Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[TribulationSigns]

"Angel" in the New Testament is Greek αγγελος = messenger.

It is careless and shallow to take the Greek word αγγελος (“angelos”) and automatically force the meaning “celestial being” into every passage without examining how God Himself uses the term throughout Scripture. Yes, αγγελος means “messenger,” but the real question is: WHAT kind of messenger is being spoken of in context?

Scripture repeatedly uses “messenger” for HUMAN servants of God, not merely heavenly beings. The seven “angels” of the churches in Revelation 1:20 were connected directly to earthly congregations. God was addressing responsible messengers within those churches — men entrusted to deliver His Word — not celestial creatures floating around local assemblies like you "Greek expert" thinks!

This is the danger of reading church tradition and human assumptions into the text instead of letting Scripture define itself. Many people see the English word “angel” and instantly imagine winged celestial beings because that is what religion conditioned them to think, yep! But biblical interpretation requires spiritual discernment and contextual study, not imagination.

A true student of Scripture does not impose definitions onto the Bible. He lets the Bible define its own terms.

Selah!

Revelation 1:20. It's a figure of speech, like calling an actress or an athlete a star.

Did God talk about actresses or athletes being “stars” in Revelation 1:20? Of course not. That comparison is completely irrelevant to the text. You have no clue what you are talking about because you are allowing human opinion and modern expressions to interpret God’s Word instead of letting Scripture interpret itself.

Revelation 1:20 already explains the symbolism plainly: the stars are the “messengers” of the seven churches. The issue is not whether symbolic language exists — everyone understands Revelation contains symbols. The issue is HOW GOD DEFINES THE SYMBOLS.

You are inserting worldly analogies into the passage instead of examining the biblical meaning of “messenger” throughout Scripture. That is exactly how false interpretations are created — by reading personal assumptions into the text rather than drawing meaning out of it.

A serious student of Scripture does not interpret Revelation through Hollywood language, sports culture, or church tradition. He interprets it through the whole counsel of God.

@rwb

 

[William Barton]

The only children of the woman mentioned in Revelation 12 are Jesus (Revelation 12:5) and those who follow Jesus (Revelation 12:17). How can you think that the nation of Israel is the mother of those who follow Jesus?

No, the mother of those who follow Jesus is the heavenly Jerusalem, which represents the church (the Israel of God).

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


God's chosen people are those who belong to Christ in the church.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

God's special people are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Ephesians 3:6).

God's special city is Jerusalem (Jeremiah 3:17).

 

[William Barton]

In the letters to the seven churches I would say "angel" refers to the leader of the congregation, not to a heavenly angel.

 

[rwb]

LOL. No one. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. The point being made is not against someone saying that humans go back and forth between heaven and earth, but rather against someone saying that angels, as in created spirit beings called angels, do not exist. So, showing a description of angels going back and forth between heaven, which only angels can do (not humans) can be used as evidence for the existence of angels.

SO!

You are the one wanting him to tell you something that he has already said.

Pay attention to the discussion of others if you wish to contribute thoughtfully to what is being said and be considered. The question posed has to do with the statement initially made by wpm, "the Bible pattern represents stars as angels." He makes this bold statement as if he's proven what he alleges, because he and you believe Satan was created a good angel but became evil Satan when he rebelled against God. In order for Satan to have been created a good angel, stars must be forced to represent angels, or the verses used to promote this error do not prove what is alleged.

You said "It seems you desire to pick and choose when stars must be angels to support opinions and not truth."

You prove your lack of attention to what has been said. Stars do NOT depict angels! Stars in Scripture are sometimes simply stars we see in the night sky. Other times stars, as I've shown, depict human beings as we find in Rev 12 depicting Israel of Old. But I find no verses depicting stars as representing angels! Verses used in the OP of stars representing angels are not FROM the Bible but READ INTO the Bible to support the unbiblical belief that Satan was a created angel of God and became evil Satan through rebellion. That is the CRUX of this debate! You need to learn FROM the Word of God without reading your preconceived doctrine into the Bible.

Yet, you have no answer for why you believe that God created Satan and demons to be very bad despite scripture saying that everything He created was very good (Genesis 1:31). Why do you have no interest in holding a position that you can reconcile with ALL of scripture?

You reason through the mind of man! God very clearly tells us that He created ALL things in heaven and earth. He also tells us that Satan from the beginning is a liar and murderer. And the prophet Isaiah credits God with forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil, "I the LORD do all these things." So why do you assume God creating evil serpent (Satan) to be more cunning and crafty, in a bad sense, than any other created thing is NOT part of all God created "very good"? You assume God creating evil is a bad thing through the natural mind of man without understanding how God uses even darkness and evil to accomplish whatsoever He purposes shall come to pass upon the earth. Take for example the life of Joseph where man thinking to do him harm, "God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Of course, the greatest evil God ordained from the foundation of the world is the only means by which man might be saved. Had God not only created evil and ordain Christ to be the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, then all that God created "very good" would be lost forever. Yet though the mind of man you cannot fathom why God creating darkness, and evil is part of His "very good" creation.

I don't recall what he said about that in particular, but I have said that He was not created to be a liar and murderer from the very moment he was created. It's not talking about the beginning of his existence, but rather from the beginning of the creation of the earth when we're first introduced to him. Do you not know that the angels witnessed the creation of the earth? So, their beginning was even before the earth was created.

How about proving from the Word of God all that you assume here?

Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

You're assuming morning stars are angels without understanding how Job is written using poetic prose. Poetic prose uses imagery, metaphor, and symbolism and other figurative language. Job does NOT prove what you and wpm allege, that stars represent angels. Consider for example vs 8 below where we read of the sea with doors. Not literally, but symbolically/metaphorically/imagery showing us how God is Providential over all that He has created, even the sea ebbs and flows at His command.

Job 38:8 (KJV) Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

Who else could these "morning stars" who were there when God was creating the earth be except for angels?

You're assuming morning stars represent angels without any explanation except your opinion. Morning stars are dawn stars or stars seen at the breaking of day, as is Jesus the "bright and morning star".

Revelation 22:16 (KJV) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

There are three (stars) that bear witness in heaven. At creation the morning stars representing Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost, in Job depicted as stars singing together at creation, as all the sons of God (those chosen from the foundation of the earth) symbolically shouting for joy, as through creation all ordained to be saved shall be saved.

1 John 5:7 (KJV) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[rwb]

"Angel" in the New Testament is Greek αγγελος = messenger.

Revelation 1:20. It's a figure of speech, like calling an actress or an athlete a star.

In both Hebrew and Greek angel is interpreted messenger.

Rev 1:20 leaves us without guessing because John plainly tells us the seven stars are human messengers (angels) of the seven churches and the seven candlesticks are the churches.

 

[Pierac]

Scripture teaches that everything God created was very good (Genesis 1:31). So, why do you believe that God created Satan and his angels to be very bad instead?

Good for what? Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

 

[rwb]

God's special people are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Ephesians 3:6).

God's special city is Jerusalem (Jeremiah 3:17).

God's special people are the SPIRITUAL descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, belonging to the supernatural SEED (Christ). The physical city of Jerusalem of Old ceased being God's special city through spiritual apostasy. Since the advent of Christ Jerusalem from above is the Holy/heavenly city of God.

 

[William Barton]

So, you are saying that you think Enoch and Elijah fell or will fall from heaven?

See Malachi 4:5.

The two witnesses are mentioned in Revelation 11:3. Enoch was translated, hence never died (Hebrews 11:5, Genesis 5:24). Similarly Elijah was taken up, never died (2Kings 2:11).

Check out Google "who are the two witness Revelation."

 

[TribulationSigns]

You're assuming morning stars represent angels without any explanation except your opinion. Morning stars are dawn stars or stars seen at the breaking of day, as is Jesus the "bright and morning star".

Revelation 22:16 (KJV) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Jesus Christ is the true morning star and the cornerstone of the kingdom of heaven (True Congregation of Israel). And His redeemed saints are sons of God, are also the morning stars becasue they are representatives of His kingdom of heaven. We all shouted for joy. They are NOT the celestial beings called "angels" per SI's flawed belief.

 

[TribulationSigns]

See Malachi 4:5.

The two witnesses are mentioned in Revelation 11:3. Enoch was translated, hence never died (Hebrews 11:5, Genesis 5:24). Similarly Elijah was taken up, never died (2Kings 2:11).

Check out Google "who are the two witness Revelation."

You trust Google’s search results over the Word of God when trying to understand who the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are? That is a dangerous exchange of authority. Scripture must interpret Scripture—not algorithms, opinions, or popular AI summaries.

Tsk, tsk. You consider yourself as Hebrew/Greek expert yet you are letting external sources sit in judgment over God’s Word instead of letting God’s Word speak for itself. Ouches!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God's special people are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Ephesians 3:6).

God's special city is Jerusalem (Jeremiah 3:17).

Great job of completely ignoring what I said and not addressing it at all. Well done.

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus became man not an angel.

Right, but there are instances in Scripture where He is called "the angel of God." These are in the Old Testament, and we call them theophanies; they are pre-advent appearances of Christ.

Man is distinct from, and inferior to, angels.

For sure. A little lower than, as the Psalmist says (8:5), quoted by the writer of Hebrews (2:7). And just did become a man (while also being God in the flesh), but set aside His position as second Person of the triune God for a time (during His life on earth), and in that condition was made to be a little lower than the angels, as all men are.

So, was He a man, or was He God? And the answer to that is, of course, yes. <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

SO!

LOL! Yeah, so what that your buddy denies the existence of angels, right? Wow.

Pay attention to the discussion of others if you wish to contribute thoughtfully to what is being said and be considered.

LOL! Every comment you make cracks me up. The discussion has been about multiple things and not just that. Again, look at the title of the thread.

The question posed has to do with the statement initially made by wpm, "the Bible pattern represents stars as angels." He makes this bold statement as if he's proven what he alleges, because he and you believe Satan was created a good angel but became evil Satan when he rebelled against God. In order for Satan to have been created a good angel, stars must be forced to represent angels, or the verses used to promote this error do not prove what is alleged.

Dude, what is wrong with you? Seriously! How many times do we have to tell you to look at his OP where he backed up that claim? Are you afraid to address what he said there about this? It sure seems like it to me!

You prove your lack of attention to what has been said. Stars do NOT depict angels!

Sometimes they do! Hello? Who do you think were there with God when He was creating the earth? Why do you ignore every argument made against your false beliefs?

Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Who do you think were the morning stars that were with God when He was creating the earth?

Revelation 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.

I trust that you understand that the dragon here represents Satan. Who were the "stars of heaven" that he drew and cast down to the earth? How can they have been anything but angels since they were from heaven?

Stars in Scripture are sometimes simply stars we see in the night sky. Other times stars, as I've shown, depict human beings as we find in Rev 12 depicting Israel of Old. But I find no verses depicting stars as representing angels!

Despite verses being presented to you that make no sense unless the stars represent angels. You ignore these verses and can't even bring yourself to address them! Are you afraid to do so? If not, put your money where your mouth is and address those passages and how you think they support your view.

You reason through the mind of man!

Absolutely not! I have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). Your false accusations mean nothing to me.

God very clearly tells us that He created ALL things in heaven and earth. He also tells us that Satan from the beginning is a liar and murderer.

I explained what that means and you are too AFRAID to even address what I said! What are you so afraid of when it comes to actually defending your doctrine and addressing opposing arguments? Why are you so evasive? That defies the confidence that you pretend to have in your beliefs.

Everything God created was VERY GOOD (Genesis 1:31) and you try to say that Satan and demons were created VERY BAD. And you just think that should be ignored. Think again! And it doesn't say that Satan was a liar and murderer from the beginning of his existence. That's your false assumption. He was a liar and murderer from the beginning of the creation of humanity.

And the prophet Isaiah credits God with forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil, "I the LORD do all these things."

LOL! Here you go again with your false teaching that God created evil. Unbelievable! A blatant contradiction of Genesis 1:31 that says everything God created was VERY GOOD! I can't take you seriously. God creates peace and the opposite of peace, which is calamity, not evil. He created physical light and darkness in the beginning. I truly cannot believe how badly you BUTCHER scripture. Terrible!

So why do you assume God creating evil serpent (Satan) to be more cunning and crafty, in a bad sense, than any other created thing is NOT part of all God created "very good"?

LOL! Do you imagine that I should take you seriously at all when you say nonsense like this? If so, think again. You are trying to tell me that "evil" equates to "very good"! HAHAHA!!!!! You should be embarrassed for posting this kind of nonsense.

You assume God creating evil is a bad thing through the natural mind of man without understanding how God uses even darkness and evil to accomplish whatsoever He purposes shall come to pass upon the earth. Take for example the life of Joseph where man thinking to do him harm, "God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Oh yeah, one example of something intended for evil that God intended for good means that all evil things are things that God intended for good? Obviously not! If that was the case, then why does God punish people for their wickedness? Eh? Huh? Do you even think about these things?

You're assuming morning stars are angels without understanding how Job is written using poetic prose. Poetic prose uses imagery, metaphor, and symbolism and other figurative language. Job does NOT prove what you and wpm allege, that stars represent angels. Consider for example vs 8 below where we read of the sea with doors. Not literally, but symbolically/metaphorically/imagery showing us how God is Providential over all that He has created, even the sea ebbs and flows at His command.

Job 38:8 (KJV) Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

So, tell me what a description of morning stars being there when God created the earth means then. What do you think that refers to exactly? I'm tired of you just making claims without providing any kind of coherent explanations to back them up.

You're assuming morning stars represent angels without any explanation except your opinion.

LOL! My explanation is that they are described as being there when God created the earth. It can't be referring to humans because He hadn't even created Adam yet. So, who do the morning stars represent, if not angels?

Morning stars are dawn stars or stars seen at the breaking of day, as is Jesus the "bright and morning star".

Revelation 22:16 (KJV) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

There are three (stars) that bear witness in heaven. At creation the morning stars representing Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost, in Job depicted as stars singing together at creation, as all the sons of God (those chosen from the foundation of the earth) symbolically shouting for joy, as through creation all ordained to be saved shall be saved.

1 John 5:7 (KJV) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

You are saying that the morning stars represent literal stars who are singing together? Who do you think the "sons of God" are who were shouting for joy while God was creating the earth? Planets? LOL. Come on!

 

[Rockerduck]

See Malachi 4:5.

The two witnesses are mentioned in Revelation 11:3. Enoch was translated, hence never died (Hebrews 11:5, Genesis 5:24). Similarly Elijah was taken up, never died (2Kings 2:11).

Check out Google "who are the two witness Revelation."

Revelation 1:20 -as for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

This establishes that the Lampstands are the churches.

Revelation 11:4 -These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

The olive tree and the fig tree both represent Israel, but the olive tree(oil) represents the Holy Spirit and Israel.

Romans 11:17- But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, ( Israel is Olive tree) and olive oil in the parable of the 10 virgins, represents the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 11:5 - And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

Jeremiah 5:14 -Therefore, thus says the Lord, the God of hosts, “Because you have spoken this word,
Behold, I am making My words in your mouth fire
And this people wood, and it will consume them.

The two witnesses are the church and the Holy Spirit and when a Spirit filled Preacher preaches in the churches the Holy Spirit is the Fire from the preacher/ evangelist's mouth through out the earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus Christ is the true morning star and the cornerstone of the kingdom of heaven (True Congregation of Israel). And His redeemed saints are sons of God, are also the morning stars becasue they are representatives of His kingdom of heaven. We all shouted for joy. They are NOT the celestial beings called "angels" per SI's flawed belief.

The passage referenced refers to the mornings stars and sons of God being there while God was creating the earth. No human beings were there when He was creating the earth. They were there even before He created Adam. You need to stop leading others astray with your false teaching.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Good for what? Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Lame response. If scripture says everything that God created was very good, which it does in Genesis 1:31, then everything God created was very good. Why would you want to deny that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

See Malachi 4:5.

The two witnesses are mentioned in Revelation 11:3. Enoch was translated, hence never died (Hebrews 11:5, Genesis 5:24). Similarly Elijah was taken up, never died (2Kings 2:11).

Check out Google "who are the two witness Revelation."

Do you know what falling from heaven refers to? It doesn't have anything to do with Enoch or Elijah. Falling from heaven means to be cast out of heaven, as scripture describes in relation to angels.

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

This is not something that would ever be said about Enoch or Elijah.

 

[PinSeeker]

So here's what I say, William:

IMO: Enoch and Elijah (who are never said to have died) are the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-13).

I say, like John indicates in Revelation 10:1-11... the vision of Revelation 10:1-11 speaks in a general fashion of John’s being empowered to continue to prophesy... the two witnesses of Revelation 11 are models for all the saints to imitate. All of us are to be faithful to the testimony of Jesus, even in the face of violent persecution from the Beast. We must be willing to face martyrdom, and God guarantees our vindication (vv. 11-12). Some aspects of this vision remain difficult and controversial. Some interpreters think that two literal individual human beings are in view: either two Christian prophets who were martyred shortly before the fall of Jerusalem, or two prophets who will appear shortly before the Second Coming. But in agreement with Revelation as a whole we find here a symbolic vision of Christian witness. The two witnesses are two lampstands (v. 4), indicating that they are symbolic figures standing for the witness of the lampstand-churches of 1:20. Thus they symbolize churches rather than specific human individuals. Two rather than seven lampstands are mentioned to imitate the pattern of Zechariah 4 and of Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3-4; cf. Deuteronomy 17:6; Luke 10:1).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[WPM]

SO! Who has argued humans go back and forth between heaven and earth?


Yes, you and wpm would love to deflect back to the OP to discuss ad nauseum what has already been addressed throughout these 48 pages.


It's not false accusation! This entire conversation is driven by the belief that Satan was created a good angel of God and became Satan through disobedience. That false assumption/opinion has been repeatedly shown to cause contradiction and confusion through plain verses of Scripture telling us that Satan has NEVER been good, nor has he ever been an angel of God, because God tells us the angels are spirits sent forth to minister to the heirs of salvation. Since the Bible tells us who and what Satan is and how he operates in the hearts and minds of man to deceive, lie, steal and kill, you and wpm refuse to show how Satan can be created good and also be a liar and murderer from the beginning so you try to deflect instead of addressing this FACT.

Lastly, why would I conclude that stars might symbolically represent angels since I've not found a single verse of Scripture to support that opinion?

Jesus said in John 8:44: “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”

The phase "the beginning" typically refers to the beginning of creation and earth. Just like the regeneration when Jesus comes refers to "the end" of creation and earth as we know it. Every solid theologian I know believes that Satan rebelled and fell before the beginning of creation and earth. He was a leader of the angelic host in. heaven.

When Jesus said that Satan was a murderer from the beginning, He was not saying that Satan was a murderer from the moment he was created. He was saying that Satan was a murderer from the beginning of creation. The enemy of our souls had already fallen and rebelled against God before that.

 

[WPM]

So here's what I say, William:



I say, like John indicates in Revelation 10:1-11... the vision of Revelation 10:1-11 speaks in a general fashion of John’s being empowered to continue to prophesy... the two witnesses of Revelation 11 are models for all the saints to imitate. All of us are to be faithful to the testimony of Jesus, even in the face of violent persecution from the Beast. We must be willing to face martyrdom, and God guarantees our vindication (vv. 11-12). Some aspects of this vision remain difficult and controversial. Some interpreters think that two literal individual human beings are in view: either two Christian prophets who were martyred shortly before the fall of Jerusalem, or two prophets who will appear shortly before the Second Coming. But in agreement with Revelation as a whole we find here a symbolic vision of Christian witness. The two witnesses are two lampstands (v. 4), indicating that they are symbolic figures standing for the witness of the lampstand-churches of 1:20. Thus they symbolize churches rather than specific human individuals. Two rather than seven lampstands are mentioned to imitate the pattern of Zechariah 4 and of Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3-4; cf. Deuteronomy 17:6; Luke 10:1).

Grace and peace to you.

I believe Moses and Elijah symbolically represent the written Word and the spoken word (inspired by the Holy Spirit). So the 2 witnesses are the Word and the Holy Spirit.