Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[rwb]

The king of Tyrus was not a type of a perfect Adam in the Garden. He is an example of a wicked tyrant who was full of pride who Satan worked through to do his evil. Tyrus was an example of what rebellion against God looks like. He is an example of fallen man not perfect man.

No, Tyrus was a not a type of "perfect Adam", but of fallen Adam, who is the beginning of the whole human race. Like Adam, Tyrus chose to heed the voice of evil/darkness, thinking himself to be wise and like God, a god himself, he became a fool.

 

[rwb]

The angels of heaven fought with Satan and his angels after Christ conquered sin, death, and hell. They marvelously defeated him and evicted him from heaven; Satan proved himself once again to be a loser.

The battle described in Rev 12 between Satan and his angels and Michael and His angels literally took place at the birth of Christ according to the context, not after Christ came and literally conquered sin and death. According to promise from creation Christ is the Lamb slain. Since the promises of God cannot be broken, that means that Christ from the foundation of the world has already conquered sin and death through His cross and resurrection. That's how even the faithful saints of Old who died before the coming of Christ to earth were saved according to promise.

The fact that Satan has always been a defeated foe is proven when God promised Adam & Eve a seed (Christ) born of the woman would come to crush the head (seed) of the serpent.

 

[rwb]

TribulationSigns noted:

<Greek word means "messenger.">

Yes, Greek ανγηλος = "messenger." Angels are messengers since they are often *sent* to perform tasks.

<The context of Matthew 18 is about the “little ones” — young believers>

The context is little children. They have guardian angels, they do not have personal human messengers.

<when Jesus says, “their angels do always behold the face of my Father ">

IMO this refers to the true temple in heaven, referenced in Hebrews 9:24.

>For example>
For your information:

o I had 4 years of Latin in high school.
o I had one year of New Testament Greek in college.
o I have the Oxford Greek Lexicon.
o I have the Oxford Latin Lexicon.
o I have the Koehler Baumgartner Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon.

Yes, angels are defined "messengers" that can be spirit or human. According to Scripture the angels/messengers of God are ministering spirits sent to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation.

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

 

[William Barton]

A star is a bright object in the sky. The ancients thought of the planets as "wandering stars" (Jude 13).

This concept can be extended, for example we speak of movie stars, that are attractive people.

Likewise bright angels and cherubim can be thought of as stars.

Angels are incredibly powerful. In Isaiah 37:36 and 2Kings 19:35 a single angel kills 185,000 Assyrians overnight.

 

[rwb]

<The Bible pattern is that stars represent angels.>

A star is a bright object in the sky. This concept can be extended, for example we speak of movie stars, that are attractive people.

Likewise angels and cherubim can be thought of as stars.

Angels are incredibly powerful. In Isaiah 37:36 and 2Kings 19:35 a single angel kills 185,000 Assyrians overnight.

Genesis 37:9 (KJV) And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Revelation 12:1 (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Do you agree that stars in these two Bible verses represent Israel of Old (people) not angels (spirits; heavenly or demonic)? If this is true, stars in Rev 12 also represent the third part of man from the nation of Old the dragon cast out of heaven down to the earth.

Revelation 12:7-11 (KJV) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

[TribulationSigns]

TribulationSigns noted:

<Greek word means "messenger.">

Yes, Greek ανγηλος = "messenger." Angels are messengers since they are often *sent* to perform tasks

Incorrect. Pastors, teachers, leaders are messengers who are sent by God to take care of the little children. Not literal angel to watch over children under 12 years old. Silly you.

<The context of Matthew 18 is about the “little ones” — young believers>

The context is little children. They have guardian angels, they do not have personal human messengers.

Little children, you say? Hmm… looks like you still have a lot to learn about how Scripture uses that phrase.

1st John 4:4-6

• "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
• They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
• We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."

So who are these “little children”? Toddlers watching cartoons on Sunday morning? Or believers in Christ?

John was speaking to Christians — believers of all ages — as God’s children. The same way a father calls his grown sons “my children,” God calls His people “little children.” That includes adults, elders, young believers, and even actual children. In God’s eyes, we are all His children.

Then look at 1st John 2:14-18:

1st John 2:14-18

• "I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
• Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
• For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
• And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
• Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

So according to some people’s logic, only kindergarten kids are supposed to understand the coming antichrist and recognize the last days? LOL!

No. John is addressing the body of believers. “Little children” or "little ones" are a spiritual relationship term, not a statement about physical age.

Adults are God’s little children.
Young believers are God’s little children.
Even mature Christians are still little children compared to the Father.

The context makes that painfully obvious if people would stop forcing childish modern assumptions into the text.

<when Jesus says, “their angels do always behold the face of my Father ">

IMO this refers to the true temple in heaven, referenced in Hebrews 9:24.

Sigh... you have no clues with what you are talking about. Do you even understand what "behold the face of my Father" really mean?!

For your information:

o I had 4 years of Latin in high school.
o I had one year of New Testament Greek in college.
o I have the Oxford Greek Lexicon.
o I have the Oxford Latin Lexicon.
o I have the Koehler Baumgartner Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon.

“For your information,” you say? (chuckle!)

You had 4 years of Latin, one year of New Testament Greek, and own several lexicons. Wonderful. But none of that automatically gives someone truth or spiritual understanding.

The Pharisees were highly educated in the Scriptures too, yet many completely missed what was right in front of them.

A stack of lexicons does not make tradition infallible.

The issue is not whether someone can define Greek words from a dictionary. The issue is whether the context of Scripture supports the interpretation being forced onto the text.

John repeatedly called believers “little children”:

“Ye are of God, little children…” (1 John 4:4)

Was John writing only to kids under 12? Of course not. He was addressing believers spiritually as children of God - the little ones that needs human messengers (pastor, teacher, etc.). Just like John the Baptist did with people his time where he was considered as angel (messenger).

The same pattern appears throughout Scripture. God speaks to His people relationally, not merely by physical age categories.

So you tried to quoting academic credentials as though they settle the debate is not impressive to me! Not at all! Church tradition has produced many educated people who STILL read assumptions into the text!

Knowledge of Greek and Hebrew can be useful. But education without discernment often just creates highly trained defenders of inherited tradition, like you and many others here! Like I said, you lacks spiritual discernment.

Good bye!

 

[WPM]

The prophetic use of cosmic imagery to describe historical rulers is not unique to Isaiah 14. Ezekiel uses Eden imagery to describe both the king of Tyre and Pharaoh of Egypt — without anyone arguing that either of these historical rulers was actually present in the Garden of Eden. The imagery is poetic intensification of historical reality, not an ontological description. Isaiah 14 points to a human king, described in the elevated language his own culture used for kings, brought low by the judgment of God.

Hey Tony!!!

This says it all! It is theological gibberish. You make sweeping statement without proving your claims or making any sense of context. That is because it negates your thesis.

You are wasting your time teaching others when you yourself need taught.

 

[WPM]

TribulationSigns noted:

<Greek word means "messenger.">

Yes, Greek ανγηλος = "messenger." Angels are messengers since they are often *sent* to perform tasks.

<The context of Matthew 18 is about the “little ones” — young believers>

The context is little children. They have guardian angels, they do not have personal human messengers.

<when Jesus says, “their angels do always behold the face of my Father ">

IMO this refers to the true temple in heaven, referenced in Hebrews 9:24.

>For example>
For your information:

o I had 4 years of Latin in high school.
o I had one year of New Testament Greek in college.
o I have the Oxford Greek Lexicon.
o I have the Oxford Latin Lexicon.
o I have the Koehler Baumgartner Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon.

You are going to shoot over the heads of some here because theological absolutes are constantly spiritualized away when they conflict with what they have been taught by Tony Warren.

 

[WPM]

The battle described in Rev 12 between Satan and his angels and Michael and His angels literally took place at the birth of Christ according to the context, not after Christ came and literally conquered sin and death. According to promise from creation Christ is the Lamb slain. Since the promises of God cannot be broken, that means that Christ from the foundation of the world has already conquered sin and death through His cross and resurrection. That's how even the faithful saints of Old who died before the coming of Christ to earth were saved according to promise.

The fact that Satan has always been a defeated foe is proven when God promised Adam & Eve a seed (Christ) born of the woman would come to crush the head (seed) of the serpent.

Wrong again! It had to happen in time for it to be realized. It was only when Jesus said "it is finished" that the punishment for finished was made. It was only then that the dead in Christ could be delivered from Hades and taken to heaven. This is when Christ ascended and overthrew Satan, evicting him from heaven when the man-child was caught up to heaven. He was the first to conquer sin, death and Hades.

Let the Bible speak for itself.

 

[WPM]

No, Tyrus was a not a type of "perfect Adam", but of fallen Adam, who is the beginning of the whole human race. Like Adam, Tyrus chose to heed the voice of evil/darkness, thinking himself to be wise and like God, a god himself, he became a fool.

Oh, so it is not talking about Tyrus here? LOL. I thought you said it was?

• Satan was in Eden, the Garden of God (v. 13)
• Satan was “the anointed” or “covering cherub” (v. 14)
• Satan was blameless in his ways from the day he was created, till unrighteousness was found in him. (v. 15)
• Satan was proud because of his beauty. He corrupted God’s wisdom for the sake of his own prideful splendour.
• Satan was the “covering cherub” who was laid low by pride and expelled by God from heaven before creation. cast to the ground, with the evil angels (v. 17).

 

[WPM]

Yes, angels are defined "messengers" that can be spirit or human. According to Scripture the angels/messengers of God are ministering spirits sent to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation.

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Ps 34:7 The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

Satan would want would want to destroy all of us. But God has angels around His people not only guarding us from evil but delivering us in the hour of need. These angels are arrayed with great power and are not to be messed with. Angels in Scripture are both messengers and they are protectors. They are there to deliver us when we are in a tight spot.

Psalm 91:11 assures us: For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

God’s angels are active to preserve us in our Christian walk. His angels who are given guard over His people are angels of fire.

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

The angels in general are protectors of God’s people. They watch out for them. After all, there is an invisible demonic host that is constantly out to destroy the redeemed. This passage highlights the high value God places on protecting and caring for the vulnerable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ezekiel 28: Another Human King

Another passage used to construct the Lucifer story is Ezekiel 28. First, read what God says right at the beginning:

Ezekiel 28:2 Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God... yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God.

The passage states that the subject of Ezekiel 28 is the king of Tyre — another ancient ruler, over a great trading empire on the Mediterranean coast. The King of Tyre had grown so rich and powerful that he was calling himself God. Ezekiel was sent to tell him exactly how far short of God he fell. The passage then uses rich poetic language to describe the king's glory and his fall. He was in Eden, the garden of God. He was covered with precious stones and He was the anointed cherub. He was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him.

Is this passage describing a mere human king? Consider that the prophet Ezekiel uses exactly the same Eden imagery in chapter 31 to describe Pharaoh of Egypt. The Eden language was prophetic poetry describing a ruler who had been given extraordinary, God-given favor — and who then was corrupted by pride. It is the story of human corruption, not the story of a supernatural being.

The Verse That Seems Most Difficult

A difficult verse to apply to a human king is Ezekiel 28:14: Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth. Many conclude the subject must be an angel.

Yet, the verse says before that: the text has already declared thou art a man. Reading the passage as poetic imagery compliments an identification the text supplies. A man can be described in royal, even celestial terms in prophetic poetry — especially a man who had been given such extraordinary, God-given position as the king of Tyre. The poetic language expresses the magnitude of what was lost.

Moreover, nowhere in all of Scripture is Satan ever associated with the cherubim. The cherubim guard holy things, Such as the entrance to Eden and the mercy seat. They are associated with the holiness and the presence of God. Jesus said that Satan has been a murderer from the beginning and has never stood in the truth (John 8:44). A murderer is not an anointed guardian of holy space.

Never Shalt Thou Be Any More

Ezekiel 28:19 says of this figure: thou shalt be terrified, and never shalt thou be any more. Yet, Satan is not nonexistent. Revelation tells us he continues to operate until he is finally cast into the lake of fire.

If the passage is speaking of the king of Tyre and the civilization he represented — as the historical and literary context indicates — then the verse finds its fulfillment in recorded history. The ancient city of Tyre was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar and later by Alexander the Great, who built a causeway to the island city and destroyed it completely. The Phoenician trading empire never rose again. The text’s narrative and the historical record coincide.

What the Bible Says About Satan

If Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 do not explicitly establish a satanic referent, what does the New Testament itself say about the adversary — without appeal to those passages? The picture is more limited, and more consistent, than the tradition suggests.


John 8:44 He was a murderer from the beginning, and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.


1 John 3:8 The devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.


From the beginning, Satan has been a murderer and a liar. These texts do not describe a prior period of holiness for this figure. Jesus does not say Satan fell from holiness — He says Satan has never stood in truth at all.

The only verse that connects Satan with the word light is 2 Corinthians 11:14, which says Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. The Greek word there is not transform — it is masquerade. It describes an actor putting on a costume, not a being who genuinely possesses what he is pretending to be. What is Satan's origin then? Genesis 3:1 tells us that the serpent was one of the beasts of the field that the LORD God had made. God made him. Job 26:13 says: his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. Isaiah 54:16 is perhaps the most striking statement of all:

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

God created the waster. What that means for the relationship between divine sovereignty and moral evil is precisely the question the text raises without fully resolving — and by the presupposition of this book, that open question should be preserved rather than closed. The interpretive shift extend beyond any discussion of Satan’s origin. Once the origin of the adversary is questioned, the broader question of the origin and function of evil within the Biblical framework must also be re-examined. That question is taken up directly in the passages that follow.

But dismantling the traditional Lucifer story raises an immediate question that most readers will feel before they can articulate it. If Satan didn't create evil — if he never had that kind of independent power — then where did evil come from? And what does that mean about God? The answer the text gives is unsettling and disruptive to what most of us were taught.

Guess you have to wait until my book comes out...

Scripture teaches that everything God created was very good (Genesis 1:31). So, why do you believe that God created Satan and his angels to be very bad instead?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Genesis 37:9 (KJV) And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Revelation 12:1 (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Do you agree that stars in these two Bible verses represent Israel of Old (people) not angels (spirits; heavenly or demonic)? If this is true, stars in Rev 12 also represent the third part of man from the nation of Old the dragon cast out of heaven down to the earth.

Revelation 12:7-11 (KJV) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Do you not believe in the existence of evil angels/spirits/demons? Why would a reference to Satan's angels be referring to "the third part of man from the nation of Old" rather than evil angels/spirits/demons that Satan rules over?

Do you think the following is referring to the goats/unbelievers being cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and "the third part of man from the nation of Old"?

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hey Tony!!!

This says it all! It is theological gibberish. You make sweeping statement without proving your claims or making any sense of context. That is because it negates your thesis.

You are wasting your time teaching others when you yourself need taught.

Is he Tony Warren? The guy who has led @TribulationSigns astray with his false teaching?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh, so it is not talking about Tyrus here? LOL. I thought you said it was?

• Satan was in Eden, the Garden of God (v. 13)
• Satan was “the anointed” or “covering cherub” (v. 14)
• Satan was blameless in his ways from the day he was created, till unrighteousness was found in him. (v. 15)
• Satan was proud because of his beauty. He corrupted God’s wisdom for the sake of his own prideful splendour.
• Satan was the “covering cherub” who was laid low by pride and expelled by God from heaven before creation. cast to the ground, with the evil angels (v. 17).

Agree. I can't believe these guys continue to stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that Satan is a created being who, like the rest of creation, was created very good (Genesis 1:31) and then rebelled against God. They are so deceived that they convince themselves that some human could possibly be called the anointed cherub who protected the holy mountain of God and that this human was somehow cast out of heaven. LOL. Such nonsense.

 

[WPM]

Is he Tony Warren? The guy who has led @TribulationSigns astray with his false teaching?

Sounds like him

 

[William Barton]

Genesis 37:9 (KJV) And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Revelation 12:1 (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Do you agree that stars in these two Bible verses represent Israel of Old (people) not angels (spirits; heavenly or demonic)? If this is true, stars in Rev 12 also represent the third part of man from the nation of Old the dragon cast out of heaven down to the earth.

Revelation 12:7-11 (KJV) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

My opinion:
o The woman is the nation Israel.
o The sun is Jacob.
o The moon is Jacob's wife Rachael--and by extension his wife Leah, as well as his concubine Bilhah, and Leah's maid Zilpah, all of whom bore sons to Jacob.
o The twelve stars are the twelve sons of Jacob, progenitors of the twelve tribes of Israel.
o The crown configuration is the preeminence of Israel, as God's chosen people.

 

[rwb]

<The Bible pattern is that stars represent angels.>

My opinion:
o The woman is the nation Israel.
o The sun is Jacob.
o The moon is Jacob's wife Rachael--and by extension his wife Leah, as well as his concubine Bilhah, and Leah's maid Zilpah, all of whom bore sons to Jacob.
o The twelve stars are the twelve sons of Jacob, progenitors of the twelve tribes of Israel.
o The crown configuration is the preeminence of Israel, as God's chosen people.

Hopefully then you can understand why requoting another poster saying, "the Bible pattern is that stars represent angels" is not accurate but is an attempt to force one's opinion into the Bible, because stars in the Bible often represent people, not angels.

 

[rwb]

Wrong again! It had to happen in time for it to be realized. It was only when Jesus said "it is finished" that the punishment for finished was made. It was only then that the dead in Christ could be delivered from Hades and taken to heaven. This is when Christ ascended and overthrew Satan, evicting him from heaven when the man-child was caught up to heaven. He was the first to conquer sin, death and Hades.

Let the Bible speak for itself.

I will allow the Bible to speak; the question will you hear/listen?

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV) For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

It's a mistake to question the promises of God from the foundation of the world!

 

[WPM]

I will allow the Bible to speak; the question will you hear/listen?

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV) For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

It's a mistake to question the promises of God from the foundation of the world!

You and your teachers are yet to lay a punch on the Op. What are you scared of?