Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[WPM]

Hopefully then you can understand why requoting another poster saying, "the Bible pattern is that stars represent angels" is not accurate but is an attempt to force one's opinion into the Bible, because stars in the Bible often represent people, not angels.

What people fall from heaven before the coming of Christ?

 

[WPM]

Hopefully then you can understand why requoting another poster saying, "the Bible pattern is that stars represent angels" is not accurate but is an attempt to force one's opinion into the Bible, because stars in the Bible often represent people, not angels.

1Co 4:9 for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Jesus became man not an angel. Scripture is careful at distinguishing between the two.

Heb 2:6 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man...
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Man is distinct from, and inferior to, angels.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Man is distinct from, and inferior to, angels.

 

[rwb]

1Co 4:9 for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Jesus became man not an angel. Scripture is careful at distinguishing between the two.

Heb 2:6 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man...
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Man is distinct from, and inferior to, angels.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Man is distinct from, and inferior to, angels.

It's not a matter of making a distinction between man and angels. You seem not able to make a distinction between stars (symbolically or literally) and angels!

 

[rwb]

What people fall from heaven before the coming of Christ?

Whosoever from among the twelve stars, Israel of Old, that died in unbelief! Do you believe the woman depicted here has twelve angels upon her head?

Revelation 12:1 (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Revelation 12:4 (KJV) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Deuteronomy 28:62 (KJV) And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God.

 

[WPM]

It's not a matter of making a distinction between man and angels. You seem not able to make a distinction between stars (symbolically or literally) and angels!

Which humans fly back and forth from heaven?

 

[WPM]

Whosoever from among the twelve stars, Israel of Old, that died in unbelief! Do you believe the woman depicted here has twelve angels upon her head?

Revelation 12:1 (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Revelation 12:4 (KJV) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Deuteronomy 28:62 (KJV) And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God.

12 simply represents authority.

 

[William Barton]

IMO:

Genesis 37:9 "wandering stars" refers to Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto.

The ancients did not discern the difference between stars and planets. How could they?

 

[William Barton]

RWB asked:

Hopefully then you can understand why requoting another poster saying, "the Bible pattern is that stars represent angels" is not accurate but is an attempt to force one's opinion into the Bible, because stars in the Bible often represent people, not angels.

"Star" represents multiple things, it depends upon the context. That particular context IMO warranted angels.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My opinion:
o The woman is the nation Israel.

The only children of the woman mentioned in Revelation 12 are Jesus (Revelation 12:5) and those who follow Jesus (Revelation 12:17). How can you think that the nation of Israel is the mother of those who follow Jesus?

No, the mother of those who follow Jesus is the heavenly Jerusalem, which represents the church (the Israel of God).

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

o The sun is Jacob.
o The moon is Jacob's wife Rachael--and by extension his wife Leah, as well as his concubine Bilhah, and Leah's maid Zilpah, all of whom bore sons to Jacob.
o The twelve stars are the twelve sons of Jacob, progenitors of the twelve tribes of Israel.
o The crown configuration is the preeminence of Israel, as God's chosen people.

God's chosen people are those who belong to Christ in the church.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's not a matter of making a distinction between man and angels.

It becomes a matter of making that distinction when someone denies that there is such thing as angels in the sense of angels being created spirit beings who serve God, as @TribulationSigns does. At this point, I'm not even sure if you believe in the existence of angels in that sense, but I think you do.

 

[William Barton]

rwb noted
<Genesis 37:9 (KJV) sun, moon, 11 stars>

Yes, IMO in the metaphorical context of Genesis 37:9 "sun, moon, eleven stars" takes the meaning "father, mother, eleven brothers."

 

[TribulationSigns]

IMO:

Genesis 37:9 "wandering stars" refers to Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto.

Seriously? This is coming from someone who claimed to have:

• 4 years of Latin in high school.
• one year of New Testament Greek in college.
• the Oxford Greek Lexicon.
• the Oxford Latin Lexicon.
• the Koehler Baumgartner Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon.

And tell us with his "opinion" that the wandering stars are... (ahem) physical planets?

Oh boy!

 

[WPM]

Seriously? This is coming from someone who claimed to have:

• 4 years of Latin in high school.
• one year of New Testament Greek in college.
• the Oxford Greek Lexicon.
• the Oxford Latin Lexicon.
• the Koehler Baumgartner Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon.

And tell us with his "opinion" that the wandering stars are... (ahem) physical planets?

Oh boy!

You cannot lecture anyone.

 

[William Barton]

Seriously? This is coming from someone who claimed to have:

• 4 years of Latin in high school.
• one year of New Testament Greek in college.
• the Oxford Greek Lexicon.
• the Oxford Latin Lexicon.
• the Koehler Baumgartner Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon.

And tell us with his "opinion" that the wandering stars are... (ahem) physical planets?

Oh boy!

The stars in the sky are stationary, but the nine planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto) are not stationary. They all orbit the sun ("wander").

Today we know that the planets are fundamentally different from the stars, but the ancients had no way of knowing that, hence the epithet "wandering stars" (Greek αστρες πλανηται) arose (Jude 1:13).

It's in the Bible.

 

[rwb]

Which humans fly back and forth from heaven?

What makes you believe angels or humans fly back and forth from heaven?

 

[rwb]

12 simply represents authority.

Twelve stars in Rev 12 represents the full number of the tribes of Israel who are human and not angels.

 

[rwb]

RWB asked:

"Star" represents multiple things, it depends upon the context. That particular context IMO warranted angels.

What particular context in your opinion warrants angels being depicted as stars? The Bible sometimes uses the imagery of stars to depict people, but I do not find the Bible pattern representing stars as angels. That is reading one's opinion into the text.

 

[rwb]

The stars in the sky are stationary, but the nine planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto) are not stationary.

Today we know that the planets are fundamentally different from the stars, but the ancients had no way of knowing that, hence the epithet "wandering stars" (Greek αστρες πλανηται) arose (Jude 1:13).

It's in the Bible.

Where does the Bible speak of angels as stars as you and others assume? The only way we might arrive at that conclusion is by reading our OPINION into the Word of God!

 

[WPM]

What particular context in your opinion warrants angels being depicted as stars? The Bible sometimes uses the imagery of stars to depict people, but I do not find the Bible pattern representing stars as angels. That is reading one's opinion into the text.

Check the OP, and stop avoiding it. The whole Op forbids what you have been taught.

 

[rwb]

Check the OP, and stop avoiding it. The whole Op forbids what you have been taught.

Whose avoiding? Prove "the Bible pattern represents stars as angels"!!! Deflection is always your go to reply!