1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Satans Fall

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by bud02, Dec 6, 2010.

  1. veteran

    veteran New Member

    Likes Received:
    That's understandable. But today, Historicism, Preterism, I'm not seeing much difference between the two schools. In the past, Historicists saw 70 A.D. as fulfillment of much of Matt.24, but still recognized a future return of our Lord Jesus. Partial Preterism used to have a similar view.
  2. veteran

    veteran New Member

    Likes Received:

    You asked for specifics, and now you go into generalizations that make no sense?

    You must have failed English grammar for not following the subject in context. That's what an English teacher would do with the way you jumped around the Hebrews 9 verses. Following the subject context per the rules of grammar reveals what timing the Heb.9:28 verse speaks of.

    Heb 9:24-28
    24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
    25 Nor yet that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
    26 For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
    27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    Heb.9:24-26 -- After Christ's Resurrection and Ascension
    9:27-28 -- Judgment timing associated with Christ appearing "the second time"

    Christ Ascended to The Father AFTER His 40 days Ministry with His Apostles after His resurrection. Since then, He has never appeared on earth to the world a second time. His second coming is still expecting, even as Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15, which also like this Hebrews 9 Scripture was written AFTER Christ's Ascension to The Father.

    Now if you say the Judgment is past already, then it proves my point even the more of how deluded Preterist doctrines of men are. Heb.9:28 is a summary, the first part about Christ's first coming to die on the cross to His Ascension time, and the last part of the verse about His future return with Judgment timing (Rom.14:10-12). The last nine chapters of Ezekiel reveal what Christ's Salvation at His return will be like, and that has not come yet today.

    I have no problem with the 'word' preter itself, which simply means what is past. There's a lot of Bible Scripture that is past history, but that's not what the doctrines of Preterism is about today. It's being used as a vain doctrine to count Biblical events yet future as being already fulfilled today.

    Instead of just trying to push the Preterist doctrines of men you've listened to on Matt.24, why don't you simply read Matt.24 for yourself?

    Matt 24:22-36
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    25 Behold, I have told you before.
    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.

    Christ gives signs of warning about a specific pseudo messiah coming ("false Christ's" = Greek pseudochristos, which means 'a pseudo Christ'). It is the same subject of the "another Jesus" deception which Aposlte Paul warned of in 2 Corinthians 11, and in 2 Thessalonians 2 about the son of perdition and man of sin coming to sit in the Temple of God to show that he is God. It's the same subject of the "another beast" of Rev.13 that comes in like a lamb, but speaks as the dragon, working great signs and wonders on earth in the sight of men to deceive the world. That's about the future "great tribulation" timing Christ warns of there, and not about the Romans of 69 A.D. No false messiah has ever appeared on earth given the power of mircles to 'almost' deceive Christ's own elect. That's one of the requirements, which none among the Romans of 69 A.D. ever fit that sign. Instead, the Jerusalem Temple was destroyed before the Romans could ever gain possession of it in 69 A.D.

    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Christ gives how His return will be, in contrast to that false messiah's way of coming. NO REPORT of Christ coming like lightning shining from the east to the west has EVER been recorded in history, not in 69 A.D., and not even up to today. That is how obvious to the world Christ's return will be like. Any non-obvious return of Christ reported is falsehood, and that's exactly what Full or extreme Preterism is teaching today. Preterism thus denies this Matt.24:27 sign of Christ's return altogether.

    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    Christ gave the rest of this 'carcase' Message at the end of Luke 17. It's about those 'taken' in deception in the last days by that pseudochristos. His disciples asked Him 'where' the first ones in the field would be taken to, and He gave this metaphor about being gathered to false eagles (vultures) that go after what is dead. They are gathered as dead carcases among birds that go after what is already dead, a symbol for Satan's host.

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    That's a major pointer showing those events did not happen in 69 A.D., nor at anytime thereafter, but is still yet future. Immediately after the tribulation of those particular days, the sign of Christ's coming is to appear, which per the previous verses is to be obvious to the world. It is to include His angels with the sound of the trumpet gathering His elect saints, which has yet to happen. Per Zech.14 Christ's saints are to be gathered to Jerusalem where Christ returns. That has never happenned per history either, but it will happen just as it's written in God's Word. It is also linked to the subject of the resurrection Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15.

    Thusly, because those signs have yet to happen, that tribulation has not yet happenned today either.

    32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
    till all these things be fulfilled.
    Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

    Evidently Preterism has a problem with simple English words too, since Christ says the particular generation He was pointing to there is about the generation when ALL those things be fulfilled. ALL those things have yet to be fulfilled today. Anyone who can think for theirself then knows that means that generation is about the last generation on earth when Christ returns to gather His saints to where He will be, as written.

    Doctrines that preach against Christ's future coming and gathering of His saints as written do not originate from Christian Doctrine at all. Holy Writ about Christ's future LITERAL return and gathering of His saints is just as plainly written as Scripture about His first coming to die on the cross. The Scriptures are that obvious. It's such a simply written prophecy that those who refuse reveal their beliefs are coming from somewhere else other than from God's Holy Writ.

    Texus, since you hold to that no literal return of Christ lie, I have nothing more to say to you. Your credibility is in the shambles, and you need to repent to Christ before it's too late.

  3. TexUs

    TexUs New Member

    Likes Received:
    I read the end of your post first considering you tried to slander me at the end of your last post a bit more subtlety, and I'm glad I did:
    I'm not sure who's lying. Me, who never said that, or you, who is claiming words from my mouth that never were.

    "THE coming for all of mankind is yet to be."
    "I do believe Christ came a second time in 70AD to destroy the temple, but "THE" coming is still future."

    I have no problem addressing the passages you've posted, however I will not do it with someone so hell-bent on slander instead of just discussing the scripture.

  4. 242006

    242006 New Member

    Likes Received:
    IMO, most into eschatology are 'historicist' to a certain extent. When one attempts to analyze the parable of the fig tree, the historical event of Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 is used. This event is also used for Dan. 12 etc. Hence, I would be an extreme hypocrite if I summarily dismissed all Historcists as Bible hacks merely for attempting to link historical events to Bible prophecy.

    Of course, one can research the internet to get an idea of classic Historicism and where it intersects with classic Preterism. I have yet to see bud02 conform himself to any classic Historicist belief except being anti-Catholic. Perhaps, his rambling writings are more familiar to you. When he cannot make a coherent point, I have a tendency to tune out.
  5. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

    Likes Received:

    In the interest of putting a finer point on prophetic interpretation and perhaps to stir up conversation a little I submit the following for consideration:

    The Lucifer Myth

    There is no such person, character, or accurate representation of a personality by the name of Lucifer anywhere in the Bible. Try a search and see what happens. The name Lucifer is most often associated with the planet Venus (morning star) rather than any personality.

    Isaiah 14:4-20 is the most popular reference to the character, but it's an indirect one as the passage itself specifically states that its a "parable against the king of Babylon". Several commentaries I've consulted agree that any similarity between the king of Babylon/morning star/Lucifer and the devil is purely a metaphorical one.

    Are the Bible verses self-interpreting?
    Should the passage be taken literally as meaning the Babylonian king or figuratively as the devil?

    Similarly Ezekiel 28:12-18 is a passage directly referencing the King of Tyre (or Tyrus) and not the devil. Some commentaries mention that these verses are also used as an allegory for background to the devil. However, they are rarely employed as scripture intended. Instead the verses are implied to have some sort of insight that is not their literal intention. Does the Bible carry a meaning it does not literally intend (ie: refering to satan, not the king as it says in verse)?

    My point:
    Studies regarding the origins of the devil may be walking on thin ice when using these passages as proof of origins, methods or motives especially when the Biblical passages are clearly intended to be taken literally by the writers.

    Satan's Fall - Later Than We Thought?

    Many interpretations of Satan's fall from grace assume that the creature fell to earth as a result of a spiritual war and that the actual date of the fall coincides with or preceeds the Eden story in Genesis 3. However, if we take the Bible literally, the commonly held interpretation creates a problem with the narration in Revelation 12:1-9.

    And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered. And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems. And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child.
    Rev 12:1-4

    The passage above introduces a spiritual and temporal struggle, beginning in heaven. The woman in the narrative is generally assumed to be Mary, the mother of Jesus the Son of God. The child she is about to deliver is Jesus. The great dragon is satan, self-interpreted by scripture in the following group of verses.

    Watch closely now.......The curious point of the narrative in verses 1-4 is that satan is waiting for Mary to be delivered of her child Jesus. As of the end of verse four the war in heaven still rages and Mary hasn't yet given birth. The story continues in verses 5 thru 9;

    And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels; And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
    Rev 12:5-9

    In verse 5 Mary gives birth. If we didn't already guess that the child was Jesus, the scripture interprets that as well. After it talks about hiding Mary from the devil it states that open war is happening in heaven. Michael and his angels fight with satan and win. At the end of the passage it says that satan and his angels lose the fight and are literally 'grounded' upon the earth. No more heaven, no more flying around with the proper angels.

    If we take the meaning of these verses literally, then the actual fall of satan from heaven either coincides with the actual birth of Jesus or shortly after he is "caught up unto God and unto his throne". Could it be that Christ's war with satan upon the earth actually coincided with Michaels' battle in heaven? Could it be that Jesus' death upon the cross and subsequent resurrection was more of a victory than any of us could guess?

    I came upon these LITERAL interpretations of scripture while doing research for spiritual warfare. If we are to take the Bible seriously and literally in its meaning and in its words, then a whole new view of satan's war with Michael and with us becomes apparent. The sacrifice of Christ upon the cross then takes on a more focused meaning. It happens in the last days as scripture says it does. What last days? The last days of peace upon the earth. Christ arrives to engage the enemy just as it falls to earth to plague men.

    My point:
    Literal, self-interpreting verses of scripture seem to be at odds with the commonly accepted dates, places and times of satan's fall from grace. If our enemy fell from grace sometime during Our Lord's incarnation upon the earth, instead of millenia earlier, how does this impact our theology?

    Is this a pipe dream or a clearer view of history than we have previously embraced? What say you?
  6. veteran

    veteran New Member

    Likes Received:
    rjp, I would have thought that you understood how God was giving a parable in that Isaiah 14 example about Satan.

    Our Lord Jesus gave a parable about the sower sowing seed. The plant seed object is real, so are the wayside, thorns, and stones in the soil He mentioned. But is that all He was talking about, just agriculture of sowing plant seed? No, for He was giving a parable.

    Isa 14:4
    4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

    Likewise in Isaiah 14, God was giving us a parable (proverb, Hebrew mashal). That means from the start of Isa.14:4 He intends us to understand He's speaking of something more than just the king of Babylon.

    To miss when the idea of parable is being given, that is the act of Legalism, which is not the same idea of understanding The Bible literally. With a parable, the objects used to convey a deeper truth are still literal objects. They are simply used in the form of analogy or simile, a component in all languages of the world, not just Biblical languages.

    The bramble example in Judges 9 is a parable, but its meaning is not revealed there either, but later, in other parts of God's Word.

    The word "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14 is a Latin word for Venus. The KJV translators added it in place of Hebrew for 'morning star'. Yet, they did put "O day starre" in the margin of the 1st edition KJV Bible, to let the reader know. Only Jesus Christ is The True Morning Star, per His Revelation. That is a major pointer to look deeper than just the flesh king of Babylon.

    Likewise in Ezekiel 28, God is giving another parable. However, there He doesn't tell us directly it is a parable or proverb. He really didn't need to, because, He gave two MAJOR pointers in Ezek.28 that shows He was not just speaking of flesh kings. He mentioned one who had been in His Garden of Eden, and that was a cherub...

    Ezek 28:13-15
    13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
    14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    If someone wants to look foolish, they can try to argue that the flesh prince or king of Tyrus was a cherub in God's Garden of Eden.

    I have yet to find anyone able to exstinguish that point. God made it clear He was not speaking of flesh kings with that kind of metaphorical reference to Satan. But was He speaking about the flesh prince and king of Tyrus in that chapter also? Yes, of course, but not in those verse sections about that cherub.

  7. veteran

    veteran New Member

    Likes Received:
    You're placing Mary in that too early.

    Revelation 12:1-2 is about the start of the Seed of the Woman represeting the Seed line Christ would later be born through. It started with Eve, not Mary. Genesis 37 later defines the "woman" as Rachel, Jacob's (Israel) wife, and the 12 stars as the twelve tribes. That was before Mary's time also. But of course Mary is included in the Seed of the Woman, but not until Rev.12:5 about the Man Child as our Lord Jesus Christ Who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron. The "child" in Rev.12:4 is about Abel, the child of the Seed which Satan devoured through Cain, after the emnity had begun.

    Rev.12:1-5 is a short summary from the time of Satan's rebellion, to his time as "that old serpent" in God's Garden ready to devour the child of the symbolic woman (Eve and her son Abel in that time). And then in verse 5 it's about our Lord Jesus being born through Mary.

    Rev.12:3-4 shows Satan's time of original rebellion against God. We know from God's Word it had to have been prior to the time of Adam and Eve, because Satan as "that old serpent" was already at work against God's Plan with Adam and Eve in God's Eden. So jumping right to Mary in Rev.12:1 is getting off on the wrong foot from the start, and changes your whole idea about the time of Satan's fall.

  8. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

    Likes Received:

    Veteran your study methods are found extremely wanting. You have disregarded the "whole" context of Ezek 28 all becuase you desire to see devils.

    [sup]1[/sup]The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

    [sup]2[/sup]Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

    [sup]13[/sup]Thou (prince of Tyre) hast been in Eden* the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

    [sup]14[/sup]Thou (prince of Tyre) art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    * Before we consider the above you may also like to review the figurative language used of Pharaoh, king of Egypt who is also depicted as being a cedar in Lebanon taller than any of the other trees of Eden (trees are used here symbolically for nations). (Ezek. 31:2, 3, 8, 9, 16, 18).

    Please note: the reference to Eden does not suggest at all that Pharaoh lived at the same time as Adam and Eve.

    It must be said, if this passage is used support a supernatural monster with its current context and lessons here presented what exactly warrants the introduction this make believe being?

    What does this monster have to do with the King of Tyre?

    "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." (Ezek 28: 15).

    For those who would argue against this referring to the literal king of Tyre because it mentions he was "perfect". We find the Hebrew word "tamim" translated "perfect" means "perfect, plain, whole, complete". Noah was a "just man and perfect" (Gen. 6:9 - same Hebrew word, "tamim"), but there is no question of him being an angel. Also Job is mentioned as being perfect “Tam” and we know he also was not an angel.

    Those who like to twist this section of Scripture sometimes argue the literal king of Tyre would have been procreated, not created (Ezek 28:13, 15), allowing them say it was an angel. But again Hebrew word, "bara" translated "create" means "to be prepared, formed, created." The exact same word is used for the creation of "people" in Psa. 102:18) and the Ammonites in Ezek. 21:30. Clearly from these passages the word “bara” cannot imply the creation of angels.

    We find the King of Tyre held a very privileged position with regards to his relationship with Israel. King David and Hiram had been close friends (2 Sam. 5:11; 1 Kings 5:1, 6, 7, 10) the record reveals and Hiram and Solomon had made a league in which Hiram supplied materials for the building of the temple. (1 Kings 5:12, 17, 18). The language here in Ezek. 28:13-18 is used symbolically for the relationship of Israel and Tyre (inferring divine favour which rested upon Tyre because of its close association with Israel).

    Consider the following:

    "Every precious stone was thy covering" (Ezek 28:13); "thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." (Ezek 28:14).

    Clearly in reference to the stones set in the breastplate of the high priest of Israel. (Exod. 39:10-14). To Israel they are "stones of fire" in that they shone forth a brilliant light of the Shekinah glory of the sanctuary. These stones as we are told symbolized the twelve tribes of Israel. (Exod. 39:1).

    But how do these stones relate to the King of Tyre?

    We are being told he walked in the midst of these stones of fire when he was allowed by God to move among the children of Israel (as in the preparation of the materials for the temple). And being associated with Israel and receiving the promised blessings in Abraham. Gen 12:3

    Israel provided a "covering" for Tyre on the basis of the decree in Genesis 12:3: 'I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee". God blessed the house of Potiphar because of Joseph:

    ". . . the LORD blessed the Egyptian's house for Joseph's sake; and the blessing of the LORD was upon all that he had in the house, and in the field." (Gen. 39:5). In the same way here in Ezek 28 Tyre was "covered" by Israel covenant relationship with God.

    "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth." (Ezek 28:14). The cherubim were figures of beaten gold at either end of the mercy seat. (Exod. 37:7-9). Their wings overshadowed the mercy seat with which they were of one piece. (Exod. 25:19, 20). Although the translation of the Hebrew is uncertain, (accepting the A.V.), the suggestion may be that Tyre as a great mercantile power was privileged to cast its "wings" over Israel It was the abuse of this exalted position that was a factor in the ruin of Tyre. (Ezek 28: 4, 5).

    "Thou wast upon the holy mountain of God." (Ezek 28:14). This mountain is no other than Mt. Zion, the future capital city of God's house of prayer for all people. (Isa. 2:2, 3; 56:7). Heaven is a Spiritual realm and to imply this holy mountain is speaking of Heaven is in error. This "holy mountain of God" is on the earth (See Ezek. 20:40).

    "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities." (Ezek. 28:18).

    I find this verse very interesting as it “may” imply the King of Tyre set up some forms of worship comparable to Israel. Hiram was "ever a lover of David" and rejoiced with Solomon in the building of the temple. 1 Kings 5:1-12. So it makes sense the king of Tyre learned about God's kingdom in Israel from these two kings of Israel.

    Tyre's sanctuaries were located in Israel when God showed favour to the King. I believe the King failed to appreciate the privileged position she had with Israel.

    You will recall when Nebuchadnezzar took Jerusalem (586 B.C.), the prince of Tyrus uttered "Aha, the gate of the peoples is broken, it has swung open to me; I shall be replenished, now that she is laid waste." (Ezek 26:2 R.S.V.). From his heart in place of blessing Israel he decreed a curse Gen. 12:3: "I will . . . curse him that curseth thee." Often is the case when nations and empire become great in their own minds they fall. Tyre had become self centred in its economic interests in this Tyre would be reduced to ashes.

    "I will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee." (Ezek 28:18). The moment Tyre entered this relationship with Israel it was impossible to end it with impunity. Like that example of Nadab and Abihu if you mistreat that which is sacred and holy it will only result in a “ fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD." (Lev. 10:2).

    The lesson for me is clearly the witnessing of Israel to the surrounding Nations; in blessing these nations God would hope they would see God through His marvellous works but often the case like Sodom and Gomorrah. God would only tolerate their sinfulness and visit them with judgement. (Gen. 19:24, 25).

    Context always reveals truth.

  9. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

    Likes Received:

    Like Jesus and the writers of the NT? They clearly believed in the devil. Why don't you?

    Revelation 12:9 (NKJV)
    [sup]9 [/sup]So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

  10. veteran

    veteran New Member

    Likes Received:

    Placing "prince of Tyre" into the Scripture is meaningless, simply because NOW you MUST prove that the flesh prince of Tyre was...

    1. In God's Garden of Eden, and...

    2. That the prince of Tyre was an anointed cherub

    Let's see you prove that. Then we all will see who is actually throwing away the real context of that Scripture.

  11. veteran

    veteran New Member

    Likes Received:
    For others that may not be aware, a cherub or cherubim (plural) is a Heavenly type being, not a flesh being like us.

    Exod 25:18-21
    18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
    19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
    20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
    21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

    God told Israel to make an ark to place His Testimony in. It was to have a Mercy Seat in the center with two cherubims, one on each side, with their wings outstretched to cover the Mercy Seat. That's the meaning of Ezek.28:14 part about an anointed cherub that covereth.

    2 Sam 22:7-11
    7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and He did hear my voice out of His temple, and my cry did enter into His ears.
    8 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because He was wroth.
    9 There went up a smoke out of His nostrils, and fire out of His mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
    10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under His feet.
    11 And He rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and He was seen upon the wings of the wind.

    That description is also written in Psalms 18. God rode upon a cherub.

    Ezek 10:1-2
    1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.
    2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city. And he went in in my sight.

    That's what the idea in Ezek.28:14 of the anointed cherub there walking up and down in the stones of fire is about. It means right in the presence of God's Throne.

    Gen 3:23-24
    23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
    24 So he drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

    The Tree of Life is still being guarded today by those Heavenly Cherubims at God's Eden; it's in the Heavenly.

    Since Adam and Eve were moved out of God's Garden of Eden, NO flesh has ever been there since. The prince or king of Tyre certainly has NEVER been there. Nor is ANY flesh born man a Cherub.
  12. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

    Likes Received:
    Veteran, I am sure you are suffeciently skilled in the Word to see the wonderful context of Ezek 28. Gods divine view of the King of Tyre and his impending destruction is the key to the symbology . Maybe these beautiful lessons are lost on you? I hope your pursuit of devils has not blinded you to the deep message hidden within this passage.

    For instance the promises to Abraham being upheld by God in Gen 12 is something to marvel at. How so many generations after Abraham’s death, God is still acting upon those personal & national promises. "I will bless those & I will curse those". Maybe others here with less bias may see the treasures hidden here.

    Dont you love the language of God allowing the King to walk amongst the stones of fire. I must dig out my studies on the breastplate and thier future fulfillment.

    In the Masters Service

  13. martinlawrencescott

    martinlawrencescott Servant Prince

    Likes Received:
    "Maybe these beautiful lessons are lost on you? I hope your pursuit of devils has not blinded you to the deep message hidden within this passage."

    Hey Alethos,

    As your brother in Christ I want to confront you about talking like this. I feel a cut in my spirit when it happens, even when it isn't directed at me. The point of kindness isn't to be able to say cutting remarks in a kind way. I know people on this forum haven't treated you in the kindest way because you differ on many viewpoints, but there is a right way to demonstrate your opinion of someone elses view, and there is ^ that way. Truth itself will offend us to the core of our being. Nothing; our ideas or opinions of other's truth needs to be added to it in order to make truth any more true. But we will prove what we truly believe when we say or do things one way or another.

    I understand your heart and you demonstrate you live by this passage well in your desire for Truth:

    [sup]James 5:19[/sup] My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, [sup]20[/sup] remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

    But also remember

    [sup]1 Peter 1:22[/sup] Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.[sup][b][/sup] [sup]23[/sup] For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. [sup]24[/sup] For, <P sizset="39" sizcache="1"> “All people are like grass,
    and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
    the grass withers and the flowers fall,
    [sup]25[/sup] but the word of the Lord endures forever.”[sup][c][/sup] And this is the word that was preached to you.

    We have to also remember that the word that was preached to us in imperishable and our obedience to God's will is demonstrated by our sincere love for each other. We have to trust God is faithful to continue to water the imperishable seed of His truth in all of our hearts; which both begins and continues without end through Christ as seen by His loving work on the cross. In this love we find common ground.
  14. veteran

    veteran New Member

    Likes Received:

    A commendable rebuke, if the rebuked would listen. Otherwise...

    Titus 1:13-14
    13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
    14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

  15. martinlawrencescott

    martinlawrencescott Servant Prince

    Likes Received:
    I gave it to him because I respect him and believe there are a lot of good things he has to say. I wish I knew Alethos, but can only assume from the understanding he presents that His search for truth has brought him to a place beyond the mere gathering of knowledge but to the point of applicable experience. Hopefully this will help keep what is said to what is necessary, kind, and beneficial as would be in his best interest. But when I say it I'm saying the same thing to myself and everyone else on the forum.
  16. veteran

    veteran New Member

    Likes Received:

    I see you keep on quoting yourself instead of answering my question. Is that how this Forum works, with one quoting theirself?

    Your insinuations against me are meaningless, even childish, and have nothing to do with answering my question to you about Ezek.28. It simply shows others your inability to reply to my question.

    As for being given to understand the Ezekiel 28 chapter, you leave a lot of the subject out, and it's apparent that's done on purpose. So trying to infer how well you understand it only further proves my point of your inability to answer my question. But here it is again...

    You say the one that was in God's Garden of Eden, and as an "anointed cherub" per those Ezek.28 verses, is only about the flesh prince or king of Tyrus.

    So prove to us Biblically how a flesh king like the king of Tyre was in God's Eden, and is an "anointed cherub that covereth."

  17. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

    Likes Received:
    Question 1

    Ezek 28:13Thou (prince of Tyre) hast been in Eden* the garden of God (symbol of Israel) ; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

    You may want to study the stones to appreciate their significance here.

    Stones are found in the Breast Plate of the Hign Priest, they are highly symbolic of the 12 tribes of Israel. Veteran, if you disagree here you are most certainly in error.

    The connection between the Garden of God & The stones in the Breat Plate is equal to saying “King of Tyre, you have been in my land and amidst My People” The language is known to the Jews becuase they understood these symbols perfectly.

    Eden the Garden of God – Is symbolic as God still views the territory and the people as his precious Garden, see future fulfillment Ezek 33. Styled the Garden restored – Prophecy below for your reference.

    33Thus says the Lord God: In the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities I will [also] cause [Israel's] cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt. 34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, that which had lain desolate in the sight of all who passed by. 35And they shall say, This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden, and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited. 36Then the nations that are left round about you shall know that I the Lord have rebuilt the ruined places and replanted that which was desolate. I the Lord have spoken it, and I will do it. Ezek 36:33-36

    Question 2

    "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth." (Ezek 28:14).

    The expression is a Divine viewpoint of the extend God had allowed him into Israel territory. God is using the symbol of the Cherub not as the King as an actual Angelic being but what the imagery of the Cherub in its function (the spreading its wings). Note the wings are not spread out in the Most Holy!!!! (another lesson here)

    The cherubim were figures of beaten gold at either end of the mercy seat. (Exod. 37:7-9). Their wings overshadowed the mercy seat with which they were of one piece. Exod 25:19.20. The King was given this privileged responsibility as a result of his relationship with Israel. In other words he cast his "wings" over Israel through trade. The word covereth the far reaching aspect of his influence in Israel.

    Anointed = Approved of God

    Cherub = Symbol of his wings

    Covereth = Means a Hedge – This Cherub (King) had taken shelter within the “hedge” of Israel’s protection! A protection afforded them by Almighty God and no one else. It is he who protects and disciplines and none other. All symbols point to the King being in the midst of Gods People and Land.


    The King - Walking upon the Mountains of Israel – esp. His Holy Mountain

    The King - Walking within the Stones of Fire – Tribes of Israel

    The King - Walking within the Garden of God - Israel

    Of course Ezek 28:15,16 revealed the King’s motives were sinful and he was taken out of Israel’s Hedge (borders) in a graphc fulfillment of Bible propechy which stands to this day.

    He abused this exalted position by God that was a factor in the ruin of Tyre in (Ezek 28: 4, 5).

    Ezek 28:12 shows us how wonderful a “lamentation” this is from the Divine Mind (God) of a man whose heart became evil in the midst of the stones of fire, mountain of the Lord, the hedge of Israel and so on.

    Veteran, you need to enter the "symbols" to appreciate the Mind of God in relation to the King and also understand why God applied His judgments to the King of Tyre. Ezek 28:18

    It would be disappointing if this colorful Divine language was lost on such an erroneous teaching as satanism.

  18. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

    Likes Received:
    Truth, for someone who deny's Satan's existence you sure are obsessed with denying him.
  19. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

    Likes Received:

    Not even close!
  20. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

    Likes Received:
    Setting the context of Ezek 28

    The King of Tyre dwelt on an island which was likened to a fortress (inaccessible by land and withstood numerous attacks on every side) He mocked at the threat of attack as his Island was long known for its defensive capabilities.

    It is profitable to read the history of Tyre in conjunction with this prophecy against its King.


    Note: 332 BC Alexander the great’s notable siege lasting 7 months against Tyre fulfilled Bible Prophecy beautifully. (but that’s another lesson)

    He became a proud man wise in his own eyes and foolish before God. Clearly from verse Ezek 28:2 the king had aspired equality with God.


    From that moment he followed the way of Adam in committing sin and was in like manner ejected from the Garden of Eden (Israel). However, he was warned that he is but Adam! (Ezek 28:2) so his fate would be that of Adam.

    The king of Tyre thought in his mind he was the personification of wisdom and beauty (like Adam). Ezek 28:4-12!

    The King believed in his own mind he was divine and glorious (Eze 28:2).

    The King believed divine wisdom was his alone Ezek 28:3

    But Adam was taught by the true Cherub at the gates of the Garden (not a fake one here) Ezek 29:14. And so in like manner the King would be ejected from the Garden, wherein he had temporary access. So the King of Tyre was taken down from his lofty position in the political heavens because of his great sin before Yahweh (Eze 26:2).

    This Lamentation is one of the great parables of life for those who dare enter His sanctuary. This whole chapter in many ways is patterned on the events in the Garden. Their sin is used figuratively speaking towards the King of Trye, He had been in Eden (Israel) but chose to sin within its borders /hedge and so does everyone who is allowed access into the divine sanctuary.

    But his sin had come up before God. And all who commit such sins cannot hide from God, especially if you are within his sanctuary! (Eze 31:8).

    So does God act upon sin? Yes, and very quickly!

    “So the voice of the prophet sounded forth in judgement against the King of Tyre.

    The breakup of the chapter is as follows:

    (1) The pride of the king of Tyre: Ezek 28:1-10.

    (2) The lamentation and elergy over the king of Tyre: Ezek 28:11-19.

    (3) The doom of Zidon: Ezek 28:20-23.

    (4) The removal of these 'briers' from Israel: Ezek 28:24-26.

    And concludes with a lamentation over Trye.