theos is used in the NT is in John 1:1 and 2 Corinthians 4
If you look at John 20:28 you will see the word theos used in that scripture.
| John 20:28 ► |
| Text Analysis Go to Parallel Greek
|
Gabriel _Arch
Well-Known Member
We are saved by the grace of God whose free irrevocable gifts are faith and salvation.
The falsity is when anyone attempts to claim it is conditional. That's a lie because God never said that.
The good we do as the Saved is because we are Saved. They are not earners points aplied so that we keep God's FREE irrevocable gifts.
Who pays someone for the gift they were given?
No one. Otherwise it isn't a gift. God is no different.
We don't work to stay saved. That would be ridiculous.
The falsity is when anyone attempts to claim it is conditional. That's a lie because God never said that.
The good we do as the Saved is because we are Saved. They are not earners points aplied so that we keep God's FREE irrevocable gifts.
Who pays someone for the gift they were given?
No one. Otherwise it isn't a gift. God is no different.
We don't work to stay saved. That would be ridiculous.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Hebrew scholars say there is no -i am that i am in their Hebrew written OT--I will be what i will be is correct. I am put into altered trinity translations to mislead.
Jesus NEVER claimed to be God. He answered the pharisees question-he lived before Abraham.
Your words above that are trinity words-they are false. Greek scholars translated the nt-over 20 translations had-a god, 3 had was divine, 1 had was godlike. All rejected by trinity religions because that one fact proves them all to be false religions. As does Gods view of a cult= A house divided will not stand= 100,s of trinity based religions.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
No in the same paragraph when one is called God and one is called god. 2places in NT-John 1:1-2 Cor 4:4--Otherwise when God is spoken of alone in a paragraph-Theon is used in many spots because one knows its speaking of God. But when both usages are in the same paragraph-Ton preceded Theon for the true God.
Do you have a Bible? Doesn't sound like it. You should have avoided Kingdom Hall like the plague it is.
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
1 John
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1st John 5:7 (Illustrated above) is the single most powerful witness of the Trinity (God, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit). the Corrupt Manuscripts (Sinaiticus,Vaticanus) used in the newer Bible versions omit the key words.
They simply omitted the key words supporting the Holy Trinity! The newer versions say it doesn't belong, but it is the single most powerful witness of the Trinity. But do these powerful and key words belong in the text? You bet they do, let's look at some authorities for those key words:
Perhaps one of the most telling proofs that the verse was included in the original manuscripts is evidenced by the writings of one of the early Church Fathers - Cyprian, who in his writing: "Treatises" found in The Ante-Nicene Christian Library (5:423): included a quote from 1st John 5:7. In the verse quote from Cyprian he writes: "...and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy spirit, 'And these three are one' "
Cyprian died in A.D. 258, some one-hundred years before the compilation of the corrupt Sinaiticus and Vaticanus manuscripts from which all the newer Bible versions are based upon. And his (Cyprian's) quote of 1st John 5:7 supports the King James Bible version's inclusion of the key words and opposes the newer Bible versions in their omission of them!
Four of the strongest and most point-blank references to the Holy Trinity (Triune Godhead) in the New Testament are omitted in the newer Bible versions: The one we have just studied in depth and the below three. Look what they have done to them, it would seem from the newer Bible versions that there is no longer a Holy Trinity - God forbid! They have changed the Holy Trinity into some generic 'force'
- The SYRIAC Version: The Syriac version of the New testament Scriptures is the oldest in its various forms: the "Peshitto" (2nd century), and the "Curetonian Syriac" (3rd century). Both are older than any Greek Manuscript in existence, and both contain these twelve verses. So with the "Philoxenian" (5thcentury) and the "Jerusalem" (5th century).
- The LATIN Versions: Jerome (A. D. 382), who had access to Greek Manuscripts older than any now extant, includes these twelve verses; but this Version (known as the Vulgate) was only a revision of the VETUS ITALA, which is believed to belong to the 2nd century, and contains these verses.
- The GOTHIC Version: (A. D. 350) contains them.
- The EGYPTIAN Versions: the 'Memphitic' (or Lower Egyptian, less properly called "Coptic"), belonging to 4th or 5th century, contains them; as does the'Thebaic' (or Upper Egyptian, less properly called the "Sahidic"), belonging to 3rd century.
- The ARMENIAN: (5th century), The ETHIOPIC: (4th - 7th century), and The GEORGIAN: (6th century) also bear witness to the genuineness of these verses.
There are nearly a hundred ecclesiastical writers older than the oldest of our Greek codices; while between A. D. 300 and A. D. 600 there are about two hundred more, and they all refer to these twelve verses.
- PAPIAS: (about A. D. 100) refers to v. 18 (as stated by Eusebius, Hist. Ecc 3, 39).
- JUSTIN MARTYR: (A.D. 151) quotes v. 20 (Apol. I. c. 45).
- IRENAEUS: (A. D. 180) quotes and remarks on v. 19 (Adv. Hoer. lib. iii. c. x.).
- HIPPOLYTUS: (A. D. 190 - 227) quotes vv. 17-19 (Lagarde's ed., 1858, p. 74).
- VINCENTIUS: (A.D. 256) quoted two verses at the seventh Council of Carthage, held under Cyprian.
- The ACTA PILATI: (2nd century) quotes vv. 15, 16, 17, 18 (Tischendorf's ed., 1853, pp. 243, 351).
- The APOSTOLICAL CONSTITUTIONS: (3rd or 4th centuries) quotes vv. 16, 17, 18.
- EUSEBIUS: (A.D. 325) discusses these verses, as quoted by Marinus from a lost part of his History.
- APHRAARTES: (A.D. 337), a Syrian bishop, quoted vv. 16 -18 in his first Homily (Dr. Wright's ed., 1869, i., p. 21).
- AMBROSE: (A. D. 374 - 97), Archbishop of Milan, freely quotes vv.15 (four times), 16, 17, 18 (three times), and v.20 (once).
- CHRYSOSTOM: (A. D. 400) refers to v. 9; and states that vv. 19, 20 are "the end of the Gospel".
- JEROME: (born 331, died 420) includes these twelve verses in his Latin translation; besides quoting vv. 9 and 14 in his other writings.
- AUGUSTINE: (Fl. A.D. 395 - 430) more than quotes them. He discusses them as being the work of the Evangelist MARK, and says that they were publicly read in the churches.
- NESTORIUS: (5th century) quotes V. 20, and:
- CYRIL of ALEXANDRIA: (A.D. 430) accepts the quotation.
- VICTOR of ANTIOCH: (A.D. 425) confutes the opinion of Eusebius, by referring to very many Manuscripts which he had seen, and so had satisfied himself that the last twelve verses were recorded in them.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Keiw
Well-Known Member
The JW,s were allowed into the Catholic archives, late 60,s or early 70,s. They came out with proof, the 3 witness bearers were the spirit, water and blood. They weren't allowed back in after that. Many translations corrected that error.
Catholicism = 2 Thess 2:3--the great apostasy-they translated errors in to fit false council teachings and removed Gods name where God willed it because he wants it there, over 7000 spots. They did by satans will.
100% fact-Every religion claiming to be christian on earth that uses the altered translations are false religions, giving support to satans will over Gods will. They know Gods name was removed. With that name( YHWH(Jehovah) back in, it exposes those religions, they cant have that.
Godslittleservant
Active Member
It shows I have no dealings with the JW cause I can not understand anything Keiw is talking about makes no sense to me therefore no replies but this and further more what has it to do with the title of this thread?
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