Saved by obeying the commandments?

[1stCenturyLady]

Paul who said "I die daily"

No, I can't relate to what Paul went through. It seems you don't know the meaning of what he said. Read it in context like I have. He's talking about being persecuted and his physical life was in jeopardy, but he kept on preaching in spite of the risk. That is him dying daily. Paul was already free from sin. Don't take verses out of context.

Cassandra, a doctrine of demons is a doctrine to make you apathetic towards sin. Jesus came to take away our sin, not take away the condemnation of sin in the guise of God's mercy. If you are in one of those false denominations that preaches you will always sin - RUN!!!

If "past, present and future" sins is one of their catch phrases, they are denying the words of Jesus.

 

[friend of]

It is the right thing to confess sins to one another and to God, but that doesn't change a persons status. Either a person is saved or they're not

What's the point for a sinner who is outside the blood of Christ to confess sins to anyone? It's pointless, their destination is clearly hell. Clearly Christians are still capable of falling short from time to time since we are not omniscient.

In 1977 when I was born again of the Spirit I literally felt a weight lift off of me.

I'm happy for you. And I'm sure the rest of the forum is happy that you were so radically saved and Christ gives you the warm sunshine of His embrace, constantly. But not everyone experiences the Christian walk the exact same way as you do. You seem to forget that.

 

[ButterflyJones]

The thing is, we're told to obey the commandments for that is the way of righteous living

Yet, we're told we cannot possibly obey them perfectly in thought, or deed.

If as a Christian we identify still as a sinner we make the Gospel out to be false. If we insist we do that because we still sin, we admit per what the scriptures tell us, we don't know Jesus.

 

[Jim B]

Legalism is when you have laws that are AGAINST your NATURE. Since Adam sinned and turned dominion over to Satan mankind inherited SIN in our nature making us sinners. It got so bad that God gave the Ten Commandments to guard them, but they had to keep them against their nature. That is why the Ten Commandments could not make them righteous, because nothing took away the sin nature making them inherently unrighteous.

Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

The Seed is Jesus.

The reason why Jesus came as I said before was to take the SIN OUT OF OUR NATURE. Understand? In 1977 when I was born again of the Spirit I literally felt a weight lift off of me. Its real. I have a clean nature so I don't willfully sin. I don't NEED the Ten Commandments. That is why we are not UNDER the Law. We don't need the law to be righteous. Jesus took the unrighteousness out of our nature. Understand? Now with a clean nature that doesn't willfully sin, all that is left are sins not unto death - immature fruit.

Dev, Please go to a church that teaches on the Holy Spirit and get yourself born again. You will no longer be a sinner of lawlessness, the kind of sin that leads to death. Galatians 5:19-21. Listed in that verse are sins unto death. Read them and see if you may already have the Holy Spirit or not. If you do, then you can stop calling yourself a sinner and call yourself what God calls us in 1 John 3:1-3. "children of God." Read these.

1977 must have been a special year, as it was the year that I was healed and saved by Jesus. I went in an instant from being an atheist to a Christian and was healed of a severe asthma attack.

You wrote, " I have a clean nature so I don't willfully sin. I don't NEED the Ten Commandments. That is why we are not UNDER the Law. We don't need the law to be righteous. Jesus took the unrighteousness out of our nature. Understand?" Clearly!

 

[Jim B]

The Holy Spirit is given to those who repent. Are you saying you are not guilty of any of those things(Galatians 5:19-21)? That your "old man" is truly dead, and that you cannot relate to Paul who said "I die daily" Those things in Galatians can be done by just thoughts, not overt actions.

Interesting that you omit Galatians 5, 16-18: "Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law."

The you put in verses 19-21, but...

More significantly, you omit Galatians 5, 22-26: "By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. And those who belong to Christ have crucified [past tense!]the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, competing against one another, envying one another."

 

[Jim B]

What's the point for a sinner who is outside the blood of Christ to confess sins to anyone? It's pointless, their destination is clearly hell. Clearly Christians are still capable of falling short from time to time since we are not omniscient.

I'm happy for you. And I'm sure the rest of the forum is happy that you were so radically saved and Christ gives you the warm sunshine of His embrace, constantly. But not everyone experiences the Christian walk the exact same way as you do. You seem to forget that.

Have you ever heard the phrase "I'm sorry"? There is a clear point to confessing sins to everyone! It is not pointless, it's human decency!

BTW, omniscient means all-knowing. That has nothing to do with sin.

 

[friend of]

Have you ever heard the phrase "I'm sorry"? There is a clear point to confessing sins to everyone! It is not pointless, it's human decency!

There are numerous passages in the bible addressed to believers to repent for sins committed. These passages are directed at believers, which means even believers are capable of sin. They cannot be talking to Reprobate who have no connection with God at all.

 

[friend of]

BTW, omniscient means all-knowing. That has nothing to do with sin

I'm saying you would need to be omniscient to avoid sin completely.

 

[Cassandra]

Interesting that you omit Galatians 5, 16-18: "Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law."

The you put in verses 19-21, but...

More significantly, you omit Galatians 5, 22-26: "By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. And those who belong to Christ have crucified [past tense!]the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, competing against one another, envying one another."

I was responding to first century lady's bringing up of those particular verses. That is all she put in her post, and since I was responding to that specifically, it is not interesting, or more significant why I left the others out.. It makes sense to me. If it doesn't to you. lo siento entonces.
There are tons of verses that can be quoted. No one is debating that.
If you believe you don't sin, good for you. I am thankful that if I sin, I have an advocate with God the Father. Nice to know that you probably don't need to be advocated for, or am I misunderstanding you? I do not believe in once saved, always saved.

Jesus saves us from sin. Justification. Then the old man is replaced by the new, and the holy Spirit prompts us in the right way and we can fall, but we can repent and continue our walk, That is sanctification.

You can say you don't have to abide by the law, but that is exactly what the Holy Spirit prompts you to do. Worship God first, no idolatry, no blasphemy, no adultery, no stealing , honor your parents, no coveting, no murder,no false witness. That's 9 of the 10.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

What's the point for a sinner who is outside the blood of Christ to confess sins to anyone? It's pointless, their destination is clearly hell. Clearly Christians are still capable of falling short from time to time since we are not omniscient.

I'm happy for you. And I'm sure the rest of the forum is happy that you were so radically saved and Christ gives you the warm sunshine of His embrace, constantly. But not everyone experiences the Christian walk the exact same way as you do. You seem to forget that.

What was the sobering thought for me was the realization that I had already gone to church for 30 years! But not until 1977 was I born again. That means that most people in today's church may not be saved.

Recently one forum member in the Calvinist group said that we are not saved by works of righteousness, so there is no need to repent or be obedient. See what I mean? I'm afraid for the Church and how many are truly ready as the Spotless Bride of Christ.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The thing is, we're told to obey the commandments for that is the way of righteous living

Yet, we're told we cannot possibly obey them perfectly in thought, or deed.

If as a Christian we identify still as a sinner we make the Gospel out to be false. If we insist we do that because we still sin, we admit per what the scriptures tell us, we don't know Jesus.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

There are commandments of the Father, the Old Covenant, the Ten Commandments
And there are commandments of Jesus. They are not the same, 1 John 3:23-24
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The Holy Spirit is given to those who repent. Are you saying you are not guilty of any of those things(Galatians 5:19-21)? That your "old man" is truly dead, and that you cannot relate to Paul who said "I die daily" Those things in Galatians can be done by just thoughts, not overt actions.

What I can relate to is the 180 degree about face in my desires to sin instantly. It is dead, I know it, and I know who I am in Christ. He also gave me the gift of hearing His voice that night. He also answers all my prayers. For the 30 years before that not one prayer was answered. But I had been a fake Christian for the first 30 years. But God was drawing me during those years to Christ, until I finally truly repented, was born again and filled with the Spirit. I also received most of the gifts of the Spirit.

 

[dev553344]

The Holy Spirit is given to those who repent. Are you saying you are not guilty of any of those things(Galatians 5:19-21)? That your "old man" is truly dead, and that you cannot relate to Paul who said "I die daily" Those things in Galatians can be done by just thoughts, not overt actions.

Yes Paul is a confessing sinner as reported in scriptures. He knew the truth and was not afraid to call himself as such.

Romans 3:7 7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?

 

[dev553344]

I don't want to get to technical but those who are saved are not sinners. They are part of the body of Christ, He is the head, we are His body.

It is the right thing to confess sins to one another and to God, but that doesn't change a persons status. Either a person is saved or they're not.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

 

[dev553344]

Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Let's not underestimate the importance of the parable of the Tax Collector and Pharisee. If you say you are without sin you are a liar (1 John 1:8-10). If you confess that you are imperfect and a sinner you may become justified by Christ's atonement.

 

[dev553344]

I do have a question for the people that say they are without sin, what denomination teaches that? I'm not familiar with that denomination yet so it's an honest question.

 

[Cassandra]

Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Let's not underestimate the importance of the parable of the Tax Collector and Pharisee. If you say you are without sin you are a liar (1 John 1:8-10). If you confess that you are imperfect and a sinner you may become justified by Christ's atonement.

And in 1 John 1:8-10, John uses "we" not "ye". He is including himself

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[dev553344]

And in 1 John 1:8-10, John uses "we" not "ye". He is including himself

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

God is righteous and he helps us to do good things and Godly things. He is great, but my weak mind is not like his nor my spirit or body. Christ's body is Holy, and God's mind is all knowing and intelligent. He is worthy of our worship and praise.

I like following the spirit and doing good works, I often get blessed with Love and Peace from the spirit when I do these things, it is a pleasant experience.

And obeying the commandments can yield more Holy Spirit communion which is also nice. But I stumble a lot and don't always follow where the spirit leads, but I'm learning.

Cheers!

 

[Cassandra]

And as an aside, what do the once saved, always saved folk do with this?

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

This verse speaks about folk who have already had the Holy Ghost. So if OSAS is true, then these guys are OK--doesn't matter what you do after partaking of the Holy Ghost. But---If they crucify Christ, they would have to repent of that, wouldn't they? Maybe that starts the OSAS thing all over, which could mean it is not true in the first place.
Hmmm...

 

[dev553344]

Now as far as the belief that you will be saved by obeying the commandments, there does appear to be some scriptural support for that idea. The rich man was promised by Jesus that if he obeyed perfectly he would save him and offer the atonement.

I've noticed some churches promoting this idea. And I think obeying the commandments perfectly is probably beyond my capabilities with my current attributes. If I am to be saved it will be because God loves me and wants me to be part of his heavenly family.