SALVATION OF ANIMALS

[Cassandra]

Well animals have no immortal soul.

And I agree a mans soul is that immaterial part of Him. Our conscience and intellect and what makes man-man. It is our spirit that is made alive at salvation.

The Bible says that God alone has immortality I tim 6:16
who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.


and eternal life is a gift. John 3:16 "whosever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. This shows some will perish.

 

[Peterlag]

A saved man is trichotomous, an unsaved man is dichotomous

Saved man has a body, soul and quickened spirit. Unsaved man only has a body and soul and dead spirit.

OT, yes souls went to teh underworld when the body went to the ground. They went to hell/sheol/hades.

Saved went to paradise/Abrahams bosom. Unsaved to the place of torments. Because Jesus had not actually shed HIs blood and poured it out on the heavenly mercy seat. But since His ascension, saved individuals, bodies go to ground and spirit and soul go to be with the Lord as Paul declared.

Just when I thought you may have had something right. And then you come up with this. Give me the verse where Paul said the soul goes to be with the Lord. If such a concept was true then what are the dead? What's in the grave.

1.) Body rots
2.) Soul goes to God
3.) Spirit goes to God

Then what gets up when Christ returns? Feel free to give the verse that Paul declared.

 

[marks]

I dont see what you see in Genesis at all. 6 day and rested the 7th.

To me, the answer is here:

Exodus 20:11 KJV
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The Sabbath is a 24 hour day, the others are also.

I’m not “dog”matic about this suggestion. God may have another way to solve this problem that is far beyond what I now imagine! I know God will do what is best. Someday soon we will know for sure when we see Him (and our pets and other animals?) face to face in heaven! In that day, “there will no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away!” (Rev. 21:4, NASB).

Not dog-matic??

I don't see a clear answer to this in the Bible. To me it seems that many animals (my cat Tiger) have really good souls, but no spirit, and therefore, when they die, they are gone. But I'd be perfectly happy to be mistaken in this. And I do think the best answer is, if you want them, you will have them, I like that!!

Much love!

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm almost with you on this one. All except the part of angels having sex with women. I think I will read Genesis 6. Stay right here in case I come back with a question.

The Bible tells us about these things…..what did you read in Genesis 6?

In the Scriptures, angels had the ability to manifest in bodies of flesh…they ate and drank what was offered to them and they were dressed in the normal clothing of the day, so no wings tucked under their garments.
The rebel angels who had joined satan, materialized human form to live in carnal flesh on the earth.

When these “sons of God” saw the “daughters of men”, they desired them in a carnal way and took them to have sexual relations with them, (“all whom they chose”) producing hybrid offspring that were gigantic in size, and violent and licentious in nature. They were called the “Nephilim” (literally “fellers” of men, those who cause others to fall) These were the ones who caused havoc among the human race because of their extraordinary size and disposition, so mankind were corrupted by them because they could not oppose them.

This situation called for drastic action, and God told Noah what he was going to do about it, but ever wise in his far sightedness, he used this situation to foreshadow future events.

”For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.” (Matt 24:37-39)

By causing the earth to flood, God accomplish some very important things…..firstly his actions demonstrate the power of water….which can be both life saving and death dealing…..something we might never think about until it is brought to our attention.

Only land animals were affected by the flood…those who breathe air, like we do, (Gen 6:17).…but no sea creature was mentioned. God brought the animals to Noah for preservation of their species.

The Nephilim were humans but not sons of Adam, so they had no right to live. As air breathers, they would perish in the flood, but their errant fathers would also have perished if they had stayed in human form, so it forced them back to the spirit realm where God dealt with them too, by restraining them in a physical way. They were never said to materialize ever again, whilst faithful angels still brought messages to God’s earthly servants in human form.

An example of this is the angel Gabriel who appeared to Daniel some 500 years before his visit to Mary to inform her of her choosing to become the mother of Jesus.
Three angels appeared to Abraham at Mamre to inform him of Isaac’s birth, then two of them continued on to Sodom to rescue Lot and his family. On both occasions they were offered food and they ate. (Jesus did this too after his resurrection he ate some fish to prove that he wasn’t an apparition)

So the flood of Noah’s day was interesting from a few aspects…what is there about water that preserved the sea creatures but not the land dwellers and where did the water go when the flood subsided?

The Bible tells us that the water came from two places…under the earth which we know as aquifers and a water canopy that surrounded the earth at creation. It says that God separated the waters and the waters, (Gen 1:6) meaning that above the earth’s atmosphere was a body of water held in place by God’s power. (2 Pet 3:5-7)
What was the purpose of the water canopy? It was a form of climate control, giving the earth a uniform climate without the extremes of the seasons we now endure. (They have discovered palm trees in the ice bound areas of Siberia, buried in the ice for thousands of years)
In fact it says that it didn’t rain before the food, but a mist would rise from the moisture in the air and in the earth and water the surface of the ground. (Gen 2:6)

With the water canopy gone, dramatic climate change would have taken place, and with the poles being magnetic, and water subject to magnetic forces, this would have drawn the water up and snap frozen it, which would have created the polar ice caps. Climate Scientists tell us that if the polar ice caps were to melt, the earth would again be flooded.

So there is a brief rundown of what the Bible says about the situation in Noah’s day and the reason why God chose to flood the earth in response to the angel’s rebellion, not just man’s. The descent into wickedness was accelerated by the rebels and God basically reset everything and started again.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thank you for your thoughtful response…..

To me non-denominational means I can visit any church or body that invites me to visit without shame. To me it’s freedom that if for example I wanted to come with you to visit a Jehovah witness hall —non-denominational to me means I’m not restrained by a denomination that restricts me to “this is concrete and you can’t do or say anything other than what our denomination tells you to say and do.”

Can I ask why you would choose to enter a church that teaches what you disagree with?

If the criteria for genuine Christianity is what Paul mentions at 1 Cor 1:10….
”Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
How can you reconcile that admonition within a “hen house” that you know is occupied by “foxes?

Would Christ not provide a “hen house” where “foxes” are kept our? There are security guards at the door….

Christianity was one faith in the beginning…..but people from different faiths could join with those original Christians, but they had to leave all their own ideas from their former faith behind, not bringing aspects of it with them or waiting to promote their own ideas…that is what causes dissension...conflicting ideas….this is the mess that is Christendom!

Does God speak with a forked tongue? No! It’s his adversary who does that, and that is what identifies the counterfeit “Christianity” that was sown by him in the very early stages of the Christian faith. He did to Christianity, what he did to Judaism….he used corrupt men to introduce their own ideas. (Matt 15:7-9)

Jesus and his apostles warned that a “falling away” (apostasy) would take place, but it was not a recent occurrence….in fact they said it was already happening whilst they were still alive….
2 Thess 2:1-8…
“However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.“ (*2 Peter 3:10)

“3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. . . . .
6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way.
8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.“

“The lawless one” will be “revealed” by the fact that they are disunited, whilst claiming that they are all still “the body of Christ”. Christ cannot have a disunited body…..all will be revealed ”by the manifestation of his presence”…..in this judgment period. It is becoming more and more obvious that the church system is dying for lack of conviction and unity. There is no evidence of God’s uniting spirit.

1 Corinthians 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
^this reminds me of possessing all things, yet as poor making many rich.

Non-denominational… is it a title or removal of a restraining title of “southern Baptist”.
A title of I was raised this way, so that is where my bottom meets the pew? There is a lot of the southern Baptist ‘hellfire and brimstone’ teachings that was traumatizing for me a young girl…but still I would still go visit a southern Baptist church. I just don’t want to pledge my allegiance to their doctrine.

Paul here, I believe, was telling us to be adaptable so as to reach the hearts of as many as possible.

Have you ever wondered why God does not manifest himself in more obvious ways to demonstrate his power and to make known in no uncertain terms, what he expects of his worshippers? Would that not be more persuasive?

I‘d be interested in your answer….

 

[Aunty Jane]

paul to me gives an example of “non-denominational” free of the doctrines of men but that is not to say free of the Doctrine of God. But instead Living it; his giving us an example of walking in the Spirit of Christ: 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. [20] And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; [21] To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. [22] To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. [23] And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Being free of the doctrines of men is impossible in Christendom….they are too busy arguing over doctrines to ever settle on one truth. But there can only be one, not many ‘versions’ of it.

The “wheat” exist in the world along with the “weeds” as Jesus said….and as this world’s end draws near, the difference between the two is becoming clearer and clearer…..”by their fruits”, Jesus said we would recognize his own…..what “fruits” are produced by a religious system doctrinally divided, politically divided (as we often see on these boards arguments over political differences)…..economically too, there are wide divisions between the church and their subjects……so in every way imaginable, they are not united.

Genuine Christians are “no part of the world” as Jesus said (John 17:16)….no part of its false religion, no part of its corrupt politics, or its greedy commercialism. It is satan’s world that promotes these things…..
A genuine Christian will not carry a weapon to use on other humans. He/she will not take part in a political war where the sanctity of human life is so devalued that killing innocent women and children becomes mere “collateral damage” In their hateful agenda. (Isa 1:15)

Too many people are brainwashed by patriotism from infancy to see past the hand on the heart devotion to a country and its flag, in the mistaken notion that God supports their bloodshed. God has not sanctioned a war since the days of ancient Israel when they had their God-given land to defend. No man’s “land” today is “God-given” because humans mostly stole their land from its original inhabitants with violence and much bloodshed. Would God support such things? Israel’s wars were always defensive…only ever offensive in claiming their God given land from the wicked Canaanites.
If they overstepped God’s authority, he abandoned them to their enemies in utter defeat.

God. It doesn’t change just because of being non-denominational. Or just because of no longer being defined as only southern Baptist? Does it?

Christianity should be defined by how closely we follow the teachings of the Christ…that means being “no part of this world”….or its conflicts. (John 18:36)

We are told to “Get out of Babylon the great” (Rev 18:4-5) How do we do that if we have no idea who or what “Babylon the great“ is? She is going down in a blaze of God’s anger because she masquerades as something she is not. All who cling to her, will go down with her.
What do you make of that?

I’ve had more “touchy subjects” raised since being non-denominational.

Do you ever resolve them? That is the question….

The fox is in the hen house.
To me it’s waking up to being sober and awake, watching

Yes indeed….that is why we have withdrawn from the “hen house” altogether…..we identified the “foxes” and refuse to keep company with them in the institutions that they have created. That doesn’t mean we don’t want to help the “hens”…..it is to them that Jesus has sent us….to rescue them from the foxes. (Matt 10:11-15)

do you not think the fox is in the hen house? What “house” do you think the fox wants to enter into to do the most damage from within, working inside out?

Yes, again I could not agree more…..the fox is really a wolf, who has disguised himself as a sheep….
But sheep and goats make a similar sound….unless you are familiar with both, you could mistake one for the other.

First…disarm them with drunkenness. That begins in the vessel where strange doctrines give birth. I’ve never seen a blindness so strong take hold of people, a drunkenness of high opinions and vain imaginations …it’s killing and usually …it’s that which is killing that claims it’s the watcher and protector of the whole. So convinced and high on the strong fumes of being drunk, that deception eats from the inside out. It can’t even see its the enemy within. And the whole keeps drinking it….coming together for the worse and not for the better.

Yep, which is why we need to study the Bible carefully for the things NOT taught in Christendom’s churches, and to identify the things that ARE taught, which are missing from Christendom’s teachings altogether…..

Like I have said many times….only God can lead us to the ‘diamond’ in that ‘pile of broken glass’. (John 6:44, 65)

 

[Peterlag]

The Bible tells us about these things…..what did you read in Genesis 6?

In the Scriptures, angels had the ability to manifest in bodies of flesh…they ate and drank what was offered to them and they were dressed in the normal clothing of the day, so no wings tucked under their garments.
The rebel angels who had joined satan, materialized human form to live in carnal flesh on the earth.

When these “sons of God” saw the “daughters of men”, they desired them in a carnal way and took them to have sexual relations with them, (“all whom they chose”) producing hybrid offspring that were gigantic in size, and violent and licentious in nature. They were called the “Nephilim” (literally “fellers” of men, those who cause others to fall) These were the ones who caused havoc among the human race because of their extraordinary size and disposition, so mankind were corrupted by them because they could not oppose them.

This situation called for drastic action, and God told Noah what he was going to do about it, but ever wise in his far sightedness, he used this situation to foreshadow future events.

”For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.” (Matt 24:37-39)

By causing the earth to flood, God accomplish some very important things…..firstly his actions demonstrate the power of water….which can be both life saving and death dealing…..something we might never think about until it is brought to our attention.

Only land animals were affected by the flood…those who breathe air, like we do, (Gen 6:17).…but no sea creature was mentioned. God brought the animals to Noah for preservation of their species.

The Nephilim were humans but not sons of Adam, so they had no right to live. As air breathers, they would perish in the flood, but their errant fathers would also have perished if they had stayed in human form, so it forced them back to the spirit realm where God dealt with them too, by restraining them in a physical way. They were never said to materialize ever again, whilst faithful angels still brought messages to God’s earthly servants in human form.

An example of this is the angel Gabriel who appeared to Daniel some 500 years before his visit to Mary to inform her of her choosing to become the mother of Jesus.
Three angels appeared to Abraham at Mamre to inform him of Isaac’s birth, then two of them continued on to Sodom to rescue Lot and his family. On both occasions they were offered food and they ate. (Jesus did this too after his resurrection he ate some fish to prove that he wasn’t an apparition)

So the flood of Noah’s day was interesting from a few aspects…what is there about water that preserved the sea creatures but not the land dwellers and where did the water go when the flood subsided?

The Bible tells us that the water came from two places…under the earth which we know as aquifers and a water canopy that surrounded the earth at creation. It says that God separated the waters and the waters, (Gen 1:6) meaning that above the earth’s atmosphere was a body of water held in place by God’s power. (2 Pet 3:5-7)
What was the purpose of the water canopy? It was a form of climate control, giving the earth a uniform climate without the extremes of the seasons we now endure. (They have discovered palm trees in the ice bound areas of Siberia, buried in the ice for thousands of years)
In fact it says that it didn’t rain before the food, but a mist would rise from the moisture in the air and in the earth and water the surface of the ground. (Gen 2:6)

With the water canopy gone, dramatic climate change would have taken place, and with the poles being magnetic, and water subject to magnetic forces, this would have drawn the water up and snap frozen it, which would have created the polar ice caps. Climate Scientists tell us that if the polar ice caps were to melt, the earth would again be flooded.

So there is a brief rundown of what the Bible says about the situation in Noah’s day and the reason why God chose to flood the earth in response to the angel’s rebellion, not just man’s. The descent into wickedness was accelerated by the rebels and God basically reset everything and started again.

1.) Wings tucked under the garments? Are we talking about angels or birds?
2.) Why the term "sons of God?"
3.) Can angels lust over a human?
4.) When an angel takes the form of a human... is he no longer an angel?
5.) There's a lot of water in that area. Causing a flood would not be hard.
6.) I'm one who believes that area was flooded. Not the entire Earth.

 

[Aunty Jane]

1.) Wings tucked under the garments? Are we talking about angels or birds?

Angels were often depicted with wings...how else would you convey flight to people whose only experience of flight was with birds?
If you recall, the angels/cherubs that adorned the ark of the covenant had outstretched wings. (1 Kings 8:6-7) Other accounts depict angels with wings.

2.) Why the term "sons of God?"

Angels were “sons of God” before the universe was created. (Job 38:4-7)

The “sons of God” were depicted in heaven with God. (Job 1:6) So clearly they are angels.

3.) Can angels lust over a human?

Apparently they have human appetites because they ate and drank what Abraham and Lot offered to them.
It’s the one thing humans can do, that angels cannot...reproduce from sexual activity. Since angels have no gender, it was no coincidence that they materialised as males, to enjoy the pleasures of being human without the inconvenience of a pregnancy.
It says plainly that these “sons of God” saw that “the daughters of men” were beautiful.....so yes, lust comes with the flesh. Since human males had always found females attractive, what was the point of that statement unless it was not normal?

4.) When an angel takes the form of a human... is he no longer an angel?

They are still spirit creatures as the faithful angels were.......these returned to the spirit realm when their assignment was finished. Gabriel’s visits in human form were 500 years apart.

5.) There's a lot of water in that area. Causing a flood would not be hard.

The Bible says that the earth was flooded. Why question that? Water always finds its own level so if it says that the water rose above the tallest mountains to a level of over 6 mtrs (almost 20 ft).....that is what it means.

Gen 7:17-24....
“The flooding continued for 40 days on the earth, and the waters kept increasing and began carrying the ark, and it was floating high above the earth. 18 The waters became overwhelming and kept increasing greatly upon the earth, but the ark floated on the surface of the waters. 19 The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains under the whole heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose up to 15 cubits above the mountains.

21 So all living creatures that were moving on the earth perished—the flying creatures, the domestic animals, the wild animals, the swarming creatures, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 So He wiped every living thing from the surface of the earth, including man, animals, creeping animals, and the flying creatures of the sky. They were all wiped off the earth; only Noah and those with him in the ark survived. 24 And the waters continued overwhelming the earth for 150 days.”

6.) I'm one who believes that area was flooded. Not the entire Earth.

Did you not read Genesis ch 7? This is not describing a local flood.....
You can’t put words in Jehovah’s mouth....he tells his own story......that’s why it is called “HIS-story”

 

[Peterlag]

Angels were often depicted with wings...how else would you convey flight to people whose only experience of flight was with birds?
If you recall, the angels/cherubs that adorned the ark of the covenant had outstretched wings. (1 Kings 8:6-7) Other accounts depict angels with wings.

Angels were “sons of God” before the universe was created. (Job 38:4-7)

The “sons of God” were depicted in heaven with God. (Job 1:6) So clearly they are angels.

Apparently they have human appetites because they ate and drank what Abraham and Lot offered to them.
It’s the one thing humans can do, that angels cannot...reproduce from sexual activity. Since angels have no gender, it was no coincidence that they materialised as males, to enjoy the pleasures of being human without the inconvenience of a pregnancy.
It says plainly that these “sons of God” saw that “the daughters of men” were beautiful.....so yes, lust comes with the flesh. Since human males had always found females attractive, what was the point of that statement unless it was not normal?

They are still spirit creatures as the faithful angels were.......these returned to the spirit realm when their assignment was finished. Gabriel’s visits in human form were 500 years apart.

The Bible says that the earth was flooded. Why question that? Water always finds its own level so if it says that the water rose above the tallest mountains to a level of over 6 mtrs (almost 20 ft).....that is what it means.

Gen 7:17-24....
“The flooding continued for 40 days on the earth, and the waters kept increasing and began carrying the ark, and it was floating high above the earth. 18 The waters became overwhelming and kept increasing greatly upon the earth, but the ark floated on the surface of the waters. 19 The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains under the whole heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose up to 15 cubits above the mountains.

21 So all living creatures that were moving on the earth perished—the flying creatures, the domestic animals, the wild animals, the swarming creatures, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 So He wiped every living thing from the surface of the earth, including man, animals, creeping animals, and the flying creatures of the sky. They were all wiped off the earth; only Noah and those with him in the ark survived. 24 And the waters continued overwhelming the earth for 150 days.”



Did you not read Genesis ch 7? This is not describing a local flood.....
You can’t put words in Jehovah’s mouth....he tells his own story......that’s why it is called “HIS-story”

Angels don't have wings. They don't sing either. This is Catholic stuff. Cherubims... The Godhead is presented at the same time with them, and uses them as the basis of His throne. They are never worshipped, but offer worship. Not the angels, there is no reason, evidence, or connection. They are distinguished from the angels in Revelation 5:8, 11, and 7:11. First they, and then the angels worship, and angels in Revelation 5 would scarcely be represented emblematically and literally in the same verse. They are never dismissed on any errand as angels are, but are ever attached to the throne. They are distinguished from the Church in Revelation 5:9, 10. Also distinguished in Revelation 7:9-11. Not in keeping with their presence in Eden, Tabernacle, and Temple. Not books, but living creatures giving worship. They are not symbols, but representatives.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Angels don't have wings. They don't sing either. This is Catholic stuff. Cherubims...

The “Catholic stuff” is cherubs depicted as babies.....not the mighty spirit creatures who are attendants on God’s throne (Seraphs) or the cherubs who were used in guardianship positions like those in the garden of Eden. Have you never read Ezekiel?
Angels are messengers, as the Bible describes them. All are spirit beings who have a unique place and position of service in God’s universal family.

The Godhead is presented at the same time with them, and uses them as the basis of His throne. They are never worshipped, but offer worship.

I never said they were worshipped. But they do a have rank and order in God’s heavenly arrangement.

Not the angels, there is no reason, evidence, or connection. They are distinguished from the angels in Revelation 5:8, 11, and 7:11. First they, and then the angels worship, and angels in Revelation 5 would scarcely be represented emblematically and literally in the same verse. They are never dismissed on any errand as angels are, but are ever attached to the throne. They are distinguished from the Church in Revelation 5:9, 10. Also distinguished in Revelation 7:9-11. Not in keeping with their presence in Eden, Tabernacle, and Temple. Not books, but living creatures giving worship. They are not symbols, but representatives.

I think you are running away with what I never said or implied....angelic beings are all “sons of God”...they have rank and order and differ from one another in service, responsibility and capacity......
Three types are mentioned in scripture.....Seraphs, Cherubs and Angels. All are spirit beings.....all dwell in heaven with their Creator....all have their assigned roles.
The angel who became satan was a cherub, according to Ezekiel. (Ezekiel 28:13-15)
Who said they were symbols?

I related that the cherubs used to decorate the ark of the covenant were depicted with wings......why are you arguing about that? (2 Chron 3:10-13)

 

[Peterlag]

The “Catholic stuff” is cherubs depicted as babies.....not the mighty spirit creatures who are attendants on God’s throne (Seraphs) or the cherubs who were used in guardianship positions like those in the garden of Eden. Have you never read Ezekiel?
Angels are messengers, as the Bible describes them. All are spirit beings who have a unique place and position of service in God’s universal family.

I never said they were worshipped. But they do a have rank and order in God’s heavenly arrangement.

I think you are running away with what I never said or implied....angelic beings are all “sons of God”...they have rank and order and differ from one another in service, responsibility and capacity......
Three types are mentioned in scripture.....Seraphs, Cherubs and Angels. All are spirit beings.....all dwell in heaven with their Creator....all have their assigned roles.
The angel who became satan was a cherub, according to Ezekiel. (Ezekiel 28:13-15)
Who said they were symbols?

I related that the cherubs used to decorate the ark of the covenant were depicted with wings......why are you arguing about that? (2 Chron 3:10-13)

Catholics believe angels sing and have wings. What would they do with wings? They are spirit beings. Not birds. I'm arguing that angels don't have wings. Jesus Christ is also now a spiritual being and he does not have wings either. I'm not running away with what you implied. You think spirits slept with human women and were able to get them pregnant. I don't know if I can buy that. What I could buy is devil spirits possessing the minds of men getting women pregnant. Or even those born again of the seed of the devil getting women pregnant (something that happens even today very often) but not spirit sleeping with humans. Yes they can take human form but are not in a human form.

 

[keithr]

Angels don't have wings. They don't sing either.

Job 38:7 (WEB):

(7) when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

The "morning stars" in that verse are generally interpreted as referring to angelic beings. Albert Barnes' notes comment:

The expression “the morning-stars” is used on account of the beauty of the principal star which, at certain seasons of the year, leads on the morning. It is applied naturally to those angelic beings that are of distinguished glory and rank in heaven. That it refers to the angels, seems to be evident from the connection; and this interpretation is demanded in order to correspond with the phrase “sons of God” in the other member of the verse.​

 

[keithr]

I can put it simply…but not necessarily in a brief text.

You're right - you can't seem to state it succinctly!

God IS Spirit, and HAS Spirits, all being His ONE SAME SPIRIT.

What does that mean - that "God has seven spirits"? How can He have seven spirits that are all one same spirit? That doesn't make any sense.

HE GIVES the WHOLENESS of HIS FULL SPIRIT TO…… NO ONE.

And yet, referring to Jesus, Paul states, Colossians 2:9 (WEB):

(9) For in him all the fullness of the Deity dwells bodily,​

and he also states, Ephesians 3:19 (WEB):

(19) and to know Christ’s love which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.​

Particular blessings and gifts…are called the Seven Spirits of God.

By whom, and why? I quoted a verse that listed nine gifts of the spirit, so why are they called the "Seven Spirits of God"? Why is it that the only place in the Bible that uses the phrase "seven spirits of God" is not refering to gifts or blessing from God to men? All that writing and digression and yet you still haven't addressed the question I asked - where in the Bible does it say that God has seven spirits?

These are the only verses that I can find that mention seven spirits (from the WEB):

Revelation 1:4

(4) John, to the seven assemblies that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from God, who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits who are before his throne;​

Revelation 3:1

(1) “And to the angel of the assembly in Sardis write: “He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars says these things: “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.​

Revelation 4:5

(5) Out of the throne proceed lightnings, sounds, and thunders. There were seven lamps of fire burning before his throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.​

Revelation 5:6

(6) I saw in the middle of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the middle of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.​

The only other mention of seven spirits is when referring to people who have seven evil spirits or demons in them (Matthew 12:45, Luke 8:2 and Luke 11:26).

 

[Peterlag]

Job 38:7 (WEB):

(7) when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

The "morning stars" in that verse are generally interpreted as referring to angelic beings. Albert Barnes' notes comment:

The expression “the morning-stars” is used on account of the beauty of the principal star which, at certain seasons of the year, leads on the morning. It is applied naturally to those angelic beings that are of distinguished glory and rank in heaven. That it refers to the angels, seems to be evident from the connection; and this interpretation is demanded in order to correspond with the phrase “sons of God” in the other member of the verse.​

Angels are never sent to the earth to sing. There's no Scripture to say that angels sing. The morning star is probably a name for the planet Venus when it appears in the east before sunrise. Nor does shouted for joy mean singing. We have a gazillion different religions because people like Albert Barnes states what he believes rather than what is written.

 

[Taken]

You're right - you can't seem to state it succinctly!

Fact is I can not understand Spiritual things…
FOR YOU.

How can He have seven spirits that are all one same spirit? That doesn't make any sense.

It is the Carnal Mind that demands knowledge makes logical sense to a man.

God is Spirit, which requires a man to communicate and understand God in a spiritual sense…and WHY Scripture expressly informs you, the Carnal Mind is an enemy against God.

And yet, referring to Jesus, Paul states, Colossians 2:9 (WEB):

(9) For in him all the fullness of the Deity dwells bodily,​

And yet, the spiritual understanding of the plainly revealed spiritual knowledge still seems a mystery to you…

Of course the Father and Son HAVE the SAME One Spirit, because the ARE the SAME ONE God…(John 10: 30 I and my father ARE one.)

What does that mean - that "God has seven spirits"?

Same as an Earthly man has MANY body parts, MANY talents, MANY attributes, MANY ideas, MANY names, MANY titles….ALL of those things that apply to him are EARTHLY and yet he is still ONE man.

Same as God has MANY body parts, MANY talents, MANY attributes, MANY ideas, MANY names, MANY titles….ALL of those things that apply to Him are SPIRIT and Yet He is still ONE Spirit.

 

[keithr]

Angels are never sent to the earth to sing.

Why are you now introducing "sent to earth" to sing?!

There's no Scripture to say that angels sing.

Except perhaps Job 38:7!

The morning star is probably a name for the planet Venus when it appears in the east before sunrise.

That's not likely the intended meaning because it is plural - "the morning stars sang together".

We have a gazillion different religions because people like Albert Barnes states what he believes rather than what is written.

His notes were published in 1847-85, yet we had the hymn "Hark! The Herald Angels Sing" written in 1739, so it can't have been Barnes who introduced that idea. Perhaps it was God - Jeremiah 51:48 (WEB):

(48) Then the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, will sing for joy over Babylon; for the destroyers will come to her from the north,” says Yahweh.​

God seems to think that the angels can sing.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Can I ask why you would choose to enter a church that teaches what you disagree with?

I love where Paul sets with a brother who is weak —-the weak brother having not knowledge of Christ. but Paul speaks of if he (Paul) destroys the weak who has not the same knowledge of Christ WITH the knowledge of Christ that has been given unto him …then he (Paul) sins against Christ. For Gods “perfection is made perfect in weakness” —-for the strong ought to support the weak. And those who “lack” God has bestowed even more honor upon, so in supplying for one another “you so fulfill the Law of Christ” who EVEN though Jesus Christ possessed all things(all knowledge), He became as one who possessed nothing(poverty), so that through Him we might be made “rich” towards God. Paul does the same walking the the Spirit of God towards one who is weak and without knowledge.
…saying if he uses the knowledge of Christ as a sword to kill his brother who is weak and without (lacking) then, “I sin so against Christ.” And make myself a transgressor against that which is perfect. Against God who answered Paul once regarding his own thorn, “My grace is sufficient for My strength is made perfect in weakness”

What does that have to do with why I would go to a church I disagree with? Because what I gather from the above is: NOT everyone has the same Knowledge of Christ. What damage would it do if I visited a church that I disagreed with? In todays world there are not many (if any) that I do agree with(a hundred percent). does the mean I can never visit them? To me, Paul wasn’t worried his weaker brothers fear to eat or not eat would jump on him…instead Paul was demonstrating patience and helping those who lack. Which this weak brother is described as “one who lacks the same knowledge” does the passage show because of the weak brothers lack of knowledge of Christ that he is an enemy? When Paul is instructed to do no harm against one who is weak and with knowledge?

Will I ever go to churches I disagree with. Probably not. All I am saying is the above to me teaches something powerful about “love” for those who lack and are weak. And it’s not pulling over to give money to a person standing on a street corner with a “help me” sign…to ease our own consciousness. It’s getting elbow-deep in support for those who are weak and lack the same knowledge of Christ.

^all only my opinion

If the criteria for genuine Christianity is what Paul mentions at 1 Cor 1:10….
”Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
How can you reconcile that admonition within a “hen house” that you know is occupied by “foxes?

Old Testament those bound and in the fire and seen unbound and walking in the fire and it burned them not.

Would Christ not provide a “hen house” where “foxes” are kept our? There are security guards at the door….

Jesus and his apostles warned that a “falling away” (apostasy) would take place, but it was not a recent occurrence….in fact they said it was already happening whilst they were still alive….
2 Thess 2:1-8…
“However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.“ (*2 Peter 3:10)

“3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. . . . .
6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way.
8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.“

“The lawless one” will be “revealed” by the fact that they are disunited, whilst claiming that they are all still “the body of Christ”. Christ cannot have a disunited body…..all will be revealed ”by the manifestation of his presence”…..in this judgment period. It is becoming more and more obvious that the church system is dying for lack of conviction and unity. There is no evidence of God’s uniting spirit.

I don’t disagree concerning the “falling away”

1 Peter 1:23-24 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, (this is not what JW are teaching if I have understood, but only a select few are born of an incorruptible seed, selected to bear the heavenly image) by the word of God, which lives and abides for ever. [24] For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower thereof falls away:
To me this is man’s glory that falls away… there are two types of glory: one glory given of men which is wishy-washy and The Glory given of God which does not fall away. This bloom called glory in the above is blossomed from flesh and as it “flesh” withers away … the blossom also shrivels and falls away.
Life teaches the glory given and that comes forth out of men will, without doubt, perish fall away. Out of this falling away …see the pretty glorious blossom where the flesh is withered that fed the blossom is curling and turning brown and decaying and about to turn loose and fall off… brother then turns on brother and the war to keep this glory from “passing away” to keep this glory of men from “falling away”…all kinds of nasty “dire circumstances” begins. A brutal display of brother against brother, mother, daughter, family …to grapple at the glory of this blooms of the flesh.

but to me, it’s all foolishness because God says (if I understand correctly) it is the Glory which comes from God that dresses a body in “not worth to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us” this Fruit flourishes out of the Spirit of God , and is no passing spark of a bloom…of here today and gone tomorrow in a flash. .
Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Paul here, I believe, was telling us to be adaptable so as to reach the hearts of as many as possible.

Have you ever wondered why God does not manifest himself in more obvious ways to demonstrate his power and to make known in no uncertain terms, what he expects of his worshippers? Would that not be more persuasive?

I‘d be interested in your answer….

Romans 6:20-21
For when you were the servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. [21] What fruit had you then in those things you are now ashamed? (Do you remember how your glorious bloom did fall?) for the end of those things is death.
^to me that is the most persuasive where God hands them over to unrighteousness, so that they can have opportunity to see ‘what fruit you had in those things that you are now ashamed of. For the end of those things is death.’ It’s persuasive I think…to eat of it until you’re sick to death of it and persuaded the end is without a doubt death, ashamed. Crying out for God to delivered you out from such a death and shame, pleading for mercy in your humiliation of those things you invested in that led to death. It manifests in life, yea? The sowing and the reaping of what is sown? Putting a person on their knees …looking back at the unrighteousness they walked in, and it’s undeniable they need deliverance out from those things they once trusted in.

Consider this with what’s going on in the churches today. We still debate. We still back- bite. We still accuse and brother still hates brother. There’s so much division and despising and arrogance and who is right and who is wrong, who is better and who is worse …as The bloom of glory attached to the flesh and the flesh withers, then the bloom falls away. Has the churches been handed over. Romans 6:20-21 For when you were the servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. [21] What fruit had you then in those things you are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

It’s like it doesn’t matter if all of it ends in death. None of those things instructed leads to death are an option to quit. We are going to head on continuing for it… a great falling away? I do think it began long ago and grows “waxing worse and worse” it’s pretty obvious its headed to death. Similar to the Titanic who arrogantly boasted it was as unsinkable ship —-yet it never noticed the iceberg before it was right on them and they drove the ship right into it. THEN finally maybe “What fruit had you then in those things you are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.”

Point is…doesn’t the Truth always manifest in the end of what fruit it is of? Either of Life? Or of death?

 

[keithr]

Fact is I can not understand Spiritual things…
FOR YOU.

Spiritual understanding is not out of harmony with God's written Word, yet your "spiritual understanding" seems to be.

Same as an Earthly man has MANY body parts, MANY talents, MANY attributes, MANY ideas, MANY names, MANY titles….ALL of those things that apply to him are EARTHLY and yet he is still ONE man.

Same as God has MANY body parts, MANY talents, MANY attributes, MANY ideas, MANY names, MANY titles….ALL of those things that apply to Him are SPIRIT and Yet He is still ONE Spirit.

I give up! You seem incapable of thinking logically. You said "God is spirit and has spirits". A comparable simile for man would be, "Man is flesh and has fleshes", or "man is a body and has bodies". It doesn't make sense!

 

[Peterlag]

Why are you now introducing "sent to earth" to sing?!


Except perhaps Job 38:7!


That's not likely the intended meaning because it is plural - "the morning stars sang together".


His notes were published in 1847-85, yet we had the hymn "Hark! The Herald Angels Sing" written in 1739, so it can't have been Barnes who introduced that idea. Perhaps it was God - Jeremiah 51:48 (WEB):

(48) Then the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, will sing for joy over Babylon; for the destroyers will come to her from the north,” says Yahweh.​

God seems to think that the angels can sing.

I never said Barnes was the first to introduce angels singing. But I see no Scripture that they do.

 

[Peterlag]

Why are you now introducing "sent to earth" to sing?!


Except perhaps Job 38:7!


That's not likely the intended meaning because it is plural - "the morning stars sang together".


His notes were published in 1847-85, yet we had the hymn "Hark! The Herald Angels Sing" written in 1739, so it can't have been Barnes who introduced that idea. Perhaps it was God - Jeremiah 51:48 (WEB):

(48) Then the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, will sing for joy over Babylon; for the destroyers will come to her from the north,” says Yahweh.​

God seems to think that the angels can sing.

We are not on the same page. I never said angels cannot sing. I said they don't and I was thinking of them interacting with us when I said it. I was not thinking about what they do in heaven when they are not with us. Call me crazy but I tend to think it terms of biblical data that pertains to us.