Saved By Fear?

[GodsGrace]

how about a twinc parable to try and explain this = there will only be devils in hell which was prepared for the devil and his angels from the beginning - twinc

That's not a parable, but you could believe it if you like.
No problem.
Why do you believe this?

 

[GodsGrace]

You're changing the subject. We are not talking about doing good or evil. We are talking the nature of the 'will'. So again, do you see distinction between the nature of the will of man and the nature of God's will? Or do you see them as just the same? God has a will and man has a will. And both exercise their will.

Stranger

I'm not changing the subject.
I'm just using the Christian understanding of free will and you're not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because Christ died for all and the invitation is for all. It is there for their taking.

Stranger

What??? You've been telling me that God chooses us, now you tell me the invitation is for all???

 

[GodsGrace]

If there is no non-elect, then there is no elect. You make no sense here.

Stranger

LOL neither have you made sense at times!
There is no non elect because God desires all to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4

 

[GodsGrace]

This is an interesting conversation you have here with Stranger. I have been following along.

The best picture I see in scripture is:-

If there is no such thing as non-elect...why were not all of the tribe of Levi chosen ( elect) as the Priesthood?
And why could only Levi as priests , if there is no non-elect?
What about all the other tribes? Were they pond-scum in God's eyes.
No, obviously...all have their place, all have their calling...all have their job to do.
I believe this is what we also see in Peter , James and John...Jesus did not "elect" the others to go up the Mount with Him.

The pattern is there. There are Elect, and non-elect.
But each can do 100% of what they are called to do. And hear the- "well done thou good and faithful servant"

That is how I see it.

Being called to be a part of the body is biblical.
1 Corinthians 12:12
Saying that God elects some and not others is a calvinist doctrine which is not true because it removes free will from human nature. I've given a lot of scripture that proves we have free will.

 

[Helen]

That's not a parable, but you could believe it if you like.
No problem.
Why do you believe this?

Twinc can answer for himself.
I believe ( and I may be wrong...I will wait and see) but, I believe in The Fire..God Himself.
I believe we all came from Him...all life comes from God...without Him there is no life..and I believe we will all return to Him who gave...

God being a Consuming Fire...( Heb 12 ) I believe we will all ( as with the bonds on the Hebrew young men in the furnace) be set free from all thing that are not "of God". The Cleansing Fire. As found in Isaiah 43:2-3....
"..when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour..."
God is Love, God is a consuming fire...consuming all which is not...leaving what first came from Him, His life....
No persons will be in hell with the devil an
d his angels...REV tells us that is who hell was prepared for. I don't believe that somewhere along the way, God said to Himself... "Oh I have an idea...I'll send man into the hell I have prepared for the devil and his angels. "

What is hell? We all know the answer...it means "the unseen"...
Separation from God, is hell. I do not find in the Hebrew or Greek that it means forever and ever and ever etc........ only God and all that is within Him...is forever. You have probably also done the study on - eons , ages, forever, eternal, age lasting, etc..

I used to write in my bible all the original Greek and Hebrew words for ages, eternal , hell, etc etc...but that was many moons ago. Bibles are not "forever" unfortunately...so that one fell apart. Now I am many bibles hence...

So, that's just me...but how do you see things..?
( please, not just the usual pat, stock, mainline answer )
Just from your heart.

Bless you...H

 

[mjrhealth]

1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

God has always kept a remnant, those who refused to bow to the antichrist. God knows who are His and who are not, even if we cant see it.

 

[Helen]

Saying that God elects some and not others is a calvinist doctrine which is not true because it removes free will from human nature. I've given a lot of scripture that proves we have free will.

Ha! I have just finished writing the post above.
We haven't chatted like this for a long time.

If you are both talking about some being elected for salvation and some not elected for salvation then I agree...in that I disagree with that.
He came to call ALL to Himself...not just some.

"And I, If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto Me.."

The call is to all...not some ...

 

[GodsGrace]

Ha! I have just finished writing the post above.
We haven't chatted like this for a long time.

If you are both talking about some being elected for salvation and some not elected for salvation then I agree...in that I disagree with that.
He came to call ALL to Himself...not just some.

"And I, If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto Me.."

The call is to all...not some ...

Yes BG, we were discussing election to salvation.
I'm happy you don't agree.

I really dislike talking about hell, but if you want a real answer it'll have to wait till tomorrow.
Doesn't Revelation also say that nothing impure will enter heaven.?
Interesting your comments about God being an all consuming fire,,,Corinthians speaks to this.
Tomorrow.

 

[Helen]

@GodsGrace If you don't like discussing what you believe in a thread..use the Inbox.
No rush...I have to work tomorrow anyway...

...later....H

 

[Dcopymope]

Being called to be a part of the body is biblical.
1 Corinthians 12:12
Saying that God elects some and not others is a calvinist doctrine which is not true because it removes free will from human nature. I've given a lot of scripture that proves we have free will.

The way I currently understand it is that God may predetermine for all to believe in Jesus and be saved as it is not his wish that any should perish, but not all are chosen, or justified. According to the parable of the marriage feast Jesus Christ gave, there is a difference between being called and being chosen. God has to choose you before you can choose him. God chooses you which enables you to choose him, which is where our free will becomes relevant. It goes both ways, once God draws your heart to him, its up to you if you choose or reject him.

(John 6:26-44) "Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. {27} Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. {28} Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? {29} Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. {30} They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? {31} Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. {32} Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. {33} For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. {34} Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. {35} And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. {36} But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. {37} All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. {38} For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. {39} And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. {40} And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. {41} The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. {42} And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? {43} Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. {44} No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

(Romans 8:28-30) "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. {29} For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. {30} Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

 

[twinc]

That's not a parable, but you could believe it if you like.
No problem.
Why do you believe this?

I believe it because it is in the bible but missed by most - it is at Matt 25:41 and goes like this "there will be a division into two lots - the one to the right will be for the children of God saved by the saviour of the world and the one to the left will be for the goats and tares and the children of the devil - He will say only to those on His left "depart into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels imho - there will only be devils in hell, there will be no Christians in hell imho - twinc

 

[Triumph1300]

Fact:

There are no unbelievers in hell.
Everybody entering hell realizes how wrong they were.
So.....hell turns unbelievers into believers.
But by that time it's to late.
I believe there's a lot of cursing in hell and accusations from children against their parents.

 

[Dcopymope]

Fact:

There are no unbelievers in hell.
Everybody entering hell realizes how wrong they were.
So.....hell turns unbelievers into believers.
But by that time it's to late.
I believe there's a lot of cursing in hell and accusations from children against their parents.

Oh, I'm not so certain that there won't be unbelievers in hell.

(Revelation 21:8) "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

What brand of unbelievers may John be referring to here? Based on what Jesus once said, you might be right, in part at least.

(Matthew 10:5-15) "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: {6} But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. {7} And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. {8} Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. {9} Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, {10} Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. {11} And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. {12} And when ye come into an house, salute it. {13} And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. {14} And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. {15} Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

So it will be more tolerable for the sinners of Sodom than it will be for those who rejected Jesus Christ, as they will have no excuse. I am 100% certain that this is the particular brand of "unbeliever" John is referring to.

 

[Stranger]

What??? You've been telling me that God chooses us, now you tell me the invitation is for all???

Yes. Is that so hard to understand? I have repeated it many times already. I have showed you in Scripture, (2 Thess. 2:13). The invitation extends to all who are in Adam. Christ died for all. To any who come, will be saved. Is that too difficult?

But, left alone, none will come. Not you or anyone else. Only if God opens your eyes and moves upon your Spirit will you come. Only if you are chosen by God will He move this way. (Acts 13:48) "And when the Gentiles heard...as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

So, you see. I have not told you anything different. You are creating the differences.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

LOL neither have you made sense at times!
There is no non elect because God desires all to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4

The 'all' in (1 Tim. 2:4) speaks to all classes of men. It is based on (2:1-3). Salvation is offered to all men, Kings included. That all are included in the invitation, does not negate the truth of there being an elect of God. And that only the elect will come, because they are elect.

If there is no non-elect, then there is no elect. If there is no elect, then none will be saved. That there is an elect, you cannot deny. (Rom. 9:11)

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I'm not changing the subject.
I'm just using the Christian understanding of free will and you're not.

Yes, you are. We are not talking about whether God does good or evil. We are talking about the nature of the 'will'. You constantly use the term 'free will' but have no definition of 'will'. You use the term 'free will' just as you would 'will'. I have explained how there is difference between 'free will' and 'will'. But you refuse any difference. To you if one has a will, if he exercises his will, his will is free.

Only God's will is 'free'. Why? Nothing moves upon His will to cause Him to do one way or another. He does according to His will. How about you? Is that a picture of your 'will' also. Do you have any physical forces or spiritual forces pressing on you to cause you to decide things?

Is your will and God's will the same? Please don't tell me you accept what Christianity has defined. You accept what you want to accept.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. Is that so hard to understand? I have repeated it many times already. I have showed you in Scripture, (2 Thess. 2:13). The invitation extends to all who are in Adam. Christ died for all. To any who come, will be saved. Is that too difficult?

But, left alone, none will come. Not you or anyone else. Only if God opens your eyes and moves upon your Spirit will you come. Only if you are chosen by God will He move this way. (Acts 13:48) "And when the Gentiles heard...as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

So, you see. I have not told you anything different. You are creating the differences.

Stranger

Yes. It IS too difficult. You contradict yourself.

In paragraph one you say we have free will.
In paragraph two you say we do NOT have free will.

In paragraph one you say we get to choose God.
In paragraph two you say God must FIRST draw us to Him.
God draw ALL MEN to Him.
Romans 1:19-20
And, as @"ByGrace" posted,
John 12:32

Acts 13:48
There is no doubt that God calls everyone.
There is no doubt that God desires all to be saved.
There is no doubt that Jesus died for the whole world and for those who would believe in Him. You cannot take a few verses that seem to be on your "side".
In Acts all those who would honor God were presdestined to honor God sthrough Jesus, just like the Jews (Gentiles were being addressed here). It takes two to be saved, God's calling (to ALL men) and man's choice.

 

[GodsGrace]

The 'all' in (1 Tim. 2:4) speaks to all classes of men. It is based on (2:1-3). Salvation is offered to all men, Kings included. That all are included in the invitation, does not negate the truth of there being an elect of God. And that only the elect will come, because they are elect.

If there is no non-elect, then there is no elect. If there is no elect, then none will be saved. That there is an elect, you cannot deny. (Rom. 9:11)

Stranger

No Stranger. This is the problem with Calvinistic beliefs.
ALL means ALL. It does NOT mean "all" something else.
It means ALL MEN on earth.

I meant, of course, that there is no such thing as elect, so there is no such thing as no elect. Another way to say this is that all are elected by God, but they must respond YES, to His calling.

Many are called, but few are chosen. Why? Because God's choosing has to do with the response to the calling. God chooses those that by their own free will choose to love Him and follow Him.

Romans 9:11
God's purpose was to save all nations through Abraham and Jacob. He foreknew that Esau would not pick to love and serve God. We've been through this and are repeating. Check Malachai 3:7. God says "return to me and I will return to you".
Romans 9 to 11 is speaking to the Jews and showing how the history of the Jews is to save the Gentiles. These chapters are NOT about individual salvation on a person per person basis.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, you are. We are not talking about whether God does good or evil. We are talking about the nature of the 'will'. You constantly use the term 'free will' but have no definition of 'will'. You use the term 'free will' just as you would 'will'. I have explained how there is difference between 'free will' and 'will'. But you refuse any difference. To you if one has a will, if he exercises his will, his will is free.

Only God's will is 'free'. Why? Nothing moves upon His will to cause Him to do one way or another. He does according to His will. How about you? Is that a picture of your 'will' also. Do you have any physical forces or spiritual forces pressing on you to cause you to decide things?

Is your will and God's will the same? Please don't tell me you accept what Christianity has defined. You accept what you want to accept.

Stranger

2. Homiletical outline: Joshua 24:14-28

This is designed to summarise what the text is saying and grab the attention of the congregation or readers with relevant information that comes directly out of the text. This is the outline for a sermon that I will preach (not prepared yet) on this text. It may take 2 sermons of 30 minutes each to cover this material.

a. God does not deceive you: A command means you can do it (v. 14)

• Fear the Lord
• Serve him
• Put away the other gods.

source: Truth Challenge » Free will

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If determinism is true we are all essentially uncontrolled, noise-making puppets with our strings pulled mindlessly by the physical universe. Because we always remain part of the universe we can never cut our strings and step outside the universe in order to objectively evaluate anything, including our own words. We effectively communicate nothing and know nothing.

Clearly then, Harris's thesis of determinism being true is self-defeating. If one asserts that there are valid, comprehensible reasons for believing that determinism is true, as Harris does, then in doing so he shows that determinism must necessarily be false.

Everything in our experience of life shouts at us that human beings do have free will. Even Harris, despite his denial of free will, repeatedly contradicts himself in the book, even within the one sentence: "Dispensing with the illusion of free will allows us to focus on the things that matter", p. 53. No Sam, if we have no free will, no control over our minds, we cannot choose to dispense with, or focus on, anything. "Where people can change, we can demand that they do so", p. 62. But don't you remember Sam, you said on p. 29 that "the future is set"?

Our whole lives are based on the premise that humans are genuine free agents yet most philosophers strongly deny that such agency exists. Nevertheless, we hold each other largely accountable for our actions (philosophy professors still mark their students' papers!). Indeed, critics of this article may deride me for rejecting determinism but then their derision can only truly make sense if determinism is false.

source: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=17152&page=2