"Salvation" is the gift of Eternal Life - it's FOREVER.

[Christ4Me]

Fallen away means GONE.

Then explain this faithful saying below.

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Former believers may deny Him for why He will deny them at the rapture, but even if they believe not any more, He is faithful because He still abides.

 

[Christ4Me]

Precious friend, "left behind, but still saved" at the rapture of The Body Of Christ?

This would mean that "only the members with good works" would be "Judged At
The Bema Seat," The Body Would be Incomplete, and not "ready for presenting
To The Father."

I believe The Bema Seat Judgment IS For All "members" or else this passage
makes no sense:

"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive
his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God:
ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. According To The GRACE Of God Which
Is Given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid The Foundation, and another
buildeth Thereon.

But let every man take heed how he buildeth Thereupon. For other foundation can
no man lay than That Is Laid, Who Is JESUS CHRIST {The Righteous JUDGE!}.
Now if any man build upon This Foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood,
hay, stubble;

Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for The [ Judgment ] Day Shall Declare
it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what
sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man’s work Shall Be Burned, he Shall Suffer Loss: but he himself SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire!” (1 Corinthians 3:8-15)

Thus, for ALL "members" in the Complete Body Of Christ, "the risk of going astray
from our labouring With God" is not "being left behind," but Is "Suffering Loss,
though saved," At Judgment! Correct?

-----------------------------
Precious friend:
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!

2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 3:9 = Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans - Philemon}, For ALL “to SEE,” today,?

But that is not the full message on how God will judge in that day 1 Corinthians 10:13 on those that have defiled that temple of God.

1 Corinthians 10:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is......15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit per 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 and so that means physical death as the wages of sin is death.

Jesus warned the church at Thyatira to repent or else be cast into the bed of the great tribulation to have their works judged with death. Revelation 2:18-25

This does not mean they lost their salvation, but missed out on the firstfruits of the resurrection to be accepted by Him as vessels unto honor. 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 & 2 Timothy 2:18-21 Those who did not depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes, will be disqualified and thus "damned" as vessels unto dishonor in His House but still in His House as vessels of wood & earth thus still saved.

If you consider the parable of the ten virgins in how they are likened unto the kingdom of heaven in Matthew 25:1-13, five were foolish being out to the market seeking to be filled for why they were not ready for the Bridegroom when He came and thus shut out from the wedding reception held in that kingdom of heaven but what is overlooked is how those five foolish ones that were shut out, are still in that kingdom of heaven.

That is why Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else be left behind in that day when fire comes on the earth in Luke 12:40-49 & Luke 17:26-30 & 2 Peter 3:3-18 & Revelation 8:7-13 as one third of the earth ( the Western Hemisphere ) will be burned up, setting the stage for the rest of the world for the New World Order and the mark of the beast system.

That is why Jesus is warning believers now about how the cares of this life can be a snare for why we should pray for His help to escape what is coming on the earth now. Luke 21:33-36 & Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 13:24-30

 

[ScottA]

Both you and @ScottA need to read Luke 15:24

Do you suppose you know this parable and its teaching better than Jesus did?
Here's what Jesus stated:

For this son of mine was dead, and has come to life AGAIN, he was lost, and has been found.

Do we all know what AGAIN means?
Something is happening now...that was already happening even before.

What you are not taking into account, is it does not say that the son came to the Son and is now alive again, but to the father...mean that he was not saved as many wrongly define being saved, not as believing, but as coming to the Father, which is at the end.

 

[BarneyFife]

You do know you can click on scriptural references to see it in this forum's use of the ESV? Anyway, here it is in the KJV. KJV & ESV has same message.

Matthew 12:1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. KJV

Matthew 12:1-7 has the Pharisees seeking to condemn His disciples for picking ears of corn on the sabbath and thus profaning the sabbath day. Jesus pointed out 2 incidences where O.T. saints had profaned the sabbath but were guiltless because they were in the temple. Then He directed their attention to the present on how One greater than the Temple was here for why His disciples were guiltless for profaning the sabbath, mainly Himself.

Wow! You restrained yourself. Thanks.

Well, strangely enough this isn't the first time I've encountered this argument. I fact, I knew you would, at least, mention this one when I noticed your use of the word "profane."

The solution is simple. Is Jesus saying that the Sabbath is perfectly and universally profanable because David and the priests did it? Is He saying it can be broken because He is Lord of it and He says so?

Or is He simply (in another way) saying that you can rescue your ox or heal someone on the Sabbath?
When He said you could rescue your ox or heal someone, did He mean that the Sabbath had been abrogated?
Or did he mean that it was lawful (not sinful) to do good on the Sabbath?

Let me know if this isn't clear enough (I have that problem sometimes).

 

[BarneyFife]

So saved believers can go astray religious wise if they judge others for not observing the sabbath day,

I've always found it interesting that when someone warns someone about the dangers of lying, stealing, killing, fornicating, etc., Christians call it just that--a warning.

But when it comes to the fourth commandment--it's definitely judging.

 

[Cooper]

You can't "fall away" from being born.You can only "fall away" from a belief system, into another one. Let me show you how simple this is to understand. One day, some years ago, CHUCK< was born.
His mother's water broke, and CHUCK was "Born of water", right there in the Hospital,... out he came, right out of that WATER SACK....>He was BORN of WATER.

CHUCK grew up, and decided one day that He was not going to be born anymore, as CHUCK no longer Believed he were born, and so CHUCK decided to "fall away from being born".... willfully.

The Shrinks, were called in, because they recognized that CHUCK, was not in their right mind.
CHUCK said to them.....'im not here, because im no longer born, i have fallen away from birth,.. you can't see me". "I dont need that needle"..."im invisible, no longer born".

Another time, during another "episode"... CHUCK decided that they were not born again., and they would fall away to prove it.
God just smiled, as He always smiles at theological foolishness that is performed in public, on a Forum, right until He stops smiling and inserts Hebrews 12:6 so that they learn to stop harming real believers.

Nonsense.

 

[Cooper]

Don't you think God can foresaw some one like that to not save them at all? They would never had believed in Him. but they did. You have to discern why there are vessels unto dishonor in His House that did not depart from iniquity because the vessels unto honor in His House are designated as having departed from iniquity. Read this: 2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

#1 Why did Paul give an example of how a believer ceased to be a believer because of a heresy, but "nevertheless" that foundation standeth sure having that seal means?

#2. Is not Paul signifying that a former believer is still saved for why they are still called to depart from iniquity so they can be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House?

#3. Are those who depart from iniquity shall be vessels unto honor in His House?

#4. Are those who do not depart from iniquity are the vessels unto dishonor that are in His House?

#5. What does it mean that the vessels of wood & earth that are in His House yet they are the ones that did not depart from iniquity?

#6. What would be the point to have those that did not depart from iniquity for why there are vessels unto dishonor in His House?

#7. Are the vessels of dishonor to display the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Jesus Christ, even in His name for why they are in His House?

That is why I believe you are not applying Hebrews 6:1-8 rightly because 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 is saying the same thing as they are still saved

Edited note; ESV in verse 17 has man destroying the temple of God but the KJV has man defiling the temple of God by what he built on that foundation for why God is destroying the temple of God. ESV has man & God destroying the temple of God; wrong message.

More nonsense.

 

[ScottA]

That he was saved and not saved? Where?

I quoted him already. You can look it up if you want. He said he had yet attained, but also indicated that he was among those who are alive (in the Spirit)and remain.

 

[Taken]

I was under conviction at ten too perhaps. I was always sensitive to the Spirit, even while rejecting him throughout my teens.
Hearts desire can mean a lot of things. My perception is that God showed me how empty life was without him, so I chose to confess and repent of my sins. He's been more faithful than I have but I never let go.

Before you were saved, were you calling yourself a Christian?

 

[GodsGrace]

If you want to discount the cross and all that Jesus did, that is your business. But that is what is erroneous, for He is the Author and Finisher: It is finished. He said so...and you have said nothing but speak against Him.

Scott
I had asked you what Jesus meant by
IT IS FINISHED.
I don't believe you ever replied.
What does this mean to you?

 

[GodsGrace]

What you are not taking into account, is it does not say that the son came to the Son and is now alive again, but to the father...mean that he was not saved as many wrongly define being saved, not as believing, but as coming to the Father, which is at the end.

Doesn't the father represent God and how He loves and waits for us, His creatures, to go to Him with love at any time and more than one time?

Again, we distort scripture when our doctrine is not in keeping with the full picture.

 

[Taken]

I meant that it would have been impossible for Peter to have walked with Jesus (in the manner in which he did) for 3 years without having a conversion experience during that 3 year period, and not after Christ's ascension.

Review the Scriptures of disciples behavior, from the beginning of first interacting with Jesus to the end of the 3 years.
...
For any person there is always (regardless of the topic)...
A learning “about” phase, ( believing, doubting, wondering )... ie.the student.
...some students, continue (hearing, listening)
...some students, cheat (claim another’s works, as their own)
...some students, get puffed up (little knowledge, as if sufficient)
...some students, are impatient, (want understanding Before knowledge)
...some students, quit, (want benefits, before their own effort)
Point being...they are still students.

The BIG PICTURE...from the beginning of mankind to the end of every single natural born man IS:
* The INVISIBLE Lord God Almighty, having neither Beginning or Ending: Creates and Makes....Believe it or not.
* All The Who, What, When, Why, Where, How....was given mankind:
To freely....Believe it or not.
* Gods DESIRE has Never changed: That every single natural born man;
Would freely....DESIRE to be...... WITH God FOREVER

Absolutely agree! (except for the part in parentheses and the OSAS bit).

You have concluded...a man “COULD” freely desire to be forever WITH God....
And God did not give mankind the knowledge of HOW that “COULD” be accomplished?

I know this topic has been beaten like a dead horse on this forum

I think there are numerous pages on the topic, without much substance, rather mostly, I believe this, I don’t....

the Bible just doesn't teach that God binds people in their relationships with Him and revokes their free will.

Is ^ that your primary basis for OSAS rejection?
Specifically, What do you mean “revokes their free will” ?
TO change their mind and reject His Gift? Something else?

 

[Taken]

Scott
I had asked you what Jesus meant by
IT IS FINISHED.
I don't believe you ever replied.
What does this mean to you?

Scripture tells you.
What He came TO DO, He accomplish-ED.

John 19:
[28] After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture tells you.
What He came TO DO, He accomplish-ED.

John 19:
[28] After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Thanks taken,
But I'd like an answer from @ScottA.

 

[Christ4Me]

Wow! You restrained yourself. Thanks.

Well, strangely enough this isn't the first time I've encountered this argument. I fact, I knew you would, at least, mention this one when I noticed your use of the word "profane."

The solution is simple. Is Jesus saying that the Sabbath is perfectly and universally profanable because David and the priests did it? Is He saying it can be broken because He is Lord of it and He says so?

Or is He simply (in another way) saying that you can rescue your ox or heal someone on the Sabbath?
When He said you could rescue your ox or heal someone, did He mean that the Sabbath had been abrogated?
Or did he mean that it was lawful (not sinful) to do good on the Sabbath?

Let me know if this isn't clear enough (I have that problem sometimes).

I believe Jesus is saying why His disciples were guiltless for profaning the sabbath because He is with them for why they are guiltless since obviously, they were not in the Temple.

It was the O.T. saints being in the Temple when profaning the sabbath for why they were guiltless.

So it was His disciples being with Jesus is why they were guiltless for profaning the sabbath.

 

[Christ4Me]

@Hidden In Him @Nancy @Mayflower @Renniks @GodsGrace @Taken @ScottA

I've always found it interesting that when someone warns someone about the dangers of lying, stealing, killing, fornicating, etc., Christians call it just that--a warning.

But when it comes to the fourth commandment--it's definitely judging.

Judging can be seen as condemning someone or as correcting someone, but they can't be both when used.

Sometimes sabbath day keepers are condemning Christians for not keeping the sabbath as if by not keeping it, they are not saved.

So correcting someone about the consequences of being left behind for not abiding in Him, is not meaning those left behind are not saved when they are saved, and thus His, but just missed out on the firstfruits of the resurrection to attend the marriage Supper in Heaven.

Take the parable of the ten virgins that are likened unto the kingdom of heaven, meaning they are of the kingdom of heaven Matthew 25:1-13. But five were foolish for not being ready for the Bridegroom and that reception for why they were out to the market seeking to be filled with oil. although too late to be ready to go, and shut out from that reception, they were still part of that kingdom of heaven.

Not saying you were doing that, but Sabbath Day Keepers that do judge ( condemning ) other Christians as not saved or not Christians, should consider Matthew 5:19 on how those who break the least of His commandments and teaches others so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. So from their point of view, breaking the observance of the sabbath day and teaching others so reproves them for condemning others in that way, but from their point of view, it is okay to correct.

As it is, all Sabbath Day Keepers should discern the truth in His words in Matthew 12:1-7 with His help for how He defended His disciples for profaning the sabbath day and that was because He was with them for why they were guiltless.

That is how OSAS is true in regards to that issue and why it is true for those left behind because salvation is a free gift of eternal life for all those that believe in Him, even in His name per John 1:12-13 in referring back to the OP

 

[ScottA]

Doesn't the father represent God and how He loves and waits for us, His creatures, to go to Him with love at any time and more than one time?

Again, we distort scripture when our doctrine is not in keeping with the full picture.

Well...yes, but if you do see God as the Father (and I do), then you should also include that He is spirit and we must be born again, just as Jesus said.

 

[Taken]

Believers........CAN believe, then fall away.

Believers........CAN continue believing (ie. Endure), to the end of their life.
^ Saved at PHYSICAL death...(forever)

Sav-ED Believers....can NEVER fall away.
^ Saved at SPIRITUAL death...(forever)

Once SAVED....at physical death...it is Always Saved.
Once SAVED....at spiritual death...it is Always Saved.

Matt:
[20] ... I am with you alway...

 

[Cassandra]

As it is, all Sabbath Day Keepers should discern the truth in His words in Matthew 12:1-7 with His help for how He defended His disciples for profaning the sabbath day and that was because He was with them for why they were guiltless.

I don't discern it. I don't see that.
It was the Pharisees that were condemning the disciples. There is no mention of the Pharisees in the OT. They were intertestament.
They added burdens to laws. Note the Corban issue.

Mark 7:1–13 ESV - Now when the Pharisees… | Biblia

And where has Barney judged anyone? I keep the Sabbath too, and I haven't done it (judged anyone on Sabbathkeeping), either. But we have to be able to give reason for our beliefs if someone asks





Just like OSAS. Everyone here is welcome to argue belief, but it doesn't mean we have to accept it. I sure don't. But have at it.

 

[GodsGrace]

According to hebrews. No

They can not be renewed to repentance. For they crucify for themselves the son of God.

Hebrews 6?

So there's a conflict in the bible?
A conflict between what Jesus said
and what Paul (or whoever wrote Hebrews) said?

I didn't think there were conflicting statements in the bible.
Maybe Hebrews 6 is referring to something totally different than what this thread is about?
I do believe so.