If a person does not go toward that Light, he cannot find anything worthwhile and remains then in death. Of course you disagree, but there it is! God is the One who increases!
Saved, which means what?
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I always have further answers to each question that matters to me for I walk with Him and talk with Him each day as I have doing for a great many years. But... a person is able to find support in the written scripture for almost any set of doctrines or beliefs. Only God can change a heart that is changeable from a wrong place to a right place. I am not God. Have a blessed day!
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
I have a vision from God with the details He has provided through study and by His Spirit. There is whole picture, but how complete is what each of us has? Can we have differences like this and still please God? If our hearts are right I do believe so. Praise His blessed holy name!
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
@Rocky Wiley
The Life part is according to his words here requiring belief in Him:
"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26
The "he that believeth" is the qualification for never dying. But what is included in that "believeth" thing if not this?
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:17-18
Tongues and serpents and deadly drink and healers of the sick! Must not all believers do these things?
I also know the stories and histories and complaints and doubts about the verses of this chapter from 9 through 20, but either we accept them as part of what God inspired men to write or we do not. I do! Even a marginal note could have been put there because God wanted it there! What witness to the events do we have that is more reliable than the Holy Spirit? How do we know that any part of the all of the written gospel accounts are reliable other than by the Holy Spirit? Do we only believe the best scholars? And if some of the best scholars are atheists...?
Some one already mentioned that His sheep hear His voice. I'll agree with that but are there any lying spirits still in men today? Whose testimony can I always trust? Who is a sheep and who is a goat? God certainly knows.
When it comes down to it I can only always be sure of Him. In some men I may have some confidence, but how many of us [yes, me included] are still liars ... even if without knowing it? It is written, "every man is a liar"! Are there exceptions?
And again on being saved...
"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Matt 10:22
When is the end for me or you or the other guy, if not at the end of our course here [when we are ready for the dirt to be shoveled over our faces]?
The Life part is according to his words here requiring belief in Him:
"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26
The "he that believeth" is the qualification for never dying. But what is included in that "believeth" thing if not this?
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:17-18
Tongues and serpents and deadly drink and healers of the sick! Must not all believers do these things?
I also know the stories and histories and complaints and doubts about the verses of this chapter from 9 through 20, but either we accept them as part of what God inspired men to write or we do not. I do! Even a marginal note could have been put there because God wanted it there! What witness to the events do we have that is more reliable than the Holy Spirit? How do we know that any part of the all of the written gospel accounts are reliable other than by the Holy Spirit? Do we only believe the best scholars? And if some of the best scholars are atheists...?
Some one already mentioned that His sheep hear His voice. I'll agree with that but are there any lying spirits still in men today? Whose testimony can I always trust? Who is a sheep and who is a goat? God certainly knows.
When it comes down to it I can only always be sure of Him. In some men I may have some confidence, but how many of us [yes, me included] are still liars ... even if without knowing it? It is written, "every man is a liar"! Are there exceptions?
And again on being saved...
"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Matt 10:22
When is the end for me or you or the other guy, if not at the end of our course here [when we are ready for the dirt to be shoveled over our faces]?
I have already shared some of it. The vision I speak of is not like a dream or an appearance of some heavenly entity but rather in accord with what Solomon wrote 3,000 years ago:
"Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he." Prov 29:18
The vision is of the whole plan of God as expressed in the written scriptures, but only fully understood or seen as we approach the "then" Paul mentions here:
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12
What we see of the whole plan is blurry or incomplete or as "through a glass darkly" until "then"!
Different people in different places along the highway of holiness should be seeing what they each need to see according to the part that they are, or are to be, in the Body of Christ. When a person states too many thing too absolutely he may well be hindering the work of God in his own self. People have always been limiting God. When we are not limiting and we know Him, He is working in us to bring us up to that "then"!
How many touches did the blind man need in order to see men clearly?
"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25
How many touches from the Lord will each of us need in order to see the whole vision of God for men?
Marymog
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Hi Stumpmaster,
Scripture never contradicts itself. Notice that the passage speaks of salvation in the past tense? (”you have been saved.”) In Greek this is the perfect tense, which denotes a past, completed action. We know from the Bible that salvation also has present and future aspects, so the kind of salvation Paul is discussing in Ephesians 2:8–9 is initial salvation. It is the salvation we received when we first came to God and were justified, not the kind of salvation we are now receiving (1 Pet. 1:8–9, Phil. 2:12) or the kind we one day will receive (Rom. 13:11, 1 Cor. 3:15, 5:5).
Bible Study Mary
I think the Jesus brought a life to us that was unknown by Adam and Eve or any other, as this new life is in His resurrection, and they did not live in His resurrection, which had not happened yet. He had not even incarnated nor died.
Much love!
Why would you believe that? God has never been a respecter of persons. Would He give us the opportunity for more than He gave Adam and Eve? If they had eaten only of the Tree of Life to which they did have access they would have had, I believe, as much as we may have.
Jesus was sent to give to each of us the opportunity to do it better than did Adam and Eve... but as the choice was theirs, the choice now is ours.
First we had to be brought to the same starting line with effectively the same opportunity that Adam and Eve had. Through Jesus each of us can get there. Once there we then may get to a higher place than they ever attained to...by making a better decision, by taking the right road, the road of humility and obedience. When a person is born again he is brought to where Adam and Eve were before disobedience. Then it is up to us: Life or death? God or mammon? Light or darkness? Good or evil?
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Does the Bible actually teach this or is this speculation. Where in the Bible does it say that a man has the authority within himself to say no? I don't remember that anywhere.
What does this mean, that we've been justified away from sin?
What does it mean that "it is no longer I that sin, but the sin that lives in me?" Can you show me how this applied to Adam?
How Adam was "justified away from sin?"
Much love!
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15
"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Matt 6:24
When we choose anything before or instead of God, we are telling Him, no!
The children of Israel did this in the OT:
"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41
They limited God because He had by His Word given them dominion over themselves. God will not break His own Word. He can and will help us, but we must ask of Him and we must open the door to our own hearts to Him.
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20
God always gave people the choice, to obey Him or not. The first case of men testing it was with Adam and Eve. They made the wrong choice. Most people have done that as well, choosing what tickles their own ears instead of what God would like to see. But gave men the dominion back in Genesis. We must give the dominion to God if ever we are going to move closer to Him. Alone, we cannot do it. The choice is always ours!
I've made a very dedicated search for some years, and I can't find it anywhere.
What I find is that God created us to share Himself with, and when we went renegade, God gave Himself to be a means by which we could be reconciled to Him, and now, having been reconciled and having received that reconciliation, God has what He intended . . . His family.
And this is accomplished by Him imbueing us with His goodness, not sifting through us to find at least a couple of us who will just be righteous enough/faithful enough/holy enough/good enough to remain His child.
I don't see anywhere that man has any authority at all over his life or death, except that we may physically murder. Though I don't think we can do that unless we are allowed by God.
Much love!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
These topics marks have become a broken record. Such basic things repeated again and again and again indicate lack of growth and milk is only good for a certain time. We must go on beyond the fundamentals. If we don't an immature understanding prevails and one is stunted.
We do need to master our ABC's though.
Although you do remind me, there is a much deeper issue. Point taken.
Much love!
Adam and Eve were clean and set apart [sanctified or holy] by God. When they disobeyed God they were no longer clean. They were unclean beasts with no Life in them [no Life like God was Life. They were no longer in God's image.]. They were unclean, filthy beasts. Reading the whole Bible and talking to God can give us a greater picture than perhaps finally the full picture, a vision of God whole plan.
All of the answers needed are there, but not all Bible students can see them, because they have eye trouble...severe blindness. Real vision and overall perception comes to us from the Holy Spirit. The born again person is a baby who sees light, but does not know what he is seeing... at the beginning: "Through a glass, darkly"
When we read about Adam and Eve we read with our carnal minds what seems to be just the opposite thing. All of sudden they are able to see that they are naked and they are ashamed. This is Not God's vision for them/us. They think they can see, but what they see is the temporal fiction of the material world of men with all of its carnal attractions and deceptions. They were taken out of the Garden of Reality where they had really been able to see.
Men generally, unbelievers, think that they have vision and other senses enabling them to see, hear, smell, taste and feel... but they are mistaken. What are they now able to perceive?
"Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them." Psalm 115:2-8
Babies in the Lord appear in their beginnings to be little heathens until they grow and are taught and learn to be something really better. God does not condemn them for He knows what they are and why. But, if they choose not to grow and be taught and learn so as to mature with a really expanding vision of Reality [God's Reality which is the only Reality], they not make it to end their course here. They will simply die without God.
The "sin that lives in me" is the old man, the beast nature, which pushes a man to go against God. The "I that no longer sins" is the new man, within us. But... the old man, the beastly natured man, needs to decrease and die even as the new man increases and grows:
"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30
The old man has no chance against the new man led by the Holy Spirit. But Paul admonished us to Not quench the Spirit. When we forge ahead on our own quenching the Holy Spirit in us, we are saying, no, to God.. and we will lose that battle and will sin. How many battles will God allow us to quench the Spirit before we run out of time? God knows! What we are at the end is ultimately what makes the difference, and we do not know how much time we have!
It's a matter of where we place our confidence, I think.
Please don't construe anything I write here to say that I don't believe in obedience to God. Of course I do! That is life!
Will God allow us to continue in rebellion to Him? I place my confidence in His promise.
Hebrews 12
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Can we understand the Scriptures without your particular key to understanding everything in parables?
What did you say?
Is this what you meant when you wrote,
So that someone is just seeing the temporal fiction of the material world of men with all of its carnal attractions and deceptions.
And who would that be?
Here's what I see.
I see these things plainly stated in this passage above. God disciplines His children. His disciplining is for our profit. That profit is the peaceable fruit of righteousness.
These are plainly stated affirmative passages, that I see absolutely no reason to disbelieve what they say.
We can see all sorts of parables and parallels and paint detailed tapestries of spiritual meanings, and I've see a very wide variety of that over the years, however, I'd raise some serious questions when those start running contrary to such plain teaching.
If I have to rely on my ability to attain to God's requirement, then no, I would not count myself "saved", in any eternal sense, I'd have to consider myself "at risk" until I was safely in my grave, and even then, I could never know, who is fully self-aware? Either we end up there are we don't, and it's a moot point.
This is something I find so incongruous. Those who so passionately teach this doctrine, that our salvation remains uncertain, they themselves express such certainty! Do they not believe their own teaching? But then for the most part I see this as "tying up heavy burdens for others".
But when I read in Scripture that God did something more in Christ, and when I read that what we receive we receive in Christ, and when I read that He has promised to bring us all the way through to salvation, and when I read that He means for me to know these things are true, I don't place my confidence in myself, I place it in Christ.
Much love!
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We can understand in any way that God opens them up to us. I don't presume that I am right and everyone else is wrong... but like most everyone else on this forum, I strive to follow what I believe.
When a person's heart is sincere without regard to specific doctrines or beliefs, God understands and sees perfectly. If something is so wrong it needs to be changed, God will see that also in the sincere person and change it. It comes back to that AT [Absolute Truth] problem. I believe that there are ATs, but when someone, including me, insists that they have The ATs and won't even seriously listen to anything else that is a problem, as I see it, because it could be God that they are blocking with their immutable ATs.
Right this is the best way I can explain what I understand. The main thing for any believer is to follower the Lord always as best he can staying in close touch with Him everyday... All of my details are for me and for anyone else's consideration. I don't insist. Talk to God!
I believe that there is a full clear vision. I do not claim that I have it so precisely as that. Some things seen in my heart I cannot express...
The problem I see is speaking of the "plain" teaching thing as if that [the plain teaching] were God talking rather someone taking hold of what some consensus has decided is the meaning of it or the only meaning of it. The majority does not rule in God's kingdom and to me that is what that sounds like... taking the side of the majority or of the best minds of certain essentials as prescribed most denominations.
Passionately teach this doctrine? I believe it, but I also am listening for any certain sound from God so I would hardly call it passionate teaching. Yes, I am where I am at the moment, but I strive to keep my heart and mind always open as I read the Bible and pray and talk to people... including people on this forum. Each day for me it is to be back to the "lowest room". I have been doing that for years. That is one thing that God did show me long ago.
That would be a mistake!
There are certain things which I absolutely believe. And I present myself to God for His oversight. I trust Him to do it. He is my faithful Creator.
And one of those things I believe is that God has given us a live we have abundantly live, and not in fear or doubt or dread, but in love and rejoicing and communion.
Why do we not all enjoy these? What stands in our way, if not fear and doubt and dread?
Much love!
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