Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

Twisting the night away. Twisting, twisting...

Well saying that does not refute my post.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

You have the chance to show us how "through" means by reason of or because of or on account of. Else, what you say there points back to you.

Tong
R0516

 

[Tong2020]

Faith Chooses.
God saves.

A person is chosen, when the "believe".

"all that call on the name of the Lord are CHOSEN" )

Says who?

Tong
R0517

 

[Renniks]

Your opinions yes, not explanation.

As I said, regarding the phrase "many are called, few are chosen", such phrase must be taken in the context of the parables where Jesus said such.

Matthew 20:1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 and said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.’

8 “So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’ 9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. 11 And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ 13 But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”

Go ahead and explain to us what Jesus meant to say when He said in verse 16 "For many are called, but few chosen."

As I also said, in general, a simple refutation of what you say in your post is in the understanding that there are two adams, that is, Adam and Jesus Christ, and that there are two births. And as all who are in Adam died, all who are in Jesus Christ shall be made alive.

Tong
R0515

In the context of the parable, his explanation is that the one who has been his follower longer doesn't merit special treatment or reward. He's explaining grace. Obviously the chosen are those who accept this grace instead of demanding that their works make them special.

 

[JunChosen]

Faith is not a work. Good grief, you have been thoroughly indoctrinated by the hyper Calvinists.

You didn't even know if faith is a work Yes?

Why is it that when someone comes along bringing the true Gospel he is shunned away?

To be honest, I'm not familiar with the work Calvin did. If he and I see the same Gospel that means he too is a child of God and not like some hypocrite I know.








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[Renniks]

You have the chance to show us how "through" means by reason of or because of or on account of. Else, what you say there points back to you.

It says right there that we are saved through belief. I don't know how you can misunderstand that.

 

[Renniks]

You didn't even know if faith is a work Yes?

Why is it that when someone comes along bringing the true Gospel he is shunned away?

To be honest, I'm not familiar with the work Calvin did. If he and I see the same Gospel that means he too is a child of God and not like some hypocrite I know.








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Lol, now I'm a hypocrite? What did I say to merit such an insult? I know that faith is not a work.

[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast

"It" (salvation)is a gift we receive when we exercise faith. Works is obviously not faith or this verse would be nonsense.

 

[JunChosen]

Read Galatians. Faith is the opposite of works.

Chapter and verse please. I'm not going to read all 6 chapters

 

[JunChosen]

]

Then you are not consistent with your theology.[/QUOTE

Please explain!

 

[JunChosen]

[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast[/QUOTE

Read verse 9 very,very carefully and ask yourself why did God write verse 9 in conjunction with verse 8? What was His purpose? If you have the Holy Spirit within you, you should have no problems.

"It" (salvation)is a gift we receive when we exercise faith. Works is obviously not faith or this verse would be nonsense.

Right, that is if faith is not a work, but faith IS a work. Do yourself a favor and be like the Bereans who searched out the Scriptures if this be so.

 

[Renniks]

Perhaps you could explain what you mean because it makes no sense to me.
Read Galatians, yes the whole thing. It's not that long. And it explains in detail that faith and works are very different.

 

[Tong2020]

It says right there that we are saved through belief. I don't know how you can misunderstand that.

And you just lost your chance to show us how "through" means by reason of or because of or on account of.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

So here's what it says.

That we always thank God for the brothers and sisters in Christ, who are loved by the Lord.

Why are we bound to give thanks to God always for them?

It is because God has chosen them from the beginning to save them from the punishment of sin. The gratitude towards God is not because they chose to be saved, but that God had chosen them for salvation, and that, even from the beginning.

He chose them for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit (that is, making them holy by the Holy Spirit) and belief in the truth (that is, give them faith to believe the truth).

Tong
R0518

 

[Renniks]

And you just lost your chance to show us how "through" means by reason of or because of or on account of.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

So here's what it says.

That we always thank God for the brothers and sisters in Christ, who are loved by the Lord.

Why are we bound to give thanks to God always for them?

It is because God has chosen them from the beginning to save them from the punishment of sin. The gratitude towards God is not because they chose to be saved, but that God had chosen them for salvation, and that, even from the beginning.

He chose them for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit (that is, making them holy by the Holy Spirit) and belief in the truth (that is, give them faith to believe the truth).

Tong
R0518

You don't understand corporate election. I believe I've tried to explain it to you before, but you can't seem to grasp that being chosen in Christ means that we are not individually chosen for salvation, but those who believe are the chosen.

 

[JunChosen]

Look, you didn't know that faith is a work until I mentioned it. It is not a shame to not be able to understand any scripture for we all have feet of clay. No one has a monopoly on the word of God, that is perfect knowledge.

Why not admit you don't know that faith is a work and is contrary to Ephesians 2:9 and move on?

 

[Tong2020]

You don't understand corporate election. I believe I've tried to explain it to you before, but you can't seem to grasp that being chosen in Christ means that we are not individually chosen for salvation, but those who believe are the chosen.

No sir, the matter is not about corporate or individual election, but that the word "through" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not mean by reason of or because of or on account of, which you had been evading by putting up other issues. So, if you will, then please go ahead and show us how "through" means by reason of or because of or on account of, which you wanted for it to mean.

Tong
R0519

 

[kcnalp]

Romans 9:11
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

 

[Renniks]

Look, you didn't know that faith is a work until I mentioned it. It is not a shame to not be able to understand any scripture for we all have feet of clay. No one has a monopoly on the word of God, that is perfect knowledge.

Why not admit you don't know that faith is a work and is contrary to Ephesians 2:9 and move on?

Because you are talking nonsense. Faith is not a work and you have certainly not shown otherwise.

 

[Renniks]

No sir, the matter is not about corporate or individual election, but that the word "through" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not mean by reason of or because of or on account of, which you had been evading by putting up other issues. So, if you will, then please go ahead and show us how "through" means by reason of or because of or on account of, which you wanted for it to mean.

Tong
R0519

I have to prove what is obvious? If I am hired for a job through the means of having a good application, then what got me the job?

 

[Renniks]

Romans 9:11
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

This isn't even about salvation. It's about God choosing Esau and Jacob for different jobs.

 

[Renniks]

]

You really don't understand your own theology? If we are irresistibly chosen for salvation, and good works, etc, then everything we do is actually God's doing. And you already claimed that God creates evil, so that includes all evil being God's doing. Perhaps you honestly didn't know that you are embracing a deterministic view of everything that happens?

 

[Tong2020]

I have to prove what is obvious? If I am hired for a job through the means of having a good application, then what got me the job?

Really difficult to show how "through" means by reason of or because of or on account of. That's the obvious.

Tong
R0520