"Salvation" is the gift of Eternal Life - it's FOREVER.

[BarneyFife]

I believe Jesus is saying why His disciples were guiltless for profaning the sabbath because He is with them for why they are guiltless since obviously, they were not in the Temple.

It was the O.T. saints being in the Temple when profaning the sabbath for why they were guiltless.

So it was His disciples being with Jesus is why they were guiltless for profaning the sabbath.

It just occurred to me that the Sabbath is kept just as many keep Christmas: Eve(ning) and morning.
Hallelujah--PRAISE GOD!!!

Proverbs 4:18 The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining brighter and brighter until midday.

 

[BarneyFife]

Ok, gotcha. Going to a Christian church because your parents did, but not considering yourself a Christian.

When you sit in your Christian church now, do you think every one sitting in that Church is a Christian?

How could anyone like this? Are you particularly fond of conducting inquisitions like this or are you just bored?

 

[Christ4Me]

What you do not see is that they didn't profane the sabbath. That was the Pharisees adding more and more to Sabbath commands.

@BarnyFife

Let's see the difference between what the Lord commands, to see if the Pharisees were adding to it or misapplying it.

Exodus 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the Lord: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. 28 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? 29 See, for that the Lord hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

I'd say the Pharisees were misapplying His commandments for why Jesus was saying to have mercy.

But you have to explain why He bothered to give 2 examples in the O.T. for why He said His disciples were guiltless for profaning the sabbath when one of the two examples, it was not about the priests being hungry in Matthew 12:5

You have to discern with Him why He was defending His disciples and how He was defending His disciples by those 2 O.T. examples because in one of the example, the priests were not hungry nor desperate, but they had profaned the sabbath in the Temple, but were guiltless for being in the Temple.

Then Jesus said One greater than the Temple was here and that was in defense of His disciples for why they were guiltless.

 

[BarneyFife]

You can't "fall away" from being born.

You can only "fall away" from a belief system, into another one.


Let me show you how simple this is to understand.

One day, some years ago, CHUCK< was born.
His mother's water broke, and CHUCK was "Born of water", right there in the Hospital,... out he came, right out of that WATER SACK....>He was BORN of WATER.

CHUCK grew up, and decided one day that He was not going to be born anymore, as CHUCK no longer Believed he were born, and so CHUCK decided to "fall away from being born".... willfully.

The Shrinks, were called in, because they recognized that CHUCK, was not in their right mind.
CHUCK said to them.....'im not here, because im no longer born, i have fallen away from birth,.. you can't see me". "I dont need that needle"..."im invisible, no longer born".

Another time, during another "episode"... CHUCK decided that they were not born again., and they would fall away to prove it.
God just smiled, as He always smiles at theological foolishness that is performed in public, on a Forum, right until He stops smiling and inserts Hebrews 12:6 so that they learn to stop harming real believers.

What a wonderful yarn! You should submit it to Readers Digest.

 

[Christ4Me]

It just occurred to me that the Sabbath is kept just as many keep Christmas: Eve(ning) and morning.
Hallelujah--PRAISE GOD!!!

Proverbs 4:18 The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining brighter and brighter until midday.

Explain how the Sabbath is kept? Or better yet, explain how it is not kept?

 

[BarneyFife]

You do know you can click on scriptural references to see it in this forum's use of the ESV?

Yes. You can actually just mouse-over to display them, as well (I've been her too long - lol). I just missed your citation. Sorry.

 

[BarneyFife]

@BarnyFife

Let's see the difference between what the Lord commands, to see if the Pharisees were adding to it or misapplying it.

Exodus 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the Lord: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. 28 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? 29 See, for that the Lord hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

I'd say the Pharisees were misapplying His commandments for why Jesus was saying to have mercy.

But you have to explain why He bothered to give 2 examples in the O.T. for why He said His disciples were guiltless for profaning the sabbath when one of the two examples, it was not about the priests being hungry in Matthew 12:5

You have to discern with Him why He was defending His disciples and how He was defending His disciples by those 2 O.T. examples because in one of the example, the priests were not hungry nor desperate, but they had profaned the sabbath in the Temple, but were guiltless for being in the Temple.

Then Jesus said One greater than the Temple was here and that was in defense of His disciples for why they were guiltless.

No, thank you. I prefer a plain reading of Scripture unless otherwise indicated. I'm funny that way. It's simple. God put it in the middle of His moral code for human beings. Even wrote it with His own finger, quite likely before any Scripture even existed. I get it. He wants us to take Saturday off. I'm not gonna mess with Him. He's a lot bigger and badder than me. This stuff isn't rocket science. I don't mean to be insulting, but your presentation seems to be heading in that direction.

Exodus 20:8 NLT: “Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
Exodus 20:9 NLT: You have six days each week for your ordinary work,
Exodus 20:10 NLT: but the seventh day is a Sabbath day of rest dedicated to the LORD your God. On that day no one in your household may do any work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your livestock, and any foreigners living among you.
Exodus 20:11 NLT: For in six days the LORD made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

Isaiah 58:13 NIV: "If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
Isaiah 58:14 NIV: then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob." The mouth of the LORD has spoken.

I think I'd like to stop participating in derailing this thread now.

 

[Taken]

How could anyone like this? Are you particularly fond of conducting inquisitions like this or are you just bored?

Why is asking questions bothersome to you?
The typical debates on this forum is Because people speak in ‘general terms’, as if everyone else applies the same meaning to those terms.

 

[Taken]

No.

Thank you. I agree.

Do you believe there is a difference between one who believes and one who is converted ?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Why is asking questions bothersome to you?
The typical debates on this forum is Because people speak in ‘general terms’, as if everyone else applies the same meaning to those terms.

Precious friend, I like this analogy of belief:

At the airport, you look at the airplane, and, intellectually, you BELIEVE that it
"will Get you to your destination." But, Until you BELIEVE "with your heart,"
and Actually get on board, and TRUST "your life into the pilot's hands" only
THEN "will you reach your destination." Correct?

ALL Aboard The Way (JESUS) To Heaven!

See you in God’s Great GloryLand! ♫ ↑

 

[Taken]

Jesus will never reject anyone that goes to Him.
John 6:37

Scripture Has CAVEATS....
The Scriptures are full OF “IF”S....<—— caveats.

Will Jesus EVER reject ANYONE that goes to Him? YES....”IF”.

“IF” a man LIES to the HS.
“IF” a man comes to a door that is already closed.
(There is a time limit, on receiving Jesus’ Salvation)
“IF” a man Has taken the Mark of the Beast.

Scripture Harmonizes.

 

[Renniks]

Thank you. I agree.

Do you believe there is a difference between one who believes and one who is converted ?

No. Conversion follows true belief. You cannot sincerely believe and trust in Jesus and not be saved.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hebrews 6?

So there's a conflict in the bible?
A conflict between what Jesus said
and what Paul (or whoever wrote Hebrews) said?

I didn't think there were conflicting statements in the bible.
Maybe Hebrews 6 is referring to something totally different than what this thread is about?
I do believe so.

There is no conflict in the word. Unless I interpret it as you want me too


Heb 6 is speaking of salvation.

Maybe you do not want it to? I am not sure, but it does.

Repentance is an act of salvation

Unable to be renewed to repentance is unable to come to the point where you repent from whatever it is you believe in and return to Christ.

If they fall away is in regards to savation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Pretty soon I'll be leaving this thread.
You can believe what you will EG.
But you and others are way off what mainline Christianity teaches.

Mainline christianity has been wrong since the 300’s BC

You're very very far from what the Apostles taught.
But I guess you know more than they did.

I know more than they did?

No, I know what they teach and I hold to what they teach, not some legalistic church that left its roots and turned to self righteousness

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There are no contradictions in the N.T. (or the bible).
If we find one, it is usually explainable just by taking the entire message of the N.T. into consideration and properly understanding the words of Jesus and the teachings of the Apostles.

The contradiction I was referring to with the other poster (@Eternally Grateful I believe) is this:
I stated that God will take anyone back after falling away and cited Jesus saying that He would in no way cast anyone out that came to Him.
John 6:37

The other poster said it is impossible to renew a person again.
Hebrews 6:6

How is the conflict resolved? Easily, by understanding Hebrews 6.
It was written to Jews that had left their religion to belong to a new religion which was that of following Jesus and being saved by grace...by faith.
Many understood this and many did not because they had been taught that they needed to be "religious" and to be saved by doing works.
Jesus said that the pharisees were blind and were leading many to damnation.

Hebrews 6 is for the Jew that began to doubt the salvation by faith and grace and were thinking of returning to the Law in order to be saved.
This would be an open admission to all that perhaps Jesus' sacrifice was null and of no use, and that maybe the Law was better than grace.

This is not meant for a Christian that has backslidden or left the faith for some reason and wishes to come back.

All we need do is think of David, Moses. They sinned against God but both are saved.
We'd have to include Peter - some believe he became fallen when denying that he knew Jesus.
Personally, I don't think Peter was fallen but just scared.


Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.
Fulfill means to complete...it does NOT mean that HE fulfilled it so now we don't have to follow it.
This is what some Christians state...maybe those that don't care to change their life.

Jesus abolished the Civil Law, the Ceremonial Law, basically because it cannot be kept even culturally in most parts of the world.
But He did not abolish the Moral Law --- the moral Law is still in effect.

What Jesus did was send the Holy Spirit and He has given us the ABILITY to "maintain" the moral law....not that we can 100%.
This is the idea of the New Covenant. What has changed is this ability through the Holy Spirit who once did not dwell within us, but was exterior to us. Jeremiah 31:33

So maybe God wants someone to sell all...then that person would be able to do this with his heart.
If not, it is not required.
Everything refers to the matter of the heart.

And, yes, works are necessary for continued salvation.
It cannot be more clear, there are verses galore...I sometimes wonder why I even need to post any.

As to the Apostles...yes, they taught.
Then those they taught did the same to others.
We have these writings and can check what was taught by the Apostles.
I do this many times when there is a question about something.
The Apostles and those they taught did NOT believe in OSAS and they DID believe in good works.

The sad part is, there really is no different between those jews and you

They both believe you can lose salvation
You both believe salvation can and must be restored

Your name has the word grace in it Sadly you do not understand what that word means

 

[Christ4Me]

No, thank you. I prefer a plain reading of Scripture unless otherwise indicated. I'm funny that way. It's simple. God put it in the middle of His moral code for human beings. Even wrote it with His own finger, quite likely before any Scripture even existed. I get it. He wants us to take Saturday off. I'm not gonna mess with Him. He's a lot bigger and badder than me. This stuff isn't rocket science. I don't mean to be insulting, but your presentation seems to be heading in that direction.

Exodus 20:8 NLT: “Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
Exodus 20:9 NLT: You have six days each week for your ordinary work,
Exodus 20:10 NLT: but the seventh day is a Sabbath day of rest dedicated to the LORD your God. On that day no one in your household may do any work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your livestock, and any foreigners living among you.
Exodus 20:11 NLT: For in six days the LORD made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

Isaiah 58:13 NIV: "If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
Isaiah 58:14 NIV: then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob." The mouth of the LORD has spoken.

I think I'd like to stop participating in derailing this thread now.

@GodsGrace

Is it derailing this thread?

Are you saying that Christians that do not keep the sabbath are not saved? I do not think you are, but I had come across some that say that.

Do you not see the relevance to this topic? You say salvation is a free gift, right? How does sabbath keeping relate to that free gift?

If you come across a sabbath keeper that believes he or she has to keep the sabbath to be saved or to keep their salvation, how is this not relevant to the OP when salvation is a gift of eternal life, it's forever?

Then there is this: Exodus 31:14-15 & Exodus 35:2 where a part of keeping the sabbath day holy is putting to death those who break it.

So while those who claim to keep the sabbath day holy, they all seem to forget the flip side of the coin in keeping that commandment and that is to execute those who are not keeping the sabbath. But we have this from Jesus for why there is no serving God in killing any one; John 16:1-3

Then consider how there are no careful instructions to teach the Gentiles to keep the sabbath day, let alone address the voiding of the half of that commandment by not executing those that do not keep the sabbath. No scripture can be found anywhere in the N.T. to the churches

But we have Matthew 12:1-7 & Romans 14:4-8 & Colossians 2:15-17 for why Christians do not need to regard the day of the sabbath because our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 and Jesus Christ is in us ( 2 Corinthians 13:5 ) & with us always Matthew 28:20 ).

 

[BarneyFife]

@GodsGrace

Is it derailing this thread?

Are you saying that Christians that do not keep the sabbath are not saved? I do not think you are, but I had come across some that say that.

Do you not see the relevance to this topic? You say salvation is a free gift, right? How does sabbath keeping relate to that free gift?

If you come across a sabbath keeper that believes he or she has to keep the sabbath to be saved or to keep their salvation, how is this not relevant to the OP when salvation is a gift of eternal life, it's forever?

Then there is this: Exodus 31:14-15 & Exodus 35:2 where a part of keeping the sabbath day holy is putting to death those who break it.

So while those who claim to keep the sabbath day holy, they all seem to forget the flip side of the coin in keeping that commandment and that is to execute those who are not keeping the sabbath. But we have this from Jesus for why there is no serving God in killing any one; John 16:1-3

Then consider how there are no careful instructions to teach the Gentiles to keep the sabbath day, let alone address the voiding of the half of that commandment by not executing those that do not keep the sabbath. No scripture can be found anywhere in the N.T. to the churches

But we have Matthew 12:1-7 & Romans 14:4-8 & Colossians 2:15-17 for why Christians do not need to regard the day of the sabbath because our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 and Jesus Christ is in us ( 2 Corinthians 13:5 ) & with us always Matthew 28:20 ).

I never, ever question another person's standing with God.

You may amass all of the Scripture quotes you like to try to express the belief that the Sabbath is no longer a requirement enjoined upon men. They have all been sufficiently refuted many thousands of times, and I will no longer address them here, because:

This thread is about the Eternal Security doctrine, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of Sabbath-keeping.

 

[Christ4Me]

I never, ever question another person's standing with God.

That is good. But have you ever come across a sabbath keeper that did, which in turn does involve eternal security in how he judges another?

How would you correct him in regards to this thread about eternal security?

You may amass all of the Scripture quotes you like to try to express the belief that the Sabbath is no longer a requirement enjoined upon men. They have all been sufficiently refuted many thousands of times, and I will no longer address them here, because:

This thread is about the Eternal Security doctrine, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of Sabbath-keeping.

Can we apply this issue to this web site for saying this? What does the Sabbath have to do with salvation?

"The Bible teaches that those who receive the gift of Christ's character will observe His Sabbath as a sign or seal of their spiritual experience. Thus the people who receive the last-day seal of God will be Sabbath-keepers."

I know you are for eternal security which is why I am wondering how you would correct a Sabbath Keeper of this affiliation? It would be interesting to see how the Lord would use you in correcting certain teachings at that site to where you stand in your beliefs for eternal security for all believers here.

Thank you for sharing this far, but I hope by now you may see why the side topic of sabbath keeping can relate to eternal security in a fashion.

 

[ScottA]

That's not what you said. You said saved but not saved. He is saying he's not perfect and hasn't been resurrected yet but is saved. None of us have attained being like Christ perfectly. That doesn't mean we are saved but not saved.

10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it.

No, you are not defining salvation correctly, but trying to fit your definition into the most complex example of salvation in all of history.

That is called confusion.

If you were to pick an Old Testament example or a New Testament example, each of those is enough to understand, and many do not. But, Paul's salvation is most [more] difficult. He lived during the greatest biblical transition of all time, and stated the terms of his own salvation, not like those of the OT era, nor like those of the NT era-- but literally like both, saying that he was "all things to all people." He was appointed by Jesus to be the one man on the cusp..."having one foot on the land and one foot on the sea." ..You have read of it, but have not understood.

This is the reason we all struggle to agree. One picks up on the terms of those who died in Christ (the dead in Christ), and another picks up on the terms of the living in Christ (the born again)..and we fight like brothers, mixing up the two different sets of terms, each pitting one scripture against another, as if any of it is wrong. But it is not--people are.

The question is...are you ready to stop mixing things up, and ready for all truth rightly divided?

 

[ScottA]

Can't remember if I answered this Scott.
But no matter...
I dislike debating something forever.
If the word that Jesus speaks...AGAIN...means nothing to you,
then so be it.

Just some comments:

The son left in good standing with the father.
The custom was to give the older son 2/3 of the inheritance...which the father did and which was the money the son spent.
So the son leaves and squanders the money and is left penniless and hungry.
The son finally came to his senses...which means he had a nice life with his father before he left.
We can understand this to mean he was saved....analogically speaking.
The son returns home.
The father is waiting for him and welcomes him BACK.
The son believes he is not even worthy of being called a son anymore.
The father states that the son was lost but has come back to life AGAIN.
Luke 15:24

You are reading too much into the parable, and not enough. It's all conjecture, not the truth of the Spirit.

If you like it that way, as you say, so be it. Your terms.