Salvation with works, not by works

[Grailhunter]

There aren’t any scriptures that say “you cannot lose your salvation”.

Understanding the scriptures as a whole you realize that all the scriptures that guarantee salvation apply to those who hear the word of God and do it; those who keep Christ’s sayings (all of them); those who cease from sin; those who walk not according to the will of the flesh, but to the will of God; those who have crucified the flesh with its desires.

Are you saying that Christians have to be perfect to go to heaven? LOL

Tell ya what, I will play your game. You give me the scriptures that say you can lose your salvation and I will give you the ones that say you cannot.

You can go to Hebrews but then you have to explain a lot of what is going on in Hebrews and I will hold you to that.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

119

Otherwise it becomes a matter, not of depending on the work of Christ for salvation, but of supposedly trying to "stay saved" because of our efforts.

By who’s effort is this accomplished?

"And you… hath he reconciled… If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel" (Colossians 1:21-23)

“You” and “ye” is your effort.

"…let God be true, but every man a liar; …That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings" (Romans 3:4)

 

[farouk]

119


By who’s effort is this accomplished?

"And you… hath he reconciled… If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel" (Colossians 1:21-23)

“You” and “ye” is your effort.

"…let God be true, but every man a liar; …That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings" (Romans 3:4)

Salvation is "not of works" (Ephesians 2.9). This is what reliance on the grace of God is all about. Philippians 2 tells us that 'it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure'.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Salvation is not like turning a faucet on and off; "Monday Mandy was saved; Tuesday she wasn't, Thursday she was; not sure about Friday."

After Tuesday, Mandy is a lost reprobate.

She will not be saved ever again.

 

[farouk]

After Tuesday, Mandy is a lost reprobate.

She will not be saved ever again.

I think I'm probably done with this exchange; we are such a long way apart, it seems.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Salvation is "not of works" (Ephesians 2.9).

No it isn’t.

To get born again is a free gift.

But once you are born again, beware lest you turn away and be hardened in sin. It’s impossible to repent again.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I think I'm probably done with this

Because you have no scriptural standing for your position.

Once Saved Always Saved is a fantasy.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Are you saying that Christians have to be perfect to go to heaven? LOL

Tell ya what, I will play your game. You give me the scriptures that say you can lose your salvation and I will give you the ones that say you cannot.

You can go to Hebrews but then you have to explain a lot of what is going on in Hebrews and I will hold you to that.

I don’t need to go to Hebrews.

I’ll go to this:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:27-29)

The ones that will never perish:

1. Hear his voice.
2. Follow him.

Now let’s see if you can hear his voice:

"…if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." (Mark 9:43-49)

Now, can you follow him?:

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin," (1 Peter 2:21-22)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2)

 

[Grailhunter]

I don’t need to go to Hebrews.

I’ll go to this:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:27-29)

The ones that will never perish:

1. Hear his voice.
2. Follow him.

Now let’s see if you can hear his voice:

"…if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." (Mark 9:43-49)

Now, can you follow him?:

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin," (1 Peter 2:21-22)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2)

Look here, I can debate both sides of this. Salvation is an important thing....right? So it would be good if there was a scripture that says the exact words...that either....if you do this, you have lost your salvation or that under no circumstances can you lose your salvation....unfortunately those exact phrases do not appear in the New Testament. I don't even know of a scripture that says specifically that you can lose your salvation and get it back again.

And instead of slamming the post with scriptures I will give you two websites to look at for either side....
This is a site that will list how many ways you an get into trouble.... What Does the Bible Say About Losing Your Salvation?

This is a site that list the scriptures that say that salvation is secure.... 25 Reasons You Can't Lose Salvation | PaulEChapman.com
Just copy them into your web browser.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

would be good if there was a scripture that says the exact words...that either....if you do this, you have lost your salvation or that under no circumstances can you lose your salvation....unfortunately those exact phrases do not appear in the New Testament.

This scripture is quite clear (I’ll post it again):

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." (Mark 9:43-49)

Christ is not in the business of making void his OWN words!

 

[Grailhunter]

This scripture is quite clear (I’ll post it again):

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." (Mark 9:43-49)

Christ is not in the business of making void his OWN words!

There are a lot scriptures that are clear.
Like I said you are not going to find a scripture that says specifically you will lose your salvation.
Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Of course you know what John said 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

I gave you the sites

 

[Curtis]

Salvation is by grace, not by works, lest we should boast, but salvation that is by God's grace is with works:

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. (Heb 6)

The things that accompany salvation begin with the first principles of repentance from dead works and then go on to the perfecting of the saints, being full of wisdom and maintaining good works: fulfilling the royal law of loving our neighbor as ourselves.

Without works of faith, faith is dead, being alone. Without the things that accompany salvation, salvation is dead, being alone.

People can deny falling from grace and turning back from God unto destruction, but there is no denial that salvation by God's grace comes with works of faith.

Therefore, no man is saved without the things accompanying salvation, and if any man openly shows the dead works of the unbeliever, we are commanded not to keep company with them, nor be partaker of their sins.

So, Salvation is not unconditional in that salvation is accompanied with the work and labour of love, without which no man shall inherit the promises of God. Salvation does not come alone. Salvation alone does not come from God.

We work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, for the grace that brings salvation without fear of God, nor repentance of dead works, nor the righteousness and true holiness of God, is not of God but of corrupt man.

The salvation of God that works to redeem the soul is that which God works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phillip 2)

Salvation is not unconditional in that we must do our part in our salvation: Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

And so we are saved of God by keeping ourselves in the faith, the Word, and the love of God, that the wicked one touch us not. (Jude 21)(1 John 5:18)

We keep ourselves in His salvation and in His love by keeping His commandments through faith in His Son:

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. (I John 5:3)

The things that accompany salvation by grace are obeying the faith of Jesus and keeping His commandments, and them that do not are not saved, being dead and alone without God.

Therefore, whether it is warning to not fall away from the faith unto unbelief, or it is simple truth of salvation: we of necessity must maintain good works of faith.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (I John 3)

I mostly agree with you, provided you understand that in the new covenant, the Decalogue is replaced by the two love commands, that are far superior to the ten...

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Curtis]

This scripture is quite clear (I’ll post it again):

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." (Mark 9:43-49)

Christ is not in the business of making void his OWN words!

Do you actually think Jesus literally wants people to poke out their eyes and cut off their hand?

That was a Jewish way of communicating how important it is to avoid sin.

Just like when Jesus said we must hate our mothers, fathers, and family - that was a Jewish idiom meaning we must love Him much more than our family - though Calvinists haven’t figured out what God hating Esau in Romans 9, really means, in light of that idiom.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"…cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray… to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: …For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." (2 Peter 2:14-20)



Many have knowledge of Jesus Christ. But If they don’t believe and get born again, their latter end is unchanged: they will perish.

But those who have knowledge of Jesus Christ and believe (like those addressed in the letter); if they forsake the right way, their latter end is worse than their beginning because they cannot renew their new sins unto repentance. Their latter end is worse because they have no more hope of salvation. Whereas the first still have hope of believing to salvation.

Read the chapter! and then keep the verse in its context. It is all about false prophets and the many who follow their pernicious ways! Not once is there even a tiny implication these who follow or the false prophets are saved. These are people who have knowledge but not saving faith. These could be part of the crowd Jesus says _ I never knew you.

Saved people are in Jesus' and the Father hands and no one can pluck them out of their hands! Not even ourselves.

Just remember Jesus paid for the sins of the world! People now do not go to the lake of fire because they sinned- but because they rejected the only payment God the Father accepts and thus they pay the price themselves.

One is saved forever and som ewho appear saved, never were saved but were weeds in the wheat or wolves in sheep clothing.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Do you actually think Jesus literally wants people to poke out their eyes and cut off their hand? That was a Jewish way of communicating how important it is to avoid sin.

That was the word of God from heaven.

The Bible did not come from the mind of a Jew. It came from God in heaven! Not a man on earth.

Do you actually think people are literally going to be thrown into the lake of Fire?

YES THEY WILL IF THEY CONTINUE IN SIN (“SAVED” OR NOT!)

So you decide what the cost is and start figuring it out real quick!

"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:33)

 

[Curtis]

That was the word of God from heaven.

The Bible did not come from the mind of a Jew. It came from God in heaven! Not a man on earth.

Do you actually think people are literally going to be thrown into the lake of Fire?

YES THEY WILL IF THEY CONTINUE IN SIN (“SAVED” OR NOT!)

So you decide what the cost is and start figuring it out real quick!

"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:33)

You ignored part of the question, is it because it doesn’t fit your narrative?

Jesus also said to hate your mother, father, and whole family.

Was that also to be taken literally, as you insist poking out an eye over sinning is literal?

Or do you admit Jesus was using a well known Jewish idiom that means to love our family less than we love Jesus?

 

[Curtis]

Read the chapter! and then keep the verse in its context. It is all about false prophets and the many who follow their pernicious ways! Not once is there even a tiny implication these who follow or the false prophets are saved. These are people who have knowledge but not saving faith. These could be part of the crowd Jesus says _ I never knew you.

Saved people are in Jesus' and the Father hands and no one can pluck them out of their hands! Not even ourselves.

Just remember Jesus paid for the sins of the world! People now do not go to the lake of fire because they sinned- but because they rejected the only payment God the Father accepts and thus they pay the price themselves.

One is saved forever and som ewho appear saved, never were saved but were weeds in the wheat or wolves in sheep clothing.

Your version of OSAS is refuteD by Jesus Himself in Revelation 3:16 where He rejects the lukewarm by spewing them out of His mouth, then goes on to tell that church at Sardis that they ARE DEAD, warns them to REPENT and warns them that he will blot their names from the book of life, if they don’t overcome.

A believer can fail to be an overcomer and be erased from the book of life.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your version of OSAS is refuteD by Jesus Himself in Revelation 3:16 where He rejects the lukewarm by spewing them out of His mouth, then goes on to tell that church at Sardis that they ARE DEAD, warns them to REPENT and warns them that he will blot their names from the book of life, if they don’t overcome.

A believer can fail to be an overcomer and be erased from the book of life.

No they can't. YOur misunderstanding of those passages is refuted by too many verses! I give you but a few!

Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Lukewarm = not saved!

repent+ needing to be saved! Meta-noia means to change ones mind- and that occurs at salvation. And being an overcomer means we have trusted in teh death and resurrection of Jesus.

But as you say one can sin their way out of salvation. You must believe that when one got saved Jesus' deatrh didn't pay for all their sins, just most of them. After all JNesus is omniscient and knows the future like the present! So He would have known if one leaves the faith so that those sins were not covered by th eblood! That is a very uneconomical thing a wise and perfect God would do! Save someone just to unsave them.

But the bible does speak of people who look like Christians, talk like Christians, and even walk alot like Christians, it says Jesus NEVER knew them ( not knew them once but stopped knowing them) and that they loeft because though they looked lik eus they never were really part of us.

 

[robert derrick]

I mostly agree with you, provided you understand that in the new covenant, the Decalogue is replaced by the two love commands, that are far superior to the ten...

Shalom Aleichem

The royal law we fulfill is loving our neighbor as ourselves. (James 2)

They are not far superior in themselves, than when they were commanded in the old covenant (Lev 19:18). It is the new covenant that is far superior to the old, since the means of fulfillment is far better: they are now commanded from the heart in the Spirit, not just in letter to be done outwardly without faith and love of God inwardly.

The law of Moses was weak in that it only commanded outward obedience of the flesh. If any received circumcision of the flesh according to the law, they were received as Israel of God by law, but now only those circumcised inwardly in the Spirit, as the prophecy called for (Deut 10:16), are come in to the Israel of God: outwardly of the flesh without faith of Jesus means nothing to God, and there never shall be any such justification by the flesh again.

 

[robert derrick]

Are you saying that Christians have to be perfect to go to heaven? LOL

Tell ya what, I will play your game. You give me the scriptures that say you can lose your salvation and I will give you the ones that say you cannot.

You can go to Hebrews but then you have to explain a lot of what is going on in Hebrews and I will hold you to that.

Are you saying that Christians have to be perfect to go to heaven? LOL

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5)

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection (Heb 6)

The accusation of 'having to be perfect' to go to heaven is both false and foolishly made.

If not continuing in the sins of the devil and continuing in the grace and faith of God to do His righteousness and good will, is 'perfection to be mocked at' by you, then plainly you are not saved. Believing we are saved is not the same as believing and obeying God and knowing we have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)

You give me the scriptures that say you can lose your salvation

The first problem is you think God's salvation is your salvation. Which is why you think salvation includes the sins of the devil.

We don't lose by works what we have not won by works. But we do lose what we had by faith, when we leave the faith and return to life of sins of the devil, which you are plainly in.

Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. (1 Tim 5)

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. (Rev 2)

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Peter 2)

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins...Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb 10)

Continuing in the grace and the faith of God by leaving behind dead works repented of, and going on to the perfection of the spirit in putting off also: anger, wrath, malice, enying, etc...are the necessary things that accompany with salvation of God by grace, and it is by grace that we may begin to do and to continue to do.

Calling upon a grace to save by a salvation isolated from the first things thereof, is naming a salvation by grace through a faith that is alone an dead (James 2): dead works of a dead faith of a dead salvation that mocks and laughs at an despises the Spirit of grace, but which we go on to perfection.

Unless:
1. None can cast off their first faith
2. None can fall from the first works
3. Without repenting, our candlestick will not be removed out of our place in Christ.
4. The latter end worse than the beginning, of them that from God, is not a worse judgment than unbelievers.
5. Sinning wilfully after being sanctified by the blood of Jesus is not as sore punishment as unbelievers, who never were washed in His blood.

and I will give you the ones that say you cannot.

Plain SAcriptures showing having had faith and been sanctified in the blood of Jesus, with sorer punishment and end worse than before ever beginning.

Now show Scriptures stating plainly that them of the faith cannot possibly turn away from the faith, to being worse than before ever believed.