Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Secondhand Lion]

The bible does not put obedient works AFTER salvation but before, consider the order of Acts 2:38 or Mk 16:16 that put obedience BEFORE salvation.

Paul in Rom 6:16 said you serve either one of two masters, you either serve:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteosness


I serve obedience unto righteousness. Which do you serve?


God does not just look at the heart, He will judge according to ones deeds, Rom 2:6-11.

Eph 2:8,9 does not eliminate works it includes the work of faith. And EPh 2:10 speaks of those that are already Christians, already saved. Titus 2:14 Rev 2:26 Matthew chpater 25 it is no way possible one can be saved yet have no good works.

To clarify, there are OBEDIENT works that must be done to become saved/become a Chrsitian those being one must believe, Jn 8:24, repent, Lk 13>3,5 confess, Matt 10:32,33 and be baptized for remission of sins Mk 16:16 cf Acts 2:38. After one becomes saved/a Christian then he must do GOOD works that God preordained Christians to walk in. Are you willilng to argue one can be saved yet NOT walk in those good works God preordained Chrisians to walk in? THrefore my argument is that it is no way possible for one to be saved without ever doing any work at all. You cannot show me verses that get one saved by DOING NOTHING or where one is kept saved by DOING NOTHING.

Jn 10:4 "And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice."

Jn 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

How can one be a sheep and not do the works of hearing and following? (“Hear” is from akouo, which signifies to listen...it denotes an obedient listening to Jesus (see J.H. Thayer, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark, 1958, p. 23).



Again, "the finished work of Christ" does not help your argument. What Christ did is sufficient to save every man yet not evey man will not be saved for every man will not obey Christ, Heb 5:9...Christ is the author of salvation to all them that obey him, not all them that do nothing.

Ernest,

I am back after a very busy day at work and you have been on my thoughts and prayers quite a bit. (Yes, you have been living rent free in my head for a few hours ) I need to ask you a couple questions which will determine whether I continue this conversation or not.

1. Are you willing to have an honest discussion with the option of changing your mind or are you completely opposed to changing your mind?

2. Are you willing to at least try to be reasonable?

So far I have just tried to use general bible principle with you, but I am prepared to go verse for verse with you in explanation. I have been discussing this for years and it is a great burden of mine. These posts will get extremely long. I would prefer to do this in person and will gladly tell you where I am if you would like to see if that is a possibility. You know I am in Maryland...any chance? We could sit down with our bibles and try to hash out what God has for us.

There have already been a couple points of contradiction in your position. (i.e. Romans 2 being only for "groups" in another thread and now individuals) We can hash all this out on here or in person.

If you would rather not or can not acknowledge the possibility that you could possibly be wrong...we don't need to bother.

Before you ask...yes there is a possibility I could be wrong, but it would not be my belief if I thought I was, I am never afraid to hear opposing viewpoints.

SL

 

[justaname]

It takes obedient works of belief, repentance, confession and submitting to water baptism in order to become a Christian, Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33; Mk 16:16. After becoming a Christian, there are good works God has before ordained the Christian to walk in, Eph 2:10. One must be a Christian to be saved and it takes obedient works to become saved and good works to remain saved.
'Faith only' has no role in salvation at all.

How many works of belief must one complete to fulfill your works based salvation system? Would you not then say we are earning salvation as opposed to receiving a free gift?

To look at repentance in it's original form, it suggests change of thought or mindset. Here I am certain we agree that repentance is required, you must believe Jesus is the resurrected Christ for salvation.

What exactly must we confess, how often, and to whom?

I did not read the thief on the cross was baptized. Perhaps Jesus was not versed on your system of salvation...

 

[Harry3142]

Our salvation is obtained one way, and one way only:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

and-

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." As it is written:

"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." (Romans 9:30-33,NIV)

As a result of our accepting the salvation which God freely gives us, we are reborn at that very moment. Our salvation is assured, because it has been purchased for us by God himself, and paid for with the blood of his own Son, Jesus Christ. And just as a successful physical birth leads to development and maturity on the physical level, a genuine spiritual rebirth leads to development adn maturity on the spiritual level:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkennness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

If the motivations which culminate in our actions are those listed as 'the acts of the sinful nature', then the action must be seen as evil, due to its impetus being evil. This applies even to those actions which wear the veil of piety. Just as a poisoned tree cannot yield good fruit, no action which emanates from any of these motivations can be seen as anything other than evil.

In order for the actions to conform to God's will, their impetus must be the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit'. Just as the motivations listed as 'the acts of the sinful nature' are to be seen as culminating only in evil acts, the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit' are to be seen as the impetus for all acts of righteousness. That's why the words which immediately follow their listing are, "Against such things there is no law."

And how do we obtain the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit'? We obtain them as a direct result of our accepting the salvation which God himself earned for us. Not only is our salvation a free gift from God, but also our ability to perform righteous acts is a free gift from God. For it is his Spirit who implants these 'fruit' within us, and without them as our impetus we are capable of doing only what is evil in God's eyes.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Our salvation is obtained one way, and one way only:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

and-

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." As it is written:

"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." (Romans 9:30-33,NIV)

As a result of our accepting the salvation which God freely gives us, we are reborn at that very moment. Our salvation is assured, because it has been purchased for us by God himself, and paid for with the blood of his own Son, Jesus Christ. And just as a successful physical birth leads to development and maturity on the physical level, a genuine spiritual rebirth leads to development adn maturity on the spiritual level:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkennness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

If the motivations which culminate in our actions are those listed as 'the acts of the sinful nature', then the action must be seen as evil, due to its impetus being evil. This applies even to those actions which wear the veil of piety. Just as a poisoned tree cannot yield good fruit, no action which emanates from any of these motivations can be seen as anything other than evil.

In order for the actions to conform to God's will, their impetus must be the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit'. Just as the motivations listed as 'the acts of the sinful nature' are to be seen as culminating only in evil acts, the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit' are to be seen as the impetus for all acts of righteousness. That's why the words which immediately follow their listing are, "Against such things there is no law."

And how do we obtain the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit'? We obtain them as a direct result of our accepting the salvation which God himself earned for us. Not only is our salvation a free gift from God, but also our ability to perform righteous acts is a free gift from God. For it is his Spirit who implants these 'fruit' within us, and without them as our impetus we are capable of doing only what is evil in God's eyes.

The bible ties faith and works so closely together that faith is a work. Lev 17:11 says the life of the flesh is in the blood. likewise the life of faith is in the works. Remove the blood kill the flesh; remove the works kill the faith. So salvation is not possible without works, the work of faith.
One must 'walk by the Spirit' Gal 5:16 to have the fruits of the spirit. Walking by the spirit is a work. The Holy Spirit is the author of the word of God, the bible, and when one obeys this word, follows its directions then one is walking by the Spirit and will not be obeying the desires of the flesh. Rom 6:16 you obey one of two masters, you either obey 1) sin unto death or 2) obedience unto righteousness. I obey obedience unto righteousness, which master do you serve?






Man has no sinful nature...the NIV is a horrible translation.

You post "...our impetus we are capable of doing only what is evil in God's eyes." [ Not according to what God said in Gen 4:7]

You also posted "And how do we obtain the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit'? We obtain them as a direct result of our accepting the salvation..."

How can a man accept salvation if his impetus is that he is only capable of doing what is evil?

Accepting salvation is a work, again, one must have faith to be saved and faith is a work.

 

[7angels]

Ernest T. Bass

it sounds to me like what is being argued over is righteousness and not salvation. rom 10:9 tells us:




That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

this is all that is required to be saved. but in order to achieve righteousness then we are talking about a whole different can of worms(or talking about something else entirely different).

yes, you do need faith and works to be saved because according to rom 10:9 the works part is speaking out your mouth and the faith part is believing in your heart. just as the bible says faith without works is dead.

Ernest T. Bass says Accepting salvation is a work, again, one must have faith to be saved and faith is a work.

faith is not a work but a belief. according to rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. if faith was works then the verse would read So then works cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. if this were true then we would not need to go out into all the world to preach the Gospel because works is just hearing and listening to the word of God(this is unscriptural so works cannot be faith).

God bless

 

[justaname]

John 6:26-29
26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Christ is clear as to what God desires from us as far as works are concerned for salvation.

Now when the subject of sanctification presents itself the spectrum broadens from belief/faith to action. This is where most are confused in the debate of salvation, they think sanctification=salvation. This is incorrect. The scriptures are clear, it is belief in the resurrected Messiah that gains salvation, not works.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
37 And He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 “This is the great and foremost commandment.
39 “The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Here the action is made plain for all to see...love. Love God above all else, and love others as yourself. His burden is light, His yoke easy.

Let me clarify my position:
Faith is the catalyst for any type of good work, and these good works are accredited to the HolySpirit's work in us. We are merely the vehicle or vessel God is using for His works. The motivation of these good works is an outworking of love, and are directed for the gain of others with no self interest involved.

Works that are performed by us for the purpose of salvation are motivated by self gain, pride, and vanity. These stumble over the stone placed in Zion.

Yes faith and works go hand in hand, yet these works do nothing towards our salvation. These works are only the evidence that our faith is genuine.

 

[7angels]

John 6:26-29
26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Christ is clear as to what God desires from us as far as works are concerned for salvation.

Now when the subject of sanctification presents itself the spectrum broadens from belief/faith to action. This is where most are confused in the debate of salvation, they think sanctification=salvation. This is incorrect. The scriptures are clear, it is belief in the resurrected Messiah that gains salvation, not works.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
37 And He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 “This is the great and foremost commandment.
39 “The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Here the action is made plain for all to see...love. Love God above all else, and love others as yourself. His burden is light, His yoke easy.

Let me clarify my position:
Faith is the catalyst for any type of good work, and these good works are accredited to the HolySpirit's work in us. We are merely the vehicle or vessel God is using for His works. The motivation of these good works is an outworking of love, and are directed for the gain of others with no self interest involved.

Works that are performed by us for the purpose of salvation are motivated by self gain, pride, and vanity. These stumble over the stone placed in Zion.

Yes faith and works go hand in hand, yet these works do nothing towards our salvation. These works are only the evidence that our faith is genuine.

these are requirements for righteousness and not salvation.

God bless

 

[justaname]

these are requirements for righteousness and not salvation.

God bless

Yes I think we agree in this subject to a point, yet sanctification and righteousness do not equate either. Our righteousness is based upon our faith in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. As the scriptures say all our works are but menstrual rags, but His work, and our faith in such, gains a true righteousness.

Scripture also says this about works that solidifies my position in #46 concerning salvation motivated works.

Romans 4:4-8
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

How many works of belief must one complete to fulfill your works based salvation system? Would you not then say we are earning salvation as opposed to receiving a free gift?

To look at repentance in it's original form, it suggests change of thought or mindset. Here I am certain we agree that repentance is required, you must believe Jesus is the resurrected Christ for salvation.

What exactly must we confess, how often, and to whom?

I did not read the thief on the cross was baptized. Perhaps Jesus was not versed on your system of salvation...

Belief, Jn 8:24
Repetnace, Lk 13:3,5
confession, Matt 10:32,33
baptism, Mk 16;16

At this point one becomes a Christian, Upon becoming a Christian one must:

do good works/keep Christ's works living faithful unto death, Eph 2:10, Rev 2:10 Rev 2:26



Repentance is required and repentance is a work "...that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance" Acts 26:20.
Mt 12:41 Jesus, speaking of the Ninevites, said "..they repented at the preaching of Jonas" Looking at Jonah 3 we read the king lead Nineveh to repent in sackcloth and ashes and Jonah 3:10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way..."

So without the work of repentance there is no salvation.

Confession, Matthew 10:32,33 Rom 10:9,10

The thief on the cross is not an example of NT salvation nor do we know with any certainity he was never baptized, he may have been of those baptized in Mk 1:5

How many believers do you know are doing "nothing"? Technically, you are correct. But you are taking it to a place of intolerance. You are not talking about "no" fruit. You seem rather to be in the business of comparing yourself with others who you feel do not measure up to a certain standard, one that you obviously feel you yourself measure up to. This is not the same as faith without works. This is something else.

Belief is a work, Jn 6:27-29 and this is not just "technically" correct but biblically correct. So anyone who has a biblcal faith is doing a work for belief is not just a mere mental assent of the mind. It is also impossible for a Christain to do not good works, no fruits and maintain his salvation. Eph 2:10 there is no getting around that God has preordained the Christian to waslk in good works. I have not set up any standard at all, it is God that preordained Christians must do good works.

 

[justaname]

Belief, Jn 8:24
Repetnace, Lk 13:3,5
confession, Matt 10:32,33
baptism, Mk 16;16

At this point one becomes a Christian, Upon becoming a Christian one must:

do good works/keep Christ's works living faithful unto death, Eph 2:10, Rev 2:10 Rev 2:26



Repentance is required and repentance is a work "...that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance" Acts 26:20.
Mt 12:41 Jesus, speaking of the Ninevites, said "..they repented at the preaching of Jonas" Looking at Jonah 3 we read the king lead Nineveh to repent in sackcloth and ashes and Jonah 3:10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way..."

So without the work of repentance there is no salvation.

Confession, Matthew 10:32,33 Rom 10:9,10

The thief on the cross is not an example of NT salvation nor do we know with any certainity he was never baptized, he may have been of those baptized in Mk 1:5

I am going to refer you to the quote in #46 and #48...seeing as you did not answer any of my direct questions, perhaps you may want to comment on my position.

You speak of what one must do...I speak of what one does as a Christian...you call it a requirement...I call it a fulfillment.

As to the thief on the cross, that was John's baptism, not a baptism into Christ.
Acts 19:1-6
1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Of course not. But referring to faith as a work -- while not really wrong because 2 or 3 times the Bible does tell us to do the work of faith -- is a contradition. Here's why:

1. Paul so often voiced his objection to faith and works mixing. He said we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. He said that faith and works don't mix. They frustrate each other. He's clearly using the terms as opposites.

2. James (the author of the Epistle of James) is absolultely 100% when he says faith without works is dead! UNLESS he was talking about the "good works" I referred to. You, Ernest, also referred to it... But in a much smaller reference, because helping the brethren isn't the only "good work" (or maybe that's not really a good work.... Not really sure what your stance is on that....). The problem is that I'm not so sure James was speaking spiritually like Paul was.

3. The TRUTH of the matter is that faith itself must be renewed day by day. This is what Jesus meant when he taught the desciples to pray, "Give us this day our daily bread". Unless of course, you are worried about not having your toast in the morning.


Overall, if you want to call "faith" a "work" fine.... But why? Paul didn't. Yes I know he said "the work of faith" a few times (not that often). But he was clearly against works mixing with grace. But why the agenda of pushing it as a work? Why the agenda of contradicting Paul in words? Why not simply say, "folks... Grace comes through faith and not works. There's a few things and points to faith and it does take some effort (your life, really)!"

So why try to force faith and works to coexist?

LOL!!! Yea.... Good question!

Duly noted. Never said you did. However, I suspect it. Maybe not from you, but it'll come up eventually. If not from you, someone else.

Nowhere did Paul ever divorce faith from NT obedience, see Rom 6. When Paul speaks of faith apart from works as in Rom 4:4,5, the works under consideration are works of merit the "worker" in v4 does not an obedient faith as Abraham. An obedient, working faith saves, works of merit do not. In other places Paul speaks of woks of the OT law. WOrks of the OT law do not jsutify but an obeident faith to Christ's NT gospel does justifiy.


When Paul said works do not justify and James said works do jsutify, theyare not contradicting each other for they are not talking about the same kind of works. Again, Paul is speaking of works of merit whereas James is speaking of obedient works as Abraham had in offereing Isaac.

Paul is essentially saying works without faith does not justify and James is saying faith without works does not justify


Paul's Roman epistle begins with "for obedience to the faith" Rom 1:5 and ends with "for the obedience of faith" Rom 16:26

Ernest,

I am back after a very busy day at work and you have been on my thoughts and prayers quite a bit. (Yes, you have been living rent free in my head for a few hours ) I need to ask you a couple questions which will determine whether I continue this conversation or not.

1. Are you willing to have an honest discussion with the option of changing your mind or are you completely opposed to changing your mind?

2. Are you willing to at least try to be reasonable?

So far I have just tried to use general bible principle with you, but I am prepared to go verse for verse with you in explanation. I have been discussing this for years and it is a great burden of mine. These posts will get extremely long. I would prefer to do this in person and will gladly tell you where I am if you would like to see if that is a possibility. You know I am in Maryland...any chance? We could sit down with our bibles and try to hash out what God has for us.

There have already been a couple points of contradiction in your position. (i.e. Romans 2 being only for "groups" in another thread and now individuals) We can hash all this out on here or in person.

If you would rather not or can not acknowledge the possibility that you could possibly be wrong...we don't need to bother.

Before you ask...yes there is a possibility I could be wrong, but it would not be my belief if I thought I was, I am never afraid to hear opposing viewpoints.

SL

I always approach forums with an open mind but I'm not open to obvious errors.
Are YOU willing to be reasonable? Do you accept Eph 2:10 or deny it and want to change it?

Your argument, as some others, has been about "the finished work of Christ" being sufficient which I have answered numerous times without getting the first response back on it.

The work Christ did is suffient enough to saved every man, Heb 2:9, so why isn't every man saved? For every man wil not obey Christ, Heb 5:9. So you argument fails you here.

You were also wrong in Romans chapters 1-3 where Paul is clearly talking about the two groups, Jew and Gentile. You never gave one iota of proof otherwise. Here is your chance again, what particular individual is Paul talking about in romans 1-3 if he is not talking about those two groups, Jew and Gentile? Who is that mystery individual Paul is speaking about Romans chapters 1-3?

Ernest T. Bass

it sounds to me like what is being argued over is righteousness and not salvation. rom 10:9 tells us:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
this is all that is required to be saved. but in order to achieve righteousness then we are talking about a whole different can of worms(or talking about something else entirely different).

yes, you do need faith and works to be saved because according to rom 10:9 the works part is speaking out your mouth and the faith part is believing in your heart. just as the bible says faith without works is dead.

Ernest T. Bass says Accepting salvation is a work, again, one must have faith to be saved and faith is a work.

faith is not a work but a belief. according to rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. if faith was works then the verse would read So then works cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. if this were true then we would not need to go out into all the world to preach the Gospel because works is just hearing and listening to the word of God(this is unscriptural so works cannot be faith).

God bless

I agree, believing and confessing with the mouth are works, and if those works are not done one cannot be saved...[unless someone is willing to ague the unbelieving denier of Christ can be saved]


The bible does tie faith and works so closely together that faith is a work, one cannot have a faith if he has no works. A point James makes in James Chpat 2 is that if you hav no works then you cannot even prove you have faith.

1 Thess 1:3 and Gal 5:6 both speak of a working faith.

In Mark 2:1-5 Jesus is in a crowed house and watches as men remove part of the roof and lower a sick man down to Him on a bed. Verse 5 then says "When Jesus saw their faith..." What is it that Jesus saw that is called faith? WORKS....the works is called faith.


From Eph 2:8 we are told the Ephesians were saved by faith. 1 Pet 3:21 we are told baptism saves. SInce there is jsut one way to be sved, then:

Eph 2:8----faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21--baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

So a saving faith must include the work of submitting to water baptism. We are told that repentance saves (not perish), Lk 13:3,5 and confession saves, Rom 10:9,10 so a saving faith must then also include repentance and confession.


Comparing ACts 2:41 with verse 44, those that were "baptized" in v41 are the ones who "believed" in v44 so we have 'believed" in v44 include being baptized.

Rom 10:13-17 one cannot believe what he has not heard about, so hearing may lead to an obedient belief that calls upon the name of the Lord.

 

[justaname]

More scripture disputing the false claim that baptism and or works are necessary for salvation:

Titus 3:4-8
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

Looking to this passage we see several thing supporting my claim. First off we are not saved by deeds done in righteousness, rather according to His mercy. The baptism is the washing of regeneration and renewing by the HolySpirt, not the pouring of water or dunking performed by men.

We are justified by His grace, not our actions.

The good deeds we engage in we are directed to do, yet not for the purpose of salvation, rather because they are good and profitable for men.

You cannot earn salvation through works, that is a fallacy.

 

[williemac]

Great post, Justaname. Here is the nail on the coffin of the OP title:

." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace, but as debt. But to him who does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness". Rom.4:4,5

Now, if the op meant that salvation is not 'granted' without works, then it is proven wrong in this passage.

But, If by "works" we mean "fruit", then we can accurately predict that all those who receive life will bear fruit. This is the Life of God we are talking about. Does anyone honestly want to argue that God's life can possibly fail to bear fruit? One would have to spend a lifetime resisting and opposing it for that to happen. (ie. dig a hole and bury it) Is this the kind of person that would want to receive it in the first place?

 

[FHII]

Williemac and Justaname:

I understand what Ernest is trying to get accross, though I'm not agreeing with him. I'd like to ask you two some questions about his original post. Have a look at the first sentance of his post:

Ernest T Bass wrote:

"It takes obedient works of belief, repentance, confession and submitting to water baptism in order to become a Christian,"

What I'd like to ask you, Williemac and Justaname, is this: Do you believe that one must believe, repent, confess and be baptized?

Here's the thing.... I do! I don't think you must repent more than once (if you do it right) and I don't think water baptism is necessary (it's ok to do, though), but I do believe you have to be baptized into Christ. Furthermore, I think you have to stay baptized!

Here's another question: Do you believe one must be obedient to the Word? Well, I do too, but of course it is a loaded question. It's a loaded question because it can be used to demand one stop sinning and go back to the OT law! No, it hasn't been done in this thread, but hang in there... It'll come eventually! But obedience to the Word doesn't only mean obedience to every verse (verses can be isolated), but obedience to whe Word as a whole (which means you can't isolate one or two verses, but must take the entire Bible in context).

My final question is do you believe one must do "good works" ? The question is what are good works? It has been suggested (and I paraphrase) that good works are helping poor brethren. I believe in helping the poor brethren, but I don't believe it is necessary for salvation. What if you are the poor brethren? What if there are no poor brethren in your community? Hypothetical questions of course... but "good works" is much more than helping the poor (especially in the way suggested).

Furthermore, if you look closely at Eph 2:10 (especially at the KJV), it doesn't say we must do good works!

Now, my final point is this.... I don't know how you answered these questions, but I seriously doubt there is a true Christian who doesn't believe in these things. I don't believe there is a Christian who doesn't understand that they need to repent, believe and confess. I don't believe any Christian doesn't understand they must be obedient to the Word (despite whether they understand correctly or actually do it). I also don't know many Christians who don't believe in doing "Good works". I don't think many understand what they are, but I do think they believe they are doing them.

The overall question is why are they now (in this thread) being called works to begin with? These things are not faith, but they are a part of faith, so why call them "works"?

So while I believe that one must believe, confess, repent and be baptized and be obedient to the Word, I am very suspicious when someone tries to catagorize them as "works". They don't intend to do so, but it makes Paul look stupid when he said over and over "not of works". It also makes me wonder whats coming down the line if I agree with their notion (based on their reasoning) that we need works.

(Now, watch them focus on my statement about making Paul look stupid instead of the overall point!)

 

[justaname]

Williemac and Justaname:

I understand what Ernest is trying to get accross, though I'm not agreeing with him. I'd like to ask you two some questions about his original post. Have a look at the first sentance of his post:

Ernest T Bass wrote:

"It takes obedient works of belief, repentance, confession and submitting to water baptism in order to become a Christian,"

What I'd like to ask you, Williemac and Justaname, is this: Do you believe that one must believe, repent, confess and be baptized?

Here's the thing.... I do! I don't think you must repent more than once (if you do it right) and I don't think water baptism is necessary (it's ok to do, though), but I do believe you have to be baptized into Christ. Furthermore, I think you have to stay baptized!

Here's another question: Do you believe one must be obedient to the Word? Well, I do too, but of course it is a loaded question. It's a loaded question because it can be used to demand one stop sinning and go back to the OT law! No, it hasn't been done in this thread, but hang in there... It'll come eventually! But obedience to the Word doesn't only mean obedience to every verse (verses can be isolated), but obedience to whe Word as a whole (which means you can't isolate one or two verses, but must take the entire Bible in context).

My final question is do you believe one must do "good works" ? The question is what are good works? It has been suggested (and I paraphrase) that good works are helping poor brethren. I believe in helping the poor brethren, but I don't believe it is necessary for salvation. What if you are the poor brethren? What if there are no poor brethren in your community? Hypothetical questions of course... but "good works" is much more than helping the poor (especially in the way suggested).

Furthermore, if you look closely at Eph 2:10 (especially at the KJV), it doesn't say we must do good works!

Now, my final point is this.... I don't know how you answered these questions, but I seriously doubt there is a true Christian who doesn't believe in these things. I don't believe there is a Christian who doesn't understand that they need to repent, believe and confess. I don't believe any Christian doesn't understand they must be obedient to the Word (despite whether they understand correctly or actually do it). I also don't know many Christians who don't believe in doing "Good works". I don't think many understand what they are, but I do think they believe they are doing them.

The overall question is why are they now (in this thread) being called works to begin with? These things are not faith, but they are a part of faith, so why call them "works"?

So while I believe that one must believe, confess, repent and be baptized and be obedient to the Word, I am very suspicious when someone tries to catagorize them as "works". They don't intend to do so, but it makes Paul look stupid when he said over and over "not of works". It also makes me wonder whats coming down the line if I agree with their notion (based on their reasoning) that we need works.

(Now, watch them focus on my statement about making Paul look stupid instead of the overall point!)

What I see is a frame of mind, or a system of thought that is incorrect.

I never argue against good works, repentance (in the moral perspective), confession, baptism, communion, or anything else related to the faith. My disagreement comes in when one says these are necessary for salvation. Salvation is faith based, not works based. It is belief in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ that is the basis for the reward of salvation. Scripture is clear. Many men simply disagree with what God gives freely because they want to earn it instead, yet they can't. They reason if they can earn it then by their standard of measure they can exclude others from God's salvation.

Perhaps a more accurate statement is those who are saved exemplify good works in their lives.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

John 6:26-29
26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Christ is clear as to what God desires from us as far as works are concerned for salvation.

Now when the subject of sanctification presents itself the spectrum broadens from belief/faith to action. This is where most are confused in the debate of salvation, they think sanctification=salvation. This is incorrect. The scriptures are clear, it is belief in the resurrected Messiah that gains salvation, not works.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
37 And He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 “This is the great and foremost commandment.
39 “The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Here the action is made plain for all to see...love. Love God above all else, and love others as yourself. His burden is light, His yoke easy.

Let me clarify my position:
Faith is the catalyst for any type of good work, and these good works are accredited to the HolySpirit's work in us. We are merely the vehicle or vessel God is using for His works. The motivation of these good works is an outworking of love, and are directed for the gain of others with no self interest involved.

Works that are performed by us for the purpose of salvation are motivated by self gain, pride, and vanity. These stumble over the stone placed in Zion.

Yes faith and works go hand in hand, yet these works do nothing towards our salvation. These works are only the evidence that our faith is genuine.

Love is associated with obedient works/keeping commandments:

Jn 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Jn 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jn 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

Throw in a couple more verses:

Lk 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

Mt 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."


From Jn 6:27-29 belief is a work and one must do this work in order to be saved.

Jn 6:28 "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”

Note they asked Jesus what THEY-WE are to DO and Jesus did not give them an answer a faith only proponent would for Jesus did NOT say "do no works else you will be trying to earn your salvation". Yet Jesus gave them a work to do: the work of believing. A night and day response from how Jesus and a faith only proponent would answer that question.

Same is true in Acts 2 and Acts 16 when those in these two contexts asked what they must DO to be saved. In neither case were they given a "faith only" answer or that by doing they would be trying to earn salvation but in both cases they were given obedient works to do. Again, a night and day difference in how inspired apostles of Christ answered that question and how a "faith only preacher" would answer that question.

It becomes more and more evident one cannot be saved without works.

Yes I think we agree in this subject to a point, yet sanctification and righteousness do not equate either. Our righteousness is based upon our faith in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. As the scriptures say all our works are but menstrual rags, but His work, and our faith in such, gains a true righteousness.

Scripture also says this about works that solidifies my position in #46 concerning salvation motivated works.

Romans 4:4-8
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”

Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."
Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Paul is contrasting works of merit that do not save in v4 to an obedient faith that does save in v5.

The "worker" in v4 is one who works to keep God's law perfectly whereby he merits salvation. For if one could keep God's law perfectly then his salvation would not be reckoned of grace but of debt.

So verse 5 is saying "but to him that does not work to merit salvation but believeth...his faith is counted for righteousness." "But" is a contrasting word contrasting the meritorious worker from the one with obedient faith. So "worketh not" does not exclude all works for it does not exclude a faithful obedience to God's will, it is excluding works of merit of verse 4. Futhermore, it is a biblcal fact in Jn 6:27-29 among many other verses that a saving belief is a work, it is obedience (Jn 3:36 American Standard Version) for belief must include obedient works else it is dead.

Therefore in v5 "worketh not" would not include a obedience to God's will by belief for Paul would not contradict himself by first excluding all works then include the work of believing. In the context Paul uses Abraham's faith which was an an obeient faith, Heb 11:8,17 James 2:21-24


Rom 4:7,8 "Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

God does not forgive randomly or for no reason at all. David was repentant and one today must be obedient by repenting of his sins (Lk 13:3,5) so his iniquities will be forgiven, his sins covered. Doing no works will not bring one God's forgiveness.

 

[justaname]

Love is associated with obeident works/keeping commandments:

Jn 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Jn 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jn 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

Throw in a couple more verses:

Lk 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

Mt 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."


From Jn 6:27-29 belief is a work and one must do this work in order to be saved.

Jn 6:28 "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”

Note they asked Jesus what THEY-WE are to DO and Jesus did not give them an answer a faith only proponent would for Jesus did NOT say "do no works else you will be trying to earn your salvation". Yet Jesus gave them a work to do,the work of believing. A night and day response from how Jesus and a faith only proponent would answer that question.

Same is true in Acts 2 and Acts 16 when those in these two contexts asked what they must DO to be saved. In neither case were they given a "faith only" answer or that doing they would be trying to earn salvation but in both cases they were given obedient works to do. Again, a night and day difference in how inspired apostles of Christ answered that question and how a "faith only preacher" would answer that question.

It becomes more and more evident one cannot be saved without works.

Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."
Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Paul is contrasting works of merit that do not save in v4 to an obedient faith that does save in v5.

The "worker" in v4 is one who works to keep God's law perfectly whereby he merits salvation. For if one could keep God's law perfectly then his salvation would not be reckoned of grace but of debt.

So verse 5 is saying "but to him that does not work to merit salvation but believeth...his faith is counted for righteousness." "But" is a contrasting word contrasting the meritorious worker from the one with obedient faith. So "worketh not" does not exclude all works for it does not exclude a faithful obedience to God's will, it is excluding works of merit of verse 4. Futhermore, it is a biblcal fact in Jn 6:27-29 among many other verses that a saving belief is a work, it is obedience (Jn 3:36 American Standard Version) for belief must include obedient works else it is dead.

Therefore in v5 "worketh not" would not include a obedience to God's will by belief for Paul would not contradict himself by first excluding all works then include the work of believing. In the context Paul uses Abraham's faith which was an an obeient faith, Heb 11:8,17 James 2:21-24


Rom 4:7,8 "Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

God does not forgive randomly or for no reason at all. David was repentant and one today must be obedient by repenting of his sins (Lk 13:3,5) so his iniquities will be forgiven, his sins covered. Doing no works will not bring one God's forgiveness.

Faith is not a work, even though the work of faith is salvation. This is to say faith works, but you don't need to work to have faith.

In the John passage the answer given by Jesus is "to believe." Thereby Jesus is replying there is no "work" that is needed, only faith.
If I tell you the Red Sox are going to win the pennant, does it take "work" to believe or not? No.

Your incorrect rationalization of a works based salvation is false.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Williemac and Justaname:

I understand what Ernest is trying to get accross, though I'm not agreeing with him. I'd like to ask you two some questions about his original post. Have a look at the first sentance of his post:

Ernest T Bass wrote:

"It takes obedient works of belief, repentance, confession and submitting to water baptism in order to become a Christian,"

What I'd like to ask you, Williemac and Justaname, is this: Do you believe that one must believe, repent, confess and be baptized?

Here's the thing.... I do! I don't think you must repent more than once (if you do it right) and I don't think water baptism is necessary (it's ok to do, though), but I do believe you have to be baptized into Christ. Furthermore, I think you have to stay baptized!

Here's another question: Do you believe one must be obedient to the Word? Well, I do too, but of course it is a loaded question. It's a loaded question because it can be used to demand one stop sinning and go back to the OT law! No, it hasn't been done in this thread, but hang in there... It'll come eventually! But obedience to the Word doesn't only mean obedience to every verse (verses can be isolated), but obedience to whe Word as a whole (which means you can't isolate one or two verses, but must take the entire Bible in context).

My final question is do you believe one must do "good works" ? The question is what are good works? It has been suggested (and I paraphrase) that good works are helping poor brethren. I believe in helping the poor brethren, but I don't believe it is necessary for salvation. What if you are the poor brethren? What if there are no poor brethren in your community? Hypothetical questions of course... but "good works" is much more than helping the poor (especially in the way suggested).

Furthermore, if you look closely at Eph 2:10 (especially at the KJV), it doesn't say we must do good works!

Now, my final point is this.... I don't know how you answered these questions, but I seriously doubt there is a true Christian who doesn't believe in these things. I don't believe there is a Christian who doesn't understand that they need to repent, believe and confess. I don't believe any Christian doesn't understand they must be obedient to the Word (despite whether they understand correctly or actually do it). I also don't know many Christians who don't believe in doing "Good works". I don't think many understand what they are, but I do think they believe they are doing them.

The overall question is why are they now (in this thread) being called works to begin with? These things are not faith, but they are a part of faith, so why call them "works"?

So while I believe that one must believe, confess, repent and be baptized and be obedient to the Word, I am very suspicious when someone tries to catagorize them as "works". They don't intend to do so, but it makes Paul look stupid when he said over and over "not of works". It also makes me wonder whats coming down the line if I agree with their notion (based on their reasoning) that we need works.

(Now, watch them focus on my statement about making Paul look stupid instead of the overall point!)

You posted "
What I'd like to ask you, Williemac and Justaname, is this: Do you believe that one must believe, repent, confess and be baptized?

Here's the thing.... I do!"

And you are defeating your own argument. And yes they are all works, some thing done for they certainly are not "sitting and doing nothing" for how can one believe, repent confess and submit to water baptism by "doing nothing'? You are either doing some thing or doing nothing. Ironically on other fourms I have been told by some that one does nothing to be saved......except say a "sinner's prayer". Well that is doing some thing.


You posted:

Here's another question: Do you believe one must be obedient to the Word? Well, I do too, but of course it is a loaded question. It's a loaded question because it can be used to demand one stop sinning and go back to the OT law! No, it hasn't been done in this thread, but hang in there... It'll come eventually!


My question is can one NOT be obedient to Christ's NT and still be saved in disobedient unrighteousness?

One CANNOT be saved by going back to keep the OT law, see Paul's Galatian epistle. Theyhad gone back tothe OT law thinking they could be jsutified by the OT law of circumcision and for doing so they were told by Paul theyhad quit obeying the truth implying Chrsitains must conti8nue to obey Christ's NT to be saved, Rev 2:26...."keepeth My works". So one must obey Christ's NT law in believing, Jn 8:24; repenting, Lk 13:3,5; confessing, Matt 10:32,33 submitting to water bpatism, Mk 16:16. So keep waitng for something that will never come.


Lastly you posted:
My final question is do you believe one must do "good works" ? The question is what are good works? It has been suggested (and I paraphrase) that good works are helping poor brethren. I believe in helping the poor brethren, but I don't believe it is necessary for salvation. What if you are the poor brethren? What if there are no poor brethren in your community? Hypothetical questions of course... but "good works" is much more than helping the poor (especially in the way suggested).

And you are in total, complete contradiction with the bible, Eph 2:10, Matt chapter 25, Tts 2:14, etc, etc

So what do you do? You try and change Eph 2:10, You post:

Furthermore, if you look closely at Eph 2:10 (especially at the KJV), it doesn't say we must do good works!

Eph 2:10 KJV "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Pronoun "them" refers back to the antecendant "good works" which God preordained Christian to walk in.

Faith is not a work, even though the work of faith is salvation. This is to say faith works, but you don't need to work to have faith.

In the John passage the answer given by Jesus is "to believe." Thereby Jesus is replying there is no "work" that is needed, only faith.
If I tell you the Red Sox are going to win the pennant, does it take "work" to believe or not? No.

Your incorrect rationalization of a works based salvation is false.

Again, the bible ties faith and works so closely together that faith is a work. Works is what gives life to faith for without those works faith is dead. As James points out if one has no works then he has no way to prove he has faith. Prove to me you have faith by sitting and doing nothing.
In Mk 2:5 what is it Jesus saw that is called "faith"? Works.


In Jn 6:28 the question asked is: "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

In Jn 6:29 the answer given is: believe. (Jesus did NOT tell them to "believe only". You do great damage and change the verse by adding your idea.)

Again, those people asked what THEY must do, not what Jesus or God does for them. They asked what we DO. You would have answered differently from Jesus by telling them to "do nothing lest you be trying to earn your salvation". Nor did Jesus answer them, "I will do all the work that is sufficient for you therefore you do nothing."

 

[justaname]

You posted "
What I'd like to ask you, Williemac and Justaname, is this: Do you believe that one must believe, repent, confess and be baptized?

Here's the thing.... I do!"

And you are defeating your own argument. And yes they are all works, some thing done for they certainly are not "sitting and doing nothing" for how can one believe, repent confess and submit to water baptism by "doing nothing'? You are either doing some thing or doing nothing. Ironically on other fourms I have been told by some that one does nothing to be saved......except say a "sinner's prayer". Well that is doing some thing.


You posted:

Here's another question: Do you believe one must be obedient to the Word? Well, I do too, but of course it is a loaded question. It's a loaded question because it can be used to demand one stop sinning and go back to the OT law! No, it hasn't been done in this thread, but hang in there... It'll come eventually!


My question is can one NOT be obedient to Christ's NT and still be saved in disobedient unrighteousness?

One CANNOT be saved by going back to keep the OT law, see Paul's Galatian epistle. Theyhad gone back tothe OT law thinking they could be jsutified by the OT law of circumcision and for doing so they were told by Paul theyhad quit obeying the truth implying Chrsitains must conti8nue to obey Christ's NT to be saved, Rev 2:26...."keepeth My works". So one must obey Christ's NT law in believing, Jn 8:24; repenting, Lk 13:3,5; confessing, Matt 10:32,33 submitting to water bpatism, Mk 16:16. So keep waitng for something that will never come.


Lastly you posted:
My final question is do you believe one must do "good works" ? The question is what are good works? It has been suggested (and I paraphrase) that good works are helping poor brethren. I believe in helping the poor brethren, but I don't believe it is necessary for salvation. What if you are the poor brethren? What if there are no poor brethren in your community? Hypothetical questions of course... but "good works" is much more than helping the poor (especially in the way suggested).

And you are in total, complete contradiction with the bible, Eph 2:10, Matt chapter 25, Tts 2:14, etc, etc

So what do you do? You try and change Eph 2:10, You post:

Furthermore, if you look closely at Eph 2:10 (especially at the KJV), it doesn't say we must do good works!

Eph 2:10 KJV "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Pronoun "them" refers back to the antecendant "good works" which God preordained Christian to walk in.

Again, the bible ties faith and works so closely together that faith is a work. Works is what gives life to faith for without those works faith is dead. As James points out if one has no works then he has no way to prove he has faith. Prove to me you have faith by sitting and doing nothing.
In Mk 2:5 what is it Jesus saw that is called "faith"? Works.


In Jn 6:28 the question asked is: "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

In Jn 6:29 the answer given is: believe. (Jesus did NOT tell them to "believe only". You do great damage and change the verse by adding your idea.)

Again, those people asked what THEY must do, not what Jesus or God does for them. They asked what we DO. You would have answered differently from Jesus by telling them to "do nothing lest you be trying to earn your salvation". Nor did Jesus answer them, "I will do all the work that is sufficient for you therefore you do nothing."

You have put the cart before the horse here. Faith is what drives our works.

If as you say works give life to faith, why were the Jews not saved by their works? Paul writes extensively about this, and you speak directly against what he teaches us through divine scripture. Another false belief on your part.

If we as you say use the works to drive our faith, all our works are done out of a selfish desire thereby they equate to sin not righteousness.
Now I never said Jesus said to "believe only." You twist my words as you do the understanding of the relation between works and faith. I said Jesus only said to believe. Big difference.

I like the fact you use the Ephesians passage...It says we are His workmanship...not our own workmanship...we were created for good works...not that we create our own good works...He prepared them...we did not achieve them by our actions...so that we would walk in them.

Faith is not a work, you are mistaken.

Good works are evident in the lives of those being saved, not that we seek good works for the reward of salvation. False motivation will produce a true reward of sin.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

When Paul said works do not justify and James said works do jsutify, theyare not contradicting each other for they are not talking about the same kind of works. Again, Paul is speaking of works of merit whereas James is speaking of obedient works as Abraham had in offereing Isaac.

Paul is essentially saying works without faith does not justify and James is saying faith without works does not justify


Paul's Roman epistle begins with "for obedience to the faith" Rom 1:5 and ends with "for the obedience of faith" Rom 16:26

I always approach forums with an open mind but I'm not open to obvious errors.
Are YOU willing to be reasonable? Do you accept Eph 2:10 or deny it and want to change it?

Your argument, as some others, has been about "the finished work of Christ" being sufficient which I have answered numerous times without getting the first response back on it.

The work Christ did is suffient enough to saved every man, Heb 2:9, so why isn't every man saved? For every man wil not obey Christ, Heb 5:9. So you argument fails you here.

You were also wrong in Romans chapters 1-3 where Paul is clearly talking about the two groups, Jew and Gentile. You never gave one iota of proof otherwise. Here is your chance again, what particular individual is Paul talking about in romans 1-3 if he is not talking about those two groups, Jew and Gentile? Who is that mystery individual Paul is speaking about Romans chapters 1-3?

Again Ernest, you seem to be misreading.

1. You are correct that Paul and James do not contradict. Imagine that....God is not a liar. But where the error is coming in is not in what type of works they are talking about. Notice how you had to go into speculation about what Paul was "essentially saying", this is to fit your viewpoint to scripture...not taking your viewpoint from scripture? (Also notice how I just used the words to and from, we will come back to this at a later time) The key phrase in the Romans 4:2 is not before God. Our works never justify us before God. James is talking about our works justifying us before men. One can not make it to James 2:21 without noticing that James 2:14-22 is talking about how your "brothers and sisters" will notice your faith. verse 18 "A man may say". It seems rather clear. Paul is talking justification before God. James....man.

2.To get into your charge about Ephesians 2:10 will take considerable time if the plain language of Ephesians 2:8-9 immediately proceeding it does not speak clearly to you. I will address this in another post.

3. We agree that the work of Christ is sufficient. We know that God's desire is that every man would come to repentance. So God made a way for every man to come. A mans choice is only not to come...what a man should do by nature (Romans 1) is come. Or did God make a mistake? Did He make it so that some would not come? If He did...how can He say He wants all to come? I thought we already agreed that God wasn't a liar? Is God a liar?

4. In post #30 on this thread you used Romans 2 and said the word "one's". The word one is singular. You seem to be contradicting yourself. Is it group? Or can we reasonably take lessons from it also for "one's"? What particular individual is Paul talking about? Me? You? Geesh...only you seem to think that a group is not defined by the individual. Again, how can you have a group without an individual? So the sum may be understood from the parts. I never thought I would have to explain such basic principals. Just out of curiosity...if you were correct...and Paul is only talking about the two groups (Jew and Gentile) and didn't mean any individual instruction from it...why then in Romans 3:23 does he not say "both have sinned and..." instead of "all have sinned and..."?

SL