Saying you are without sin verses in 1 John

[savedbygrace1]

I don't understand the Holy Spirit? In your opinion only, which is worthless. In my opinion, He is the only one who can open your eyes to spiritual truth/discernment, which is clearly lacking.

The Holy Spirit can and does use whatever means He desires to guide us into all truth. Head theology is a stupid statement! Why do you think that God gave us rational minds, language, and the ability to understand complex ideas? We are not unreasoning animals.

Since you're clearly not aware, the Bible is written in human language, which is meant to be understood by the mind. What do you think language is anyway? It is the communication in words from one person to another.

Of course, errors can be made in understanding, as your writing clearly demonstrates. If you have read the New Testament over 100 times, how come your understanding of it is so deficient? Use your mind and maybe, just maybe, you'll actually learn something.

P.S. Why do you write anything, on this forum or anywhere else?

You may believe my understanding is lacking, but didn't I read on another thread you believed the new covenant was given to the Jews in the OT, and you asked someone who quoted it if they were a jew?

 

[Episkopos]

Please answer my question-honestly
How many people do you know who perfectly follow the letter of all Christ's commands in the Gospels

Only those who abide in Christ. It is the "no longer I but Christ."

You are smart and you are honest...I like conversing with you. :)

But you have to go beyond what you are able to formulate in your own mind and move into the miraculous grace of God to understand the gospel. (actually...the LETTER of the gospel) :)

 

[savedbygrace1]

Only those who abide in Christ. It is the "no longer I but Christ."

You are smart and you are honest...I like conversing with you. :)

But you have to go beyond what you are able to formulate in your own mind and move into the miraculous grace of God to understand the gospel. (actually...the LETTER of the gospel) :)

Please answer my question-honestly
How many people do you know who perfectly follow the letter of all Christ's commands in the Gospels

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is only "the Gift of Salvation".........there is no such thing as Initial, or Progressive, or Intermittent.

Salvation is JESUS ON THE CROSS.
He finished it.
Its not "initial"...its DONE......>He said. "IT is FINISHED".
He should know.

First, if it is finished, and there is no Initial Salvation, I must ask you: Do you believe in Universalism in that everyone will be saved?

Second, redemption is more than just the cross. Jesus’ resurrection was also instrumental and extremely necessary for us to have salvation, as well. Read 1 Corinthians 15. It talks about how those who deny the bodily resurrection is likened to denying the resurrection of Jesus. If they deny the resurrection of Jesus, they are still yet in their sins. Read the chapter and get back to me on this.

Three, believers obviously need faith in order to access the redemption accomplished with Christ’s death on the cross, His burial, and His resurrection. For without faith it is impossible to please Him (GOD) (Hebrews 11:6). For by grace are ye saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8). So no faith, and there is no grace. In fact, James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). So unless James is contradicting Paul, we must conclude that Paul is referring to our Initial Salvation when we first receive Jesus Christ as our Savior. We must conclude that this is foundational salvation, as well (Because we can confess of our sins to be forgiven of sin). But you can stay in Carnal Christian Fantasy Candy-land if you like. Most are there because they want to justify sin and also believe they are right with GOD. But we know the Bible says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). We know that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. Your view of salvation does not agree with Hebrews 5:9 (and many other verses). You must cherry pick the Bible to make your sin and still be saved doctrine work (Which is wrong).

 

[Episkopos]

Please answer my question-honestly
How many people do you know who perfectly follow the letter of all Christ's commands in the Gospels

You will have to wait and see on judgment day...UNLESS you begin to believe that through Christ ALL things are possible.

I testify to such a walk because I have walked in it. Whether or not others have, I don't know. There is no way of knowing if a person walking down the street is walking like Jesus or as a regular human. There is no way of knowing how many angels I have entertained either. The mind is insufficient to capture the works of God.

You have a limited mind...don't trust it. Use faith. Otherwise you will remain on the wilderness side of the Jordan for your whole life.

Entrance into the kingdom life is by faith...not by human reasoning.

With God ALL things are possible.

 

[ChristisGod]

You have it exactly backwards. Only through Christ are we able to fulfill the letter of the law. The law brings DEATH to the outer man...our own capabilities and strength. But that very same letter of the law SHOWS that a person who abides in Christ is walking in the power that resurrected Jesus from the dead...resurrection life!

When we walk in the power of Christ we walk in His salvation from the POWER of sin. Grace power overcomes flesh power the way that the law of flight overcomes the law of gravity.


Otherwise we are still under the Old Covenant being without strength...being without Christ....still in our sins.

Jesus did not just die because of our sins...He came to set us free from sin...by destroying its power over us...through we being crucified with Him AND being raised into His life (resurrection life). In Him is no sin.

Amen

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Imaging this .

You are a calvinist on a forum for over 20 plus years. You have not been banned when defending Calvinism and opposing Arminianism. You have many "friends" who are calvinists whom you have emailed, text, phone calls and video chats with and seek your advice on apologetic often on a weekly basis. Then one day you begin to question their doctrines and soon find yourself being banned. Then they start to mock you and gang up on you all of the time like a pack of wild animals. Then you get banned when you are reinstated when you challenge tulip or double predestination. This is how they shut you up and show no freedom of speech or opinions that oppose them. The funny thing is I'm using the exact same apologetics as I always have but I'm now using them to question the doctrines of grace and getting banned. Talk about hypocrisy.

Wow. So sorry this happened to you. Then again, darkness hates the light, brother.
All we can do is just love them, and pray for them in such situations.

Side Note:

If you don’t mind me asking: Did this happen at ChristianForums.com or was it another forum?
Again, if it is too personal, and or hurtful, I understand in not answering.
Anyways, may God bless you and may always stay strong in the power of His might.

 

[Jim B]

You may believe my understanding is lacking, but didn't I read on another thread you believed the new covenant was given to the Jews in the OT, and you asked someone who quoted it if they were a jew?

I don't recall saying that and I certainly don't believe it. The New Covenant was first given to the Jews, but by definition that can't be in the Old Testament.

Also, this has nothing to do with the OP.

 

[savedbygrace1]

You will have to wait and see on judgment day...UNLESS you begin to believe that through Christ ALL things are possible.

I testify to such a walk because I have walked in it. Whether or not others have, I don't know. There is no way of knowing if a person walking down the street is walking like Jesus or as a regular human. There is no way of knowing how many angels I have entertained either. The mind is insufficient to capture the works of God.

You have a limited mind...don't trust it. Use faith. Otherwise you will remain on the wilderness side of the Jordan for your whole life.

Entrance into the kingdom life is by faith...not by human reasoning.

Let me answer the question for you. You do not know anyone who perfectly obeys the letter of all Christ's commands in the Gospels, and neither do you, so the following is just pat words, based on the perfection no one ever achieves:

''And this letter of the law is fulfilled as we walk in the new life that is in Christ according to the standard of the New Covenant which is by grace. We need to have the law related perfectly (in the letter) in order to see how the life afforded to us by grace is able to fulfill it. No more need to compromise because of the weakness of the flesh because of the "finished" work of Christ that if walked in...matches His walk perfectly.

What we have by abiding in Christ is a walk in supernatural grace. We need to tighten the restraints of the law...establish law (as Paul says in Rom. 3:31) Otherwise we are just bringing condemnation on people for doing what is right...albeit imperfectly. Grace empowers us to fulfill the law in the letter of the law...because it is able to do so perfectly...as Jesus did.

So then...the letter kills but the Spirit gives life! You can't have one standard without the other.

Here is that dual statement again...

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord''

 

[savedbygrace1]

I sure hope there are no new christians reading these pat statements of how a christian can live their life. For no christian attains to such pat statements, including the people who make them

 

[Episkopos]

Let me answer the question for you. You do not know anyone who perfectly obeys the letter of all Christ's commands in the Gospels, and neither do you, so the following is just pat words, based on the perfection no one ever achieves:
''And this letter of the law is fulfilled as we walk in the new life that is in Christ according to the standard of the New Covenant which is by grace. We need to have the law related perfectly (in the letter) in order to see how the life afforded to us by grace is able to fulfill it. No more need to compromise because of the weakness of the flesh because of the "finished" work of Christ that if walked in...matches His walk perfectly.

What we have by abiding in Christ is a walk in supernatural grace. We need to tighten the restraints of the law...establish law (as Paul says in Rom. 3:31) Otherwise we are just bringing condemnation on people for doing what is right...albeit imperfectly. Grace empowers us to fulfill the law in the letter of the law...because it is able to do so perfectly...as Jesus did.

So then...the letter kills but the Spirit gives life! You can't have one standard without the other.

Here is that dual statement again...

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord''

Now you are proving that you walk in unbelief. No one can represent Christ within the walls of their unbelief.

You need conversion to the faith OF Jesus Christ...and not just holding to beliefs ABOUT Jesus.

I pray you stop limiting God and what His grace can do.

 

[savedbygrace1]

Now you are proving that you walk in unbelief. No one can represent Christ within the walls of their unbelief.

You need conversion to the faith OF Jesus Christ.

I pray you stop limiting God and what His grace can do.

Well how else can you reply? You are making statements concerning how a christian can live their life that neither you nor anyone else lives up to. Try remembering the second greatest commandment. To tell others they should live as you do not even try to live is not loving your neighbour, far from it

 

[savedbygrace1]

I don't recall saying that and I certainly don't believe it. The New Covenant was first given to the Jews, but by definition that can't be in the Old Testament.

Also, this has nothing to do with the OP.

I thought you'd say that as well. It's OK, I know why you are responding to me as you are, and why you write the things about me you do. You revel in debating here don't you. Im sorry for hurting you with the truths I have set out. Why don't we leave it there, I don't want to upset you anymore

 

[savedbygrace1]

I have to say, you see more and more pat head theology reeled off from those who do not reflect in their own lives what they are saying others should live up to. Neither does anyone else live up to it, A perfect example of head theology that does no one any good who seriously considers their words. Maybe I expect too much from internet debates

 

[ScottA]

We have already been over your second point. I don't know of the unsaved saying they are without sin, who has said that? I haven't accused anyone of being unsaved

The point is that John's words are believed to be about saved people, and they are not, but are about those who are not fully committed or given over to Christ. And those who are not fully given over commonly project their own lack of commitment on others and consider it ongoing sin--because it is true of themselves, not considering or understanding that what they see outwardly is not necessarily what is true inwardly--because they do not even know how things work or that such a possibility even exists. And it is their accusation that is against Christ, for it is He who lives, not that person. As He said, they do it to Him.

 

[savedbygrace1]

The point is that John's words are believed to be about saved people, and they are not, .

If we(John includes himself in the we) claim to be without sin(present tense) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us

We have spent a long time chatting. I think I will leave it there. I have enjoyed our discussion

 

[Episkopos]

Well how else can you reply? You are making statements concerning how a christian can live their life that neither you nor anyone else lives up to. Try remembering the second greatest commandment. To tell others they should live as you do not even try to live is not loving your neighbour, far from it

You are fully missing the New Covenant.

Here where I live...in Canada ...the highways have both a minimum speed (60kph) and a maximum (more of a suggestion really ;) ...100kph) That is to keep traffic flowing.

If those signs could be brought back into the 1700's...people would be talking about the "spirit" of the speed limit signs...as in...keep the traffic moving. It would not be relevant to the actual letter of the signs since those speeds were unheard of at that time. If you told the people of that time that one day there would be horseless carriages that could go well beyond the speed limit of 100kph...you would get unbelief.

That very same kind of unbelief you are now exhibiting.

Fast forward until this present day...and the speed limits make perfect sense. And under the New Covenant the letter of the law makes perfect sense....now fulfilled by those who walk in the resurrection life of Christ.

it isn't God's fault that the law is eternal. AND it shows what eternal life is. What it should show us is that the grace of Christ is there to SHOW the law for what it is. By grace we ESTABLISH law and its purpose.

Unless you engage an actual faith I will stop conversing with you...I pray you come to the faith OF Christ.

 

[savedbygrace1]

You are fully missing the New Covenant.

Here where I live...in Canada ...the highways have both a minimum speed (60kph) and a maximum (more of a suggestion really ;) ...100kph) That is to keep traffic flowing.

If those signs could be brought back into the 1700's...people would be talking about the "spirit" of the speed limit signs...as in...keep the traffic moving. It would not be relevant to the actual letter of the signs since those speeds were unheard of at that time. If you told the people of that time that one day there would be horseless carriages that could go well beyond the speed limit of 100kph...you would get unbelief.

That very same kind of unbelief you are now exhibiting.

Fast forward until this present day...and the speed limits make perfect sense. And under the New Covenant the letter of the law makes perfect sense....now fulfilled by those who walk in the resurrection life of Christ.

it isn't God's fault that the law is eternal. AND it shows what eternal life is. What it should show us is that the grace of Christ is there to SHOW the law for what it is. By grace we ESTABLISH law and its purpose.

Unless you engage an actual faith I will stop conversing with you...I pray you come to the faith OF Christ.

I'm sorry, but I have no interest with continuing this discussion with you. You are simply reeling off pat statements as to how a christian should live their life that bears no reality to yours or anybody elses life. Apart from the harm that can do to new christians, I want more from debate than that
Bye

 

[1stCenturyLady]

1. Was this addressed to believers? Absolutely
2. Do believers have the Holy Spirit? Absolutely
3. Do believers also still have "the flesh"? Absolutely
4. Does "the flesh" cause people to sin? Absolutely
5. So does this verse apply to every Christian? Absolutely
6. Do we make God a liar if we deny this truth? Absolutely

This is very basic and very simple. But people try to complicate things.

What you will never understand for some reason is Romans 8:8-9, and how we who are born again of the Spirit are not in the flesh any longer. That is because your teachers are in the flesh too, and that's who you have chosen. Romans 8:8-9 also shows that you are either in the flesh or Spirit. You are never in both. Its your choice.

Our body, itself, does not make us sin. It is merely a puppet. But your teachers told you otherwise didn't they. Our spirit and soul is already born again. That is where sin dwelt inside of us; but that old man was crucified, and those who are in the Spirit keep themselves. 1 John 5:18.

 

[ChristisGod]

Wow. So sorry this happened to you. Then again, darkness hates the light, brother.
All we can do is just love them, and pray for them in such situations.

Side Note:

If you don’t mind me asking: Did this happen at ChristianForums.com or was it another forum?
Again, if it is too personal, and or hurtful, I understand in not answering.
Anyways, may God bless you and may always stay strong in the power of His might.

carm