Salvation Not Possible Without Works

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aspen

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it is interesting to think about salvation and where it comes from.......we like to argue about faith and works - many Protestants like to claim that cathloics and people in other religions like to work for their salvation. Catholics like to remind Protestants that they actually teach works, - and their participation in their relationship with Christ proves it. Yet, when it comes right down to it, it is Gods grace that saves us - not our faith or our works. Who here can claim they have earned Gods Grace? not me.
 

williemac

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aspen said:
it is interesting to think about salvation and where it comes from.......we like to argue about faith and works - many Protestants like to claim that cathloics and people in other religions like to work for their salvation. Catholics like to remind Protestants that they actually teach works, - and their participation in their relationship with Christ proves it. Yet, when it comes right down to it, it is Gods grace that saves us - not our faith or our works. Who here can claim they have earned Gods Grace? not me.
One does not earn grace. One qualifies for it. God gives grace to the humble. Grace is about giving something freely, without merit. One cannot earn something that is free. But the attempt to earn it would disqualify a person from getting it freely.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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kjw47 said:
It works like this---( excercising) Faith gets one saved-- works builds a strong faith.

Jesus taught--- the proof of ones love for him, is by listening to his teachings, and applying those teachings obviously.
Yes, applying those teachings would require works.

Secondhand Lion said:
Okay, now I believe we are getting somewhere. I have been trying to figure out where you are coming from.

Do you happen to believe in the Divine Flesh doctrines?

There is flesh and there is spirit. I do not deny these verses, but they are in reference to our spiritual walk/world. We do live here in the flesh, of course, where there is male and female, bond, free and so on.

The only doctrine that I am aware of that confuses the flesh and spirit and differences between the two (acting as if there is no difference between) is the Divine Flesh doctrines.
I've never heard of Divine Flesh doctrines.

aspen said:
it is interesting to think about salvation and where it comes from.......we like to argue about faith and works - many Protestants like to claim that cathloics and people in other religions like to work for their salvation. Catholics like to remind Protestants that they actually teach works, - and their participation in their relationship with Christ proves it. Yet, when it comes right down to it, it is Gods grace that saves us - not our faith or our works. Who here can claim they have earned Gods Grace? not me.
God's grace is conditional upon man's obedience, so "grace alone" will not save. Naaman was cleansed by grace but his cleansing was conditional upon his obedience In dipping in the river 7 times. He never would have been healed by grace alone, never healed without obedience.
 

Floyd

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I agree!
Our Lord IS all sufficient.
Works will follow Salvation, as sure as day follows night.
Think of those who are incapable of physical works?
No; our Lord's work on the cross of Calvary is complete; otherwise He need not have left His Glory with the Father, to bare His arm for us!
He said: "Your work is to believe on Me"!
He said: "All your works are as filthy rags"!
He said: "even those that believe on My Name" will be saved!
Regards.
Floyd.
 

williemac

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Ernest T. Bass said:
God's grace is conditional upon man's obedience, so "grace alone" will not save. Naaman was cleansed by grace but his cleansing was conditional upon his obedience In dipping in the river 7 times. He never would have been healed by grace alone, never healed without obedience.
You are correct. Grace is offered. It requires receiving. Naaman's actions were in response to the instructions as to how to receive. Our instructions are less complicated. We are saved by grace...through faith. Our obedience is to forsake any thought that we can merit life through our own resources. (lest anyone should boast..(Eph.2:9)
The obedience takes place in the heart. "for with the heart one believes to righteousness". Furthermore, the outward indication is demonstrated by our confession..." and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Rom.10:9,10)
Naaman's outward demonstration was an isolated case, specific to his situation. As the above reply (#84) states, our works (more appropriately called fruit) come as a result of what we were given, not as a condition being met in order to get it.

The Op statement is poorly and incorrectly worded. It should say..."Valid works are not possible without salvation"
 

Floyd

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No.
Salvation in Christ Jesus is by Faith only!
His is the finished work!
All other opinion is heretic against the Cross of Calvary!
Floyd.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Floyd said:
No.
Salvation in Christ Jesus is by Faith only!
His is the finished work!
All other opinion is heretic against the Cross of Calvary!
Floyd.
Jesus nor His apostles ever taught savlation is by faith only. They taught just the opposite of faith only..."Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"

Jn 3:16 Jesus taught one must believe in order to not perish/be saved
Lk 13:3 Jesus taught one must repent not to perish/be saved
Mt 10:32,33 Jesus taught one must confess to be saved
Mk 16;16 Jesus taught one must be bpatized to be saved/remission of sins cf Acts 2:38

Since there is just one way to be saved then belief must include repentance, confession and baptism. All the faith only in the world cannot save the impenitent, the one who denies Christ and the one in his unremitted sins

So it takes obedient works in believing repenting confession and submitting to water baptism in order to be saved and it takes good works in order to remain in a saved state, Eph 2:10.


Faih only = doing nothing. Not a single verse says doing nothing saves or keeps one saved.
 

Floyd

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Jesus said "even those that believe on my name"!
You have misquoted Him in your statement! That is not a good thing to do regarding Scripture!
Faith, as Martin Luther said, is the only requirement!
Floyd.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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williemac said:
You are correct. Grace is offered. It requires receiving. Naaman's actions were in response to the instructions as to how to receive. Our instructions are less complicated. We are saved by grace...through faith. Our obedience is to forsake any thought that we can merit life through our own resources. (lest anyone should boast..(Eph.2:9)
The obedience takes place in the heart. "for with the heart one believes to righteousness". Furthermore, the outward indication is demonstrated by our confession..." and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Rom.10:9,10)
Naaman's outward demonstration was an isolated case, specific to his situation. As the above reply (#84) states, our works (more appropriately called fruit) come as a result of what we were given, not as a condition being met in order to get it.

The Op statement is poorly and incorrectly worded. It should say..."Valid works are not possible without salvation"
Yes, it tooks Naaman's OBEDIENCE in rsponding to dipping in order to receive grace. So GO'ds grace was CONDITONAL upon his obedicne to God's will in dipping.

No obedicne = no grace

Likewise God's grace is CONDITIONAL upon one doing the work of believing, repenting confessing and submitting to baptism. ANd just as dipping earned Naaman nothing, believing repetinig confessing and being baptized earn nothing either.

So recieving grace is CONDITIONAL upon man having faith not faith only. A biblical faith includes repentance, confession and baptism for remission of sins. Faith only CANNOT save the impenitent, the one who dinies Christ and the one who is in his unremitted sins. So if anyone desries t argue faith onlysavies then they ned to be prepared to argue that the impenitent, the denier of Christ the one still lost in his unremitted sins can be saved.

Naaman is not an isolated case. God had Israel CONDITIONALLY march around the Jericho whereas the walls then would fall, Jer 6.
It was by God's grace those in the ship with Paul would be saved if they CONDTIONALLY remain in the ship, Acts 27:24 > 31
Jesus, by grace, spat upon the ground making a salve for the blind man, but the blind man had to CONDITIONLLY go and wash his eyes in the pool to receive his sight.

You post "..."Valid works are not possible without salvation" which is putting the cart before the horse, backwards from the way the bible has it.

You have one saved BEFORE he does obedient works, in other words, you have one saved:

before he does the work of believing > saved while in unbelief
before he does the work of repenting > saved while impenitent
before he deos the work of conffessing Christ > saved while a denier of Christ
before he does the work of submitting to water baptism > saved while still lost in unremitted sins.
Floyd said:
Jesus said "even those that believe on my name"!
You have misquoted Him in your statement! That is not a good thing to do regarding Scripture!
Faith, as Martin Luther said, is the only requirement!
Floyd.
Jesus did NOT say "he that believeth only shall not perish" Christ's words are perverted when the word 'only" is added to what He said. Again, Christ said repentance saves, Lk 13:3, confession saves, Mat 10:32,33 and bpatism saves Mk 16;16. CHrist NEVER said belief only saves.

Martin Luther does not determine how man is to be saved for God's word, the bible determines that. In Luther's German translation of the bible, Luther tried to change, pervert, corrupt God's word by ADDING the word "only" to Rom 3:28.
 

williemac

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Ernest T. Bass said:
Yes, it tooks Naaman's OBEDIENCE in rsponding to dipping in order to receive grace. So GO'ds grace was CONDITONAL upon his obedicne to God's will in dipping.

No obedicne = no grace

Likewise God's grace is CONDITIONAL upon one doing the work of believing, repenting confessing and submitting to baptism. ANd just as dipping earned Naaman nothing, believing repetinig confessing and being baptized earn nothing either.

So recieving grace is CONDITIONAL upon man having faith not faith only. A biblical faith includes repentance, confession and baptism for remission of sins. Faith only CANNOT save the impenitent, the one who dinies Christ and the one who is in his unremitted sins. So if anyone desries t argue faith onlysavies then they ned to be prepared to argue that the impenitent, the denier of Christ the one still lost in his unremitted sins can be saved.

Naaman is not an isolated case. God had Israel CONDITIONALLY march around the Jericho whereas the walls then would fall, Jer 6.
It was by God's grace those in the ship with Paul would be saved if they CONDTIONALLY remain in the ship, Acts 27:24 > 31
Jesus, by grace, spat upon the ground making a salve for the blind man, but the blind man had to CONDITIONLLY go and wash his eyes in the pool to receive his sight.

You post "..."Valid works are not possible without salvation" which is putting the cart before the horse, backwards from the way the bible has it.

You have one saved BEFORE he does obedient works, in other words, you have one saved:

before he does the work of believing > saved while in unbelief
before he does the work of repenting > saved while impenitent
before he deos the work of conffessing Christ > saved while a denier of Christ
before he does the work of submitting to water baptism > saved while still lost in unremitted sins.
While you are focusing on faith so much, it might interest you to learn a few facts about it. First of all, faith is not the thing that qualifies one for salvation. I'm sure you are happy to hear this. But I want to turn the attention away from all these technicalities and simply remind you that God gives grace to the humble, and resists the proud. This whole debate about faith alone or faith with obedience, misses the mark. Faith is merely a method of receiving. That is what we are discussing; the method.

The thing that is being received is the free gift of life. I use the word 'free', first because the bible uses it, and second, to emphasize that whatever hoops you are promoting, they cannot annul the fact that life is a gift from God. The very first requirement therefore, is to actually understand this fact and accept it.
Like I shared earlier, technicalities are used in religion to keep people in guilt or to prevent them from receiving. But God in His infinite and accurate knowledge of each person's heart, isn't interested in denying life on the basis of a technicality. Humans may think on these terms, but the bible has shown us the heart of God, that He is far more just than we are. He cuts to the heart of each individual, and is looking for humility. He gives grace to the humble.

The fact is, a man can obey God in pride, thinking that he is earning grace. A mere outward action may well fool men, but it does not fool God. He is not impressed with mere outward signs. People can perform, jump hoops, go through whatever excercise they have been told to go through, including baptism, but the reality is that it takes humility to accept a free gift.

There is an example of this in Luke 18:10-14. The man who went away justified was he who confessed his sin and asked for mercy. There was no water baptism mentioned in that passage. Neither was there one in the case of the theif on the cross next to Jesus. Don't get caught up in technicalities, my friend. Grace transcends many obstacles. This is why Paul was able to say what he said about salvation in Rom.10:9,10. There is no water baptism mentioned. Neither is there repentance mentioned. Neither are there works mentioned. What is mentioned is that .."..with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" , and " with the heart one believes to righteousness" . I prefer to submit to the bible on this one and forsake the traditions of men.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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williemac said:
While you are focusing on faith so much, it might interest you to learn a few facts about it. First of all, faith is not the thing that qualifies one for salvation. I'm sure you are happy to hear this. But I want to turn the attention away from all these technicalities and simply remind you that God gives grace to the humble, and resists the proud. This whole debate about faith alone or faith with obedience, misses the mark. Faith is merely a method of receiving. That is what we are discussing; the method.

The thing that is being received is the free gift of life. I use the word 'free', first because the bible uses it, and second, to emphasize that whatever hoops you are promoting, they cannot annul the fact that life is a gift from God. The very first requirement therefore, is to actually understand this fact and accept it.
Like I shared earlier, technicalities are used in religion to keep people in guilt or to prevent them from receiving. But God in His infinite and accurate knowledge of each person's heart, isn't interested in denying life on the basis of a technicality. Humans may think on these terms, but the bible has shown us the heart of God, that He is far more just than we are. He cuts to the heart of each individual, and is looking for humility. He gives grace to the humble.

The fact is, a man can obey God in pride, thinking that he is earning grace. A mere outward action may well fool men, but it does not fool God. He is not impressed with mere outward signs. People can perform, jump hoops, go through whatever excercise they have been told to go through, including baptism, but the reality is that it takes humility to accept a free gift.

There is an example of this in Luke 18:10-14. The man who went away justified was he who confessed his sin and asked for mercy. There was no water baptism mentioned in that passage. Neither was there one in the case of the theif on the cross next to Jesus. Don't get caught up in technicalities, my friend. Grace transcends many obstacles. This is why Paul was able to say what he said about salvation in Rom.10:9,10. There is no water baptism mentioned. Neither is there repentance mentioned. Neither are there works mentioned. What is mentioned is that .."..with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" , and " with the heart one believes to righteousness" . I prefer to submit to the bible on this one and forsake the traditions of men.
You post "First of all, faith is not the thing that qualifies one for salvation"

Salvation is not possible without faith. Faith is just as essential to salvation as God's grace. God's grace without man's faith cannot save and man's faith without God's grace cannot save. So faith is THE qualifier to receive grace/salvation. Are you are willing to argue one can be saved while faithless?


You then post "The thing that is being received is the free gift of life. I use the word 'free', first because the bible uses it..."

But is this free gift received without having the qualifier of faith? NO!

The word "free" therefore does not get rid of the qualifier "faith" but "free" INCLUDES it. A thing can be free yet still come with conditions. Again, Naaman received a "free gift" from God for his cleansing but that free gift came with the condition, the qualifier he go and dip in the river 7 times.

Calling an obedient faith a "technicality" does not help your argument. Was Naaman dipping in the river a "technicality" or a NECESSITY in receiving God's healing free gift? It was a necessity not a "technicality". No dipping = not receiving the free gift. So the dipping was essential in receivng the free gift.


A man may think he can do works of merit and earn God's free gift, but he will think wrong. But a man who thinks he must do God's righteousness, Rom 10:3, that is, obey God's will/commandments to receive the free gift is correct. For again, the free gift comes with the essential condition/qualifier of having an obedient faith.


You post "but the reality is that it takes humility to accept a free gift"

So there is no "qualifier" of having faith to receive this free gift? Just be humble to receive this gift? If an atheist was a humble person would he receive this free gift in his faithlessness?

Lk 18:10-14 occured while the OT law was still in effect, BEFORE CHrist's NT law came into effect. So he, like the thief, is NOT an example of NT salvation.
 

kjw47

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Jesus himself taught----- Those who do the will of my Father in heaven will enter his kingdom( be saved) ( Matt 7:21)--- this is the bottom line of it all. There is a whole bible filled with Gods will.
 

IBeMe

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Ernest T. Bass: 'Faith only' has no role in salvation at all.
"Faith" is a noun. Nouns don't do anything.

Grammatically and Biblically; "Faith" without action (works) means nothing happened, nouns don't do anything.

As Paul says, faith without good works is reprobate.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Either you do works of obedience, or works of disobedience.

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

There's no neutral ground; the self-effort action of ignoring God is a "work".

Christ's doctrine; "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


.
 
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williemac

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IBeMe said:
As Paul says, faith without good works is reprobate.
Please show us the reference where Paul makes this statement.

Ernest T. Bass said:
You post "First of all, faith is not the thing that qualifies one for salvation"

Salvation is not possible without faith. Faith is just as essential to salvation as God's grace. God's grace without man's faith cannot save and man's faith without God's grace cannot save. So faith is THE qualifier to receive grace/salvation. Are you are willing to argue one can be saved while faithless?
Your comments merely show that you are not using the language the same way I am using it. I never said faith is not required. I said it is not the qualification. You are confusing the two. In your reply, just replace "qualification" with 'requirement' and you will be on the same page as me.

For example, a license is required if one wants to drive. But if he is 12 years old, he does not qualify to drive or to have a license. You see the difference?

The bible says God gives grace to the humble. Since we are saved by grace, then humility is required to qualify us for grace. But then how do we receive the grace? By way of faith. That is what "by faith" means. Faith therefore, is a method. It is like going somewhere "by car" or "by jet".

Grace is that which gives a free gift. Faith is what is used to accept and receive the gift. In Paul's letters, he compares faith against works. The driving force behind works/salvation is pride, or self righteousness. The driving force behind faith/salvation is humility. God resists the proud. That is why Paul said..." lest anyone should boast". Grace should not be considered a "reward" for anything. It is an offer of a gift. There is more than one reason to not want or not accept a gift. Pride is one of them. God will not give the gift to one who is attempting to earn it...."lest he should boast".

It takes humility to realize that one does not deserve what he is getting, and therefore is forced to take it as a gift of charity. The role of the law was/is to bring a person to this realization. The law reveals sin. This principle is crucial in understanding subjects such as this one. This is a stronghold. It reflects the original sin of Lucifer, who exalted himself above or equal to God. In the same way, God is the originator of life. We are not. Life is not ours to produce. It is ours to receive. We are simply called to bear the fruit of it.

Therefore I stand by what I said....... valid works (fruit) are not possible without salvation (first). To simplify it, life comes first, then the fruit of it is evidence of its existence. Therefore, works do not lead to life. They reveal it's existence. It is an offense to this truth to reverse the two.
 

Floyd

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Faith

Faith; what is the meaning of the word? What do people understand when they read the word, and what is its effect when applied? It is worth examining the concept prior to looking into Scripture and its references and purpose there.

The Oxford English Dictionary has 4 definitions:

1) Complete trust or confidence.

2) Firm belief, especially without logical proof.

3) a A system of religious belief [the Christian faith]. b belief in religious doctrines. c spiritual apprehension of divine truth apart from proof. d things believed or to be believed.

4) Duty or commitment to fulfil a trust, promise, etc.; obligation, allegiance (keep faith).

Wikipedia:

Faith is confidence or trust in a person, thing, deity, or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion or view (e.g. having strong political faith). It can also be belief that is not based on proof.[1] The word faith is often used as a substitute for hope, trust or belief.

In religion, faith often involves accepting claims about the character of a deity, nature, or the universe. While some have argued that faith is opposed to reason, proponents of faith argue that the proper domain of faith concerns questions which cannot be settled by evidence.

As is seen above, faith and trust are intertwined, with many variations running from those concepts, giving different shades of meaning.

It must be stated that there is massive misapplication by people in their use and giving of trust (faith), as it is given by dint of mental exertion and decision. Also, in human interactions, there is the element always present of the "fallen nature" which in the case of the "pure" use of the understanding, does not exist!

Thankfully therefore the definition for Biblical understanding is not complicated, although profound in its depth.

Genesis 2:16 and 17 gives the first example of conferred trust from God to Adam, when God gave Adam his first instruction, for Adam to trust and obey (have faith in), which was the foundation for his existence in Eden.

Many people and organizations consider the Biblical account of the creation of man and this present world scene to be a myth of human construction because of the scientifically determined age of the Earth; for more on this subject see: Age of the Earth Controversy: (Separate study)

We know that trust was broken by a series of events orchestrated by a third party to Adam and Eve; namely Satan, who successfully manoeuvred Eve by false quotation from God's Word to take of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil; (Gen. 3:1-7). That event, which illustrates the breakdown of the trust (faith) between Adam and God, was achieved by Adam's complicity with Eve, and was undertaken in his free will. That free will decision by Adam was the only way that God's bond with Adam could be broken; as Satan has also free will, which he used prior to this present human creation to rebel against God when he was God's highest creature with special blessing and power, see: Satan's origins; (Separate study)

Many people and groups have discussed endlessly how Eve managed to break Adam's bond/faith with God, with many theories presented. It is clear that Satan's priority was to achieve Adam's fall from grace with God, as he was the one with whom the first instructions and relationship with God transpired; which relationship was active daily between the two (Gen.3:8-12). For a quick understanding of the writers opinion regarding this breakdown see: Eve and Adam (Separate study)

There is clearly a fierce conflict between Almighty God and Satan, which is focused on the human race at present, and which entails Satan's challenge against God's benevolent supremacy as Almighty Creator, and the winning by Satan of as many humans as possible to emulate his success in heaven (Rev.12:4). Satan appeared to achieve a major victory in Eden by the early fall of Eve and Adam in that early stage of God's new human creation. However, even at that early stage a promise was made by God of a provision He was making for the defeat of Satan and all his efforts to defeat God by perversion of the human race, in Gen.3:15: "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; It shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel"! This profound statement/promise is embodied in the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ; who is at present sitting at the right hand of God in heaven.

Satan at present is trying to stop people worldwide from understanding the gift of Salvation in Christ Jesus, as that effort if successful would be a major defeat for God Almighty's plan for the formation of the "Body of Christ"; Eph.5:30. That Body when complete has a definite number of members; which after its completion, is likely to leave the earth!

Satan's other major effort in the past, present, and particularly in the future, is to destroy completely the people of Israel; and in so doing to negate the promise made by God to His people of Israel that they will never cease to be a people on the earth (Jer. 31:35-37).

As has been seen, the principle of faith/trust between God and man was shown to be important to God at the inception of His first human of this present creation; Adam. Satan, knowing the importance of this, worked against that relationship desire by God, and continues to do so. He continues to look for ways to eventually defeat all of God's benevolent plans for His created beings, both human and spiritual, and is allowed to do so for a period of time; see Job Chp. 1 and 2. See also: Satan's Motivation: (Separate study)

In the period up to the Flood, the faith principle showed in Abel and his offering to God (Gen.4:4 and Heb.11:4). Also Enoch (Gen.5:24), as God took him prior to death, due to his faith/trust in Him (Heb.11:5), and that "he pleased God". Enoch was a prophet, and prophesied in faith; by Divine instruction (Rom.10:17). Also Noah (Gen.6:14 and Heb.11:7) who in faith built an ark on God's instructions on what seemed an impossible mission!

After the Flood, Abraham who "trusted God" and that faith was counted unto him as righteousness (Gen.15:6). By faith (through much doubting) Sara Abram's wife produced a child in her extreme old age (Gen.18:11 and Gen.21:1-7). Hebrews 11 goes on to witness to many other men and women of faith, including Rahab the harlot, who trusted in the God of the Jews!

In all of these examples, and countless others in history, God shows His love for those who have faith/trust in Him, and seek after Him; (Heb. 11:6 ). The great Apostle Paul gives lucid account of the faith principle in his letter to the Hebrews Chp.11, prior to their relegation to "Lo-Ammi" (not my people), at Acts 28:28.

What then is the position of the world's population now in the 21st century relative to God's will? Simply put, He asks that people examine what He has recorded in the Bible, and to make a decision as to the truth of what is said regarding Himself, and Jesus Christ! If a person believes what God says, they will inherit eternal life at the time of the resurrection of the Body of believers in the future. All that is needed is that the decision is made for Jesus the Christ in the heart and mind of the person; they are then sealed in heaven until the resurrection! There is no need for any Ceremonials, or even water baptism to secure this great salvation and eternal life; it is a private affair between the individual and God in Christ! Water baptism is undertaken by many new Christians, and it is a good way of witnessing to the world the new state of the person, but it is not an essential to secure salvation, as is taught by some Groups. The person's faith is then "counted unto them as righteousness" in Jesus Christ, in the same way as the examples given above. There is though still the problem of the rest of a person's life's wrongdoings, which are inevitable in varying degrees as the great Apostle Paul bemoaned of himself. This is dealt with in: Faithfulness and The Christian.htm (Separate study)

From all the foregoing, it will be seen that the original fall of Eve and Adam was manoeuvred into being by a supernatural entity; Satan, but he did not force Eve, she made the decision herself to partake of the forbidden fruit! Many have said that Adam and Eve were more the victims rather than retrograde, and yes there is that element in the narrative. However, Eve and woefully Adam made a decision despite their close relationship with God; and broke faith with Him! Almighty God in His wisdom, at that critical stage gave the promise of the solution in Gen.3:15, which refers to Jesus Christ, "the second Adam" (1 Cor. 15:22, 45.) This was to be (and became) the supernatural antidote to Satan's work in Eden, and was/is the element that was not possible for fallen man to provide, due to him being fallen flesh and subject to death, as opposed to the Creator God taking on Satan Himself; incarnate as Jesus the Christ (Messiah), as The superior supernatural being, (but completely human for the duration of the task, Phil.2:7-11); the ant-thesis to Satan. However; the last link in the formulation has to be that which Eve and Adam lost, people must decide for themselves to accept or reject God's Salvation in Christ; which when done in the positive completes the antidote against Satan, and faith is restored between man and God. However; as in Eden, God presents the truth (Jesus Christ); but does not force the decision, it must be made by the person in their God given freewill, for that person to individually undo the final link for them of Satan's treachery and lies!

The person is then "saved" (Eph.2:8), and "sealed" (Eph.1:13), in heavenly places, for future "glory" in a new "body" (Phil.3:21); by their faith and trust in Him!





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IBeMe

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williemac: Please show us the reference where Paul makes this statement.
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Scripture was posted? ... Need glasses?


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williemac: qualification
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We're justified, made free of sin, by faith in Jesus.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

covenant - a signed written agreement between two or more parties (nations) to perform some action

We enter the covenant by grace (A favor rendered by one who need not do so; indulgence), free.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

If the covenantee fails to abide by the terms of the covenant, the covenantor is released from all obligation to perform the promise of the covenant.


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williemac: Therefore, works do not lead to life.
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Deliberately breaking the terms of the covenant, keepeth my works unto the end, is an act of disqualification on the part of the covenantee; releasing the covenantor of all responsibility.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


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williemac: The driving force behind works/salvation is pride, or self righteousness.
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As Paul says, faith without good works is reprobate.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


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williemac: Therefore, works do not lead to life. They reveal it's existence. It is an offense to this truth to reverse the two.
-------


But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

.
I
 

logabe

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Aug 28, 2008
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This is just another simple subject that can be confusing when a person doesn't understand the
purpose and plan of God. Now this is how easy it is when you allow the Holy Ghost to burn up
your manmade doctrines that have you in spiritual bondage. Babal can have a field day in a forum
of half truth.

Paul said, we are saved by GRACE... period. In other words, God blows His Spirit upon an individual
and that person responds to His call. My question is... who made the first move? If God doesn't make
that first move... you will stay right where you are. You are SAVED by GRACE period.

Yes but... what about faith? I'm glad you ask. Notice the order Paul used... GRACE, FAITH, WORKS.

Faith is about pleasing God. Without faith it is impossible to please him. Paul said, faith is a gift from
God... so don't try to take credit for a gift that God has given. Does it excite God when you use the
faith that God has given you? Sure it does, but if God doesn't give you that gift it will be impossible to
please him or (do his works). Yes... we are saved by Grace, through faith, but God has initiated all of
the provisions to be saved.

Now we can understand why Paul said "not by works" lest any man should boast. Paul is saying, God
gives you grace to be saved, through the faith that he has given you, which produces God's Works, not
ours, and now we can realize that without God's coercion we will not believe or do the works of God.

Do we need to repent? Yes!!! Do we need to be baptized? Yes!!! Do we need to receive the Holy Ghost?
Yes, yes, and yes!!! My point is, these things aren't possible without God's Grace being shed upon us to
enlighten us, through faith, to the things pertaining to salvation (Acts 2:38).

Once God's Spirit begins to work with an individual, he/she begins to use their faith to gain knowledge of
the Kingdom of God. Someone will tell them to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall
be saved. Later on as that person begins to use his faith, God will send someone to tell him about the
Holy Ghost. Some Christians accept it, but due to a particular denomination that doesn't believe that a
Christian can have an experience beyond Passover, that individual may reject an invitation to use their faith
to receive the power of the Holy Ghost.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of the Lord. The enemy, (carnal mind) will tell you... is that really what
God said? Sounds familiar? Then someone will come and confirm what the carnal mind has told you. Does
that sound familiar? The Word of God will be taken in a moment out of your heart. It is much easier to
believe the carnal mind, because the carnal mind feeds off of your flesh. In other words, it entices you to be
be complacent and disobedient to the Word of God.

That's what the Pentecostal experience ( receiving the Holy Ghost) is all about. Jesus said, when the Comforter
(Holy Ghost) comes, he will teach you all things, but if the carnal mind can divert you from receiving the power
of the Holy Ghost, it makes his job a lot easier to deal with you. Why? Because you have no power to resist the
things of the flesh. Does that unsave you? No! You were saved by Grace. What it does is keeps you from
inheriting the (Kingdom of God) which is, the 1st Resurrection (Rev. 20:6).

When you allow God through the Spirit to change your works to His Works, you will then be chosen by God to be
a king and a priest in the next Age. But if you choose to do it your way by not submitting and humbling yourself
to the Word of the Lord through faith, then you will have to await the 2nd Resurrection after the Tabernacles Age.

You will be saved, but like as by fire ( 1st Cor. 3:15). In other words, you will be saved from the wrath to come,
but you will give up the reward of being a king in God's Kingdom ( Rev. 3:21). The bottom line is, if we neglect so
great a gift, we will suffer loss. Now... once we understand the plan... then we are saved by HOPE.

What do you mean? I mean once you have gained knowledge through the Spirit and have overcome all of the
obstacles of the carnal mind by God's Spirit, then that will place HOPE inside of you to continue and wait through
faith for the Plan of God to be completed ( Rom. 8:24).

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

Ernest T. Bass

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
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williemac said:
Your comments merely show that you are not using the language the same way I am using it. I never said faith is not required. I said it is not the qualification. You are confusing the two. In your reply, just replace "qualification" with 'requirement' and you will be on the same page as me.

For example, a license is required if one wants to drive. But if he is 12 years old, he does not qualify to drive or to have a license. You see the difference?

The bible says God gives grace to the humble. Since we are saved by grace, then humility is required to qualify us for grace. But then how do we receive the grace? By way of faith. That is what "by faith" means. Faith therefore, is a method. It is like going somewhere "by car" or "by jet".

Grace is that which gives a free gift. Faith is what is used to accept and receive the gift. In Paul's letters, he compares faith against works. The driving force behind works/salvation is pride, or self righteousness. The driving force behind faith/salvation is humility. God resists the proud. That is why Paul said..." lest anyone should boast". Grace should not be considered a "reward" for anything. It is an offer of a gift. There is more than one reason to not want or not accept a gift. Pride is one of them. God will not give the gift to one who is attempting to earn it...."lest he should boast".

It takes humility to realize that one does not deserve what he is getting, and therefore is forced to take it as a gift of charity. The role of the law was/is to bring a person to this realization. The law reveals sin. This principle is crucial in understanding subjects such as this one. This is a stronghold. It reflects the original sin of Lucifer, who exalted himself above or equal to God. In the same way, God is the originator of life. We are not. Life is not ours to produce. It is ours to receive. We are simply called to bear the fruit of it.

Therefore I stand by what I said....... valid works (fruit) are not possible without salvation (first). To simplify it, life comes first, then the fruit of it is evidence of its existence. Therefore, works do not lead to life. They reveal it's existence. It is an offense to this truth to reverse the two.
Faith is the qualification man must meet to be saved. How can faith NOT be a qualification, yet be required at the same time?

One can be 50 years old and qualify age-wise for a license. Even though he is 50, he is still required to have a license to drive. But if he has no license then he still does not qualify to drive even though his age qualifies him.

Faith is required for salvation. A person mature enough in understanding and knowledge can have faith but he does not qualify for salvation without faith. So faith is not only a requirement but an essential qualification to be saved.


I agree humility is a qualification to receive grace, faith is also therefore humililty must be part of a saving faith.


You posted "The driving force behind works/salvation is pride, or self righteousness"

But there is not a single bible verse that says that. Obedient works as belief and repentance are commanded by God to man, so you are essentially saying God has comanded man tobe prideful and self-righteous? One who does the work of belieivng is prideful and self-righteous?

In Rom 10:1-3 Paul laments over the fact his brothers in the flesh, fleshly Israel, is lost and the reason they are lost is they would not "submit unto the righteousness of God", that is they would not obey God's commandments yet you say they would be prideful and self-righteous if they did as Paul said they should do to be saved. In Acts 10:35 Peter said those that "worketh righteousness" are accepted with God. You say they are prideful and self-righteous.

Lk 17:10 does NOT say "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are prideful and self-righteous"

Lk 17:10 DOES say "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."

So even though one obeys God's will he is still an unprofitable servant. What is prideful and self-righteous about being an unprofitable servant?? If one does not do all those things commanded by God he is a lost disobedient sinner that has been derelict in what was his duty to do. If one does those things that are commanded him, he is still in need of grace for he cannot keep those comandments perfectly, he is still an unprofitable servant in need of grace. BUt there is no grace at all for those that do not obey those things commanded...."And being made perfect, he (Christ) became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" Heb 5:9 Does this verse say Christ became the author of salvation unto all them that "are prideful and self-righteous"?










You post "..valid works (fruit) are not possible without salvation (first). "

Please produce for me the verse(s) that says one is saved first in his disobedience then obeys, is obediently AFTER he is saved.

That is, show me a verse that says one is saved BEFORE he obediently believes, BEFORE he obediently repents of his sins, BEFORE he obediently confesses CHrist, BEFORE he obediently submits to water baptism.

In other words, show me the verse(s) that says the unbeliever, impenitnet, denier of Christ in his unremitted sins is saved.
kjw47 said:
Jesus himself taught----- Those who do the will of my Father in heaven will enter his kingdom( be saved) ( Matt 7:21)--- this is the bottom line of it all. There is a whole bible filled with Gods will.
There are those here arguing that if you do the will of the Father you are being prideful and self-righteous.
IBeMe said:
"Faith" is a noun. Nouns don't do anything.

Grammatically and Biblically; "Faith" without action (works) means nothing happened, nouns don't do anything.

As Paul says, faith without good works is reprobate.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Either you do works of obedience, or works of disobedience.

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

There's no neutral ground; the self-effort action of ignoring God is a "work".

Christ's doctrine; "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


.
Car is a noun. Do cars not do anything?

Gal 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Here we have a faith working. A faith (noun) that does not work is a dead noun that cannot save.


The bible ties faith to works so closely that faith is a work...a saving faith is a work. So nouns can do work, can do actions.

You post "Either you do works of obedience, or works of disobedience"

I agree.

Paul said in Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

So we all serve either one of two masters. We serve either:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness

I serve (2) obedience unto righteousness. Those that follow the "faith only" doctrine, that man-made doctrine has eliminated serving #2 for them leaving them with a very bad master to serve at #1


Note also Paul said obedience unto RIGHTEOUSNESS and not obedience unto pride and self-righteousness.
Floyd said:
Faith

Faith; what is the meaning of the word? What do people understand when they read the word, and what is its effect when applied? It is worth examining the concept prior to looking into Scripture and its references and purpose there.

The Oxford English Dictionary has 4 definitions:

1) Complete trust or confidence.

2) Firm belief, especially without logical proof.

3) a A system of religious belief [the Christian faith]. b belief in religious doctrines. c spiritual apprehension of divine truth apart from proof. d things believed or to be believed.

4) Duty or commitment to fulfil a trust, promise, etc.; obligation, allegiance (keep faith).
4) Duty or commitment to fulfil a trust, promise, etc.; obligation, allegiance (keep faith).


Faith is certainly not just a mental assent of the mind.
 

IBeMe

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Jun 17, 2013
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logabe : What a Plan!
You left the doctrine of Christ out of the plan.

Only for those that are worthy.

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

We enter the covenant by Grace, free.

If the covenantee breaks the terms of the covenant, then the covenantor (God) is released from all obligation to deliver the promise of the covenant.

Terms of the covenant: Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

We will be judged by the words of Jesus; The Word of God.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The kingdom of heaven is only for those that actually do what God says, no pretenders.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy ...

.
 

Ernest T. Bass

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
1,942
629
113
out in the woods
logabe said:
This is just another simple subject that can be confusing when a person doesn't understand the
purpose and plan of God. Now this is how easy it is when you allow the Holy Ghost to burn up
your manmade doctrines that have you in spiritual bondage. Babal can have a field day in a forum
of half truth.

Paul said, we are saved by GRACE... period. In other words, God blows His Spirit upon an individual
and that person responds to His call. My question is... who made the first move? If God doesn't make
that first move... you will stay right where you are. You are SAVED by GRACE period.

Yes but... what about faith? I'm glad you ask. Notice the order Paul used... GRACE, FAITH, WORKS.

Faith is about pleasing God. Without faith it is impossible to please him. Paul said, faith is a gift from
God... so don't try to take credit for a gift that God has given. Does it excite God when you use the
faith that God has given you? Sure it does, but if God doesn't give you that gift it will be impossible to
please him or (do his works). Yes... we are saved by Grace, through faith, but God has initiated all of
the provisions to be saved.

Now we can understand why Paul said "not by works" lest any man should boast. Paul is saying, God
gives you grace to be saved, through the faith that he has given you, which produces God's Works, not
ours, and now we can realize that without God's coercion we will not believe or do the works of God.

Do we need to repent? Yes!!! Do we need to be baptized? Yes!!! Do we need to receive the Holy Ghost?
Yes, yes, and yes!!! My point is, these things aren't possible without God's Grace being shed upon us to
enlighten us, through faith, to the things pertaining to salvation (Acts 2:38).

Once God's Spirit begins to work with an individual, he/she begins to use their faith to gain knowledge of
the Kingdom of God. Someone will tell them to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall
be saved. Later on as that person begins to use his faith, God will send someone to tell him about the
Holy Ghost. Some Christians accept it, but due to a particular denomination that doesn't believe that a
Christian can have an experience beyond Passover, that individual may reject an invitation to use their faith
to receive the power of the Holy Ghost.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of the Lord. The enemy, (carnal mind) will tell you... is that really what
God said? Sounds familiar? Then someone will come and confirm what the carnal mind has told you. Does
that sound familiar? The Word of God will be taken in a moment out of your heart. It is much easier to
believe the carnal mind, because the carnal mind feeds off of your flesh. In other words, it entices you to be
be complacent and disobedient to the Word of God.

That's what the Pentecostal experience ( receiving the Holy Ghost) is all about. Jesus said, when the Comforter
(Holy Ghost) comes, he will teach you all things, but if the carnal mind can divert you from receiving the power
of the Holy Ghost, it makes his job a lot easier to deal with you. Why? Because you have no power to resist the
things of the flesh. Does that unsave you? No! You were saved by Grace. What it does is keeps you from
inheriting the (Kingdom of God) which is, the 1st Resurrection (Rev. 20:6).

When you allow God through the Spirit to change your works to His Works, you will then be chosen by God to be
a king and a priest in the next Age. But if you choose to do it your way by not submitting and humbling yourself
to the Word of the Lord through faith, then you will have to await the 2nd Resurrection after the Tabernacles Age.

You will be saved, but like as by fire ( 1st Cor. 3:15). In other words, you will be saved from the wrath to come,
but you will give up the reward of being a king in God's Kingdom ( Rev. 3:21). The bottom line is, if we neglect so
great a gift, we will suffer loss. Now... once we understand the plan... then we are saved by HOPE.

What do you mean? I mean once you have gained knowledge through the Spirit and have overcome all of the
obstacles of the carnal mind by God's Spirit, then that will place HOPE inside of you to continue and wait through
faith for the Plan of God to be completed ( Rom. 8:24).

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
Paul NEVER said we are saved by grace...period.

In EPh 2:8 for example, Paul said they were saved by grace through faith. So salvation requires both God's grace and man's faith. "Grace alone" does not save nor does "faith alone" ssve, it takes BOTH together.

Paul says in Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

Man's faith is what gives him access to God's grace therefore no faith = no grace.


No where does Paul say "God blows His Spirit upon an individual and that person responds to His call."

Notice in Rom 10:13-16 that one must first have hear the word (a preacher preaches the word, ones hears), then upon hearing one can believe then one can call upon the name of the Lord to be saved.

Note the order of things Paul has in Rom 6:17,18:

first, they were servants of sins
Secondly, they then obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
Lastly, then they were freed from sin (justified)

The man-made faith only teaching tries to re-arrange the order by putting justification BEFORE obeying from the heart.

You post "Paul said, faith is a gift from God..."


In Rom 10:17 Paul said faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.


Faith would be a gift only in the sense God has allowed man to have faith. Faith is not something God randomly gives to some and withholds from others. If that were the case then God has fault and blame for those that are faithless. Again, from R0m 10:13-16 one must first hear, then believe, then call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. Paul said i Rom 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Faith comes from within the heart, it is something one chooses to have not something randomly given by God apart from hearing the word.