Scripture in Context

[rwb]

Hebrews 6:4-6

4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Heb 6:4-6

This passage is commonly used to prove those who have been saved can fall away from faith and be lost. IOW those who do not believe in eternal security. The passage does not say it is possible for them to fall away, it says "For it is IMPOSSIBLE"! Look for example at vs 18 where the verse says "impossible for God to lie". We wouldn't read this verse and think that God might lie, and the verse tells us why we can know this without doubt. "we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us."

Hebrews 6:18 (KJV) That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Because God cannot lie (it is impossible) we have Him as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast in Jesus. Not in our ability to keep ourselves from falling, but because God cannot lie and His has given us Christ to be an anchor of our soul (life), therefore our hope and trust is in Him doing what He promised.

Hebrews 6:19-20 (KJV) Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

When we read the full context of this passage, we find it is impossible for those who have been saved to lose the eternal spiritual life we received when we were born through His Spirit in us. Just as the earth drinks in the rain and brings forth herbs fit (meet) for them who toiled as a blessing from God, so too, that which brings forth thorns and briers is rejected by God, and in the end burned up. BUT...such a word of promise...Paul said he was persuaded of better things for those who have been born again, because their new life will accompany salvation, even though Paul felt the warning and danger of those who are false (thorns & briers) among those who are eternally secure in Christ, and impossible that they should fall away! If they could they would be forever lost because God will not again put His Son to open, public shame by going often to the cross.

Hebrews 6:4-9 (KJV) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

 

[marks]

Still waiting for Heb 6:4-6.

Hebrews 6:1-9 KJV
1) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3) And this will we do, if God permit.
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7) For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8) But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

This passage has caused many to fear for their salvation, and causes them to look to their own works to "continue being saved" instead of looking to Jesus' finished work. But is that right?

Revelation 2:4-5 KJV
4) Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

I wonder how the church in Ephesus would see this?

Remember therefore from where you are fallen, and repent . . .

For it is impossible . . . If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;

This interpretation, that these are born again Christians who cannot be renewed to repentance, seems to bring disharmony. "It is impossible", is what God said here. So why tell the Ephesians who had fallen to repent, and do the first things.

4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It is impossible for those who have trusted Jesus . . . for those who have been regenerated . . . for those who are in Christ . . . for the born again . . . but none of these are said, nor any other way of specifying that these in particular are the regenerate.

• Once enlightened . . . understanding and knowledge
• tasted of the heavenly gift . . . have experienced something of it
• were made partakers (metochos {partners}, not koinonos {sharers}) of the Holy Spirit . . . participated in doings of the Holy Spirit, such as the 12, then 70 disciples sent out, working miracles
• have tasted the good word of God . . . have experienced something of it
• and the the powers of the world (lit. aion, age) to come . . .

The powers of the age to come. The kingdom age. This is what Jesus did, He came to Israel offering them the promised kingdom, and showed them the powers that will be in that age. Disease, deformity, no more. No more evil spirits harassing, no more sickness.

Jesus came working sings and wonders, the powers of the coming kingdom. Many believed, and many rejected.

For it is impossible . . . to renew them to repentance . . .

Jesus spoke of what would not be forgiven,

Matthew 12:22-32 KJV
22) Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23) And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

The consensus at the time was that only Messiah could cast out a "blind/mute" demon, which was what Jesus did. And many believed.

24) But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

The Pharisees should have believed also, but even with the miracles right in front of their faces, they claimed that the Spirit by which Jesus cast out demons was the Devil.

25) And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26) And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27) And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

This was what they were denying.

29) Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30) He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

There are two sides in this war, and the one side isn't fighting against itself, the two war with each other. It's like Jesus is saying, "Think, man, think!"

31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world (lit. aion, age), neither in the world (age) to come.

The Holy Spirit was in Christ to work signs and wonders that the people would believe in Him. Hebrews calls this "tasting the powers of the age to come". The Pharisees claimed Jesus had an evil spirit, that is, saying that the Holy Spirit was evil, so that they could deny that He was Christ, and deny tasting the powers of the age to come. They'll not be forgiven in this age, nor the age to come. Those who deny Jesus in the kingdom age will not be forgiven.

John wrote concerning the disbelief of the Pharisees,

John 12:37-41 KJV
37) But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

They chose not to believe, being envious, wanting the power and the glory for themselves.

39) Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41) These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

But they became blinded, just as God hardened Pharoah's heart (turned to stone) after Pharoah hardened his own heart (become wooden). They would not believe, therefore they could not believe. They blasphemed the Holy Spirit, choosing disbelief, and God made that their state.

For it is impossible to renew them to repentence.

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

From Post 54:

I'm seeing three different branches in that passage, two that are in Christ, and one that is not.

John 15:1-6 KJV
1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2) Every (1) branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every (2) branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6) If (3) a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

There is
1 - a branch in Christ that bears fruit.
2 - a branch in Christ that does not bear fruit.
3 - a branch not in Christ, that is cast out.

In this passage, what defines those who we call "saved"? Is it being called a branch? Or is it being called "in Christ"?

In Romans, Paul talks of natural branches, and wild branches, that can be grafted in. The wild branch is called a branch even not being grafted into the tree, so in that place, it does not mean "born again". Also in Romans, and in a variety of places, "in Christ" is both directly stated, and implicit to rebirth and salvation.

Here in John, Jesus is speaking concerning the branch in Him that bears fruit, the branch in Him that doesn't bear fruit, and the branch that is not in Him.

From one of my Interlinears,

View attachment 38102
Something interesting to notice, "remain ye" is an Aorist tense, like our simple past tense. "Bearing fruit" is Present Active, that is, ongoing.

Remaining in Jesus, according to the grammar of the passage, is something you did, and bearing fruit is something you do now.

But again the simplest way to understand the passage is to recognize that "not remaining" in Christ does not imply that you were once "in Christ".

Much love!

I believe it can mean that a person who chooses not to abide in Christ, are burned.

Perhaps it the conscious that is burned. Which within a person they know the right thing to things are by Gods heavenly ways rather than their own selfish ways.

Then again I could be wrong. This is just one section Jesus talks about this, and there is another section which people rejoice in the word when they hear it however because of persecution of the word people do not continue in faith, or the riches of the world choke them out, or the evil one takes away.

 

[marks]

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

I'm glad you brought out this part. The writer was not talking about saved people. And his anology is of the good ground with good fruit, or bad ground with bad fruit, which is rejected (specifically "rejected after testing").

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

Hebrews 6:1-9 KJV
1) Therefore leav

For it is impossible to renew them to repentence.

Much love!

I think it is impossible for you to change their mind. They themselves have to choose to change their mind, and God is patiently waiting calling to all.

8‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone again this year, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine. But if not, you can cut it down.’ ”

 

[marks]

I believe it can mean that a person who chooses not to abide in Christ, are burned.

I think that's exactly what it means. People always make a choice, whether to accept or reject Jesus. Those who reject Jesus, are choosing to not abide in Jesus, and yes, they are to be gathered up and burned.

But it doesn't mean that a person who is in Christ will stop being in Christ, which would contradict many many places in the Bible.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I think it is impossible for you to change their mind. They themselves have to choose to change their mind, and God is patiently waiting calling to all.

They cannot change their minds. It is impossible. Not difficult, not unlikely, not, they have to do it. No one can. It's impossible.

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

But it doesn't mean that a person who is in Christ will stop being in Christ, which would contradict many many places in the Bible.

Much love!

If they renounce their faith, and evict God out of their house, Jesus continues to knock at the door.

 

[MatthewG]

They cannot change their minds. It is impossible. Not difficult, not unlikely, not, they have to do it. No one can. It's impossible.

Much love!

I disagree. We as individuals can not make them choose faith. They can repent. To just deem impossibility is a mistake. All things are possible with God, if someone chooses to look towards him, and to have faith.

 

[marks]

I disagree. We as individuals can not make them choose faith. They can repent. To just deem impossibility is a mistake. All things are possible with God, if someone chooses to look towards him, and to have faith.

I'm not the one saying it's impossible, God is. So either you believe Him or you don't but that's what the passage says. It is impossible to renew them to repentance. Impossible.

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

I'm not the one saying it's impossble, God is. So either you believe Him or you don't but that's what the passage says. It is impossible to renew them to repentance. Impossible.

Much love!

God is or is Paul writing to someone? Most certainly lets not be intellectually dishonest, @marks. I believe all things are possible with God, and people can repent, they must choose themself. It is impossible for anyone else though, to make them choose that.

 

[marks]

If they renounce their faith, and evict God out of their house, Jesus continues to knock at the door.

If the were crucified with Christ, who do they go back to being?

For you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life appears, you also SHALL appear with Him in glory.

Does God resurrect your old man for you?

If you have been raised with Christ, set your mind on things above . . . for you have died . . .

We've been killed, and resurrected, will we now be resurrected again as the flesh man? We are raised in Christ. Who will raise our flesh man?

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

If the were crucified with Christ, who do they go back to being?

For you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life appears, you also SHALL appear with Him in glory.

Does God resurrect your old man for you?

If you have been raised with Christ, set your mind on things above . . . for you have died . . .

We've been killed, and resurrected, will we now be resurrected again as the flesh man? We are raised in Christ. Who will raise our flesh man?

Much love!

What does that have to do with people deciding to leave faith, other than the common phrase which to me a judgement made by man and not by God.

"They were never saved to begin with" such a grand judgement people make which is ridiculing of others, who really may have actually had faith but walked away from God, based on their circumstances which are unqiue to them, and God allows them to choose to have him in their life, or not.

There is the Parable of Jesus,

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”


Some people are rooted deeply,
Some people are not rooted so deeply,
Some people end up going for other things,
Some people do continue in faith.

God sees all these problems and issuses. He sees those who include him in their life, then stop including them in their life. He is a good God, who will judge rightly that is for sure.

 

[marks]

God is or is Paul writing to someone? Most certainly lets not be intellectually dishonest, @marks. I believe all things are possible with God, and people can repent, they must choose themself. It is impossible for anyone else though, to make them choose that.

No, let's NOT be intellectually dishonest, and let's not make this personal, OK?

But hear the Word of the LORD:

Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Now, with that being said, I don't think there is anyone alive now who has 'tasted the powers of the age to come'. I think this was the signs and wonders that Jesus did. And therefore, no one alive today is part of this. It was the people then, who saw Jesus, heard Him, were healed by Him, even worked the miracles Jesus worked - even Judas Iscariot.

If they deny the Spirit in Jesus, if they fall from the revelation they received, they do not come back. They are the earth which produces thorns.

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

No, let's NOT be intellectually dishonest, and let's not make this personal, OK?

But hear the Word of the LORD:

Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Now, with that being said, I don't think there is anyone alive now who has 'tasted the powers of the age to come'. I think this was the signs and wonders that Jesus did. And therefore, no one alive today is part of this. It was the people then, who saw Jesus, heard Him, were healed by Him, even worked the miracles Jesus worked - even Judas Iscariot.

If they deny the Spirit in Jesus, if they fall from the revelation they received, they do not come back. They are the earth which produces thorns.

Much love!

Not wanting to this to be personal; just honest.

The words are from the writer of Hebrews.

Do you not think that we are able to have a taste of heaven, by and through the holy spirit and what it produces with the Lord Jesus Christ living with-in us? Do you believe it is impossible for people who are faithful to never leave faith?

I believe people are able to have a taste of the Holy Ghost, and it produces great things that come from God in a believers life who abide in Christ.

There is a great difference, between the flesh and the spirit.

Paul wrote and told the people in Galatia,

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.


Jesus promised to send the spirit.
John the Baptist said Jesus would baptize in the Holy Ghost and Fire.

 

[rwb]

I'm glad you brought out this part. The writer was not talking about saved people. And his anology is of the good ground with good fruit, or bad ground with bad fruit, which is rejected (specifically "rejected after testing").

Much love!

I see it as a warning to those who are eternally saved but see others professing Christ who fall away. Believers should not be surprised that some will fall away, who were not eternally saved. I believe that's why the analogy of the earth bringing forth both good and bad fruit with only the bad being burned up. It's similar to the parable of the wheat and tares growing together until Christ returns. Those who have been truly enlightened through the Holy Spirit are forever counted as wheat that will be gathered unto the Lord, while the tares are burned up. Because God is not forgetful of our labor of love shown in His name, so we have His promise, just as Abraham did of being heirs of the promise because it is impossible for God to lie.

Hebrews 6:10-20 (KJV) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Much love to you also Marks.

 

[marks]

I see it as a warning to those who are eternally saved but see others professing Christ who fall away. Believers should not be surprised that some will fall away, who were not eternally saved. I believe that's why the analogy of the earth bringing forth both good and bad fruit with only the bad being burned up. It's similar to the parable of the wheat and tares growing together until Christ returns. Those who have been truly enlightened through the Holy Spirit are forever counted as wheat that will be gathered unto the Lord, while the tares are burned up. Because God is not forgetful of our labor of love shown in His name, so we have His promise, just as Abraham did of being heirs of the promise because it is impossible for God to lie.

Yes, there is so much in the NT of testing people to prove what is true about them. Someone professes faith, but that doesn't mean they are born again. Circumstances in life will be contrary to us, and our response will demonstrate what is true of us. Do we believe? Or do we not actually believe? Those who are true will endure, and those who are not will fall away, not from a faith they don't actually have, but from their profession of faith.

Much love!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

1 Corinthians 9:16-27
(16) For if I proclaim the gospel, no glory is to me; for necessity is laid on me, and it is woe to me if I do not proclaim the gospel.
(17) For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if unwillingly, I am entrusted with a stewardship.
(18) What then is my reward? That proclaiming the gospel I may make the gospel of Christ free, so as not to use fully my authority in the gospel.
(19) For being free of all, I enslaved myself to all, that I might gain the more.
(20) And I became as a Jew to the Jews, that I might gain Jews; to those under Law as under Law, that I might gain those under Law;
(21) to those without Law as without Law (not being without Law of God, but under the law of Christ), that I might gain those without Law.
(22) I became to the weak as weak, that I might gain the weak. To all I have become all things, that in any and every way I might save some.
(23) And I do this for the gospel, that I might become a fellow partaker of it.
(24) Do you not know that those running in a stadium indeed all run, but one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain.
(25) But everyone striving controls himself in all things. Then those truly that they may receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible.
(26) So I run accordingly, as not uncertainly; so I fight, as not beating air;
(27) but I buffet my body and lead it captive, lest proclaiming to others I myself might be disapproved.

Paul recognizes that God has laid a charge on him to preach the Gospel, and so preaching it is not to his credit, because it's his duty to do so. No reward there.

However, he's determined that he would not do as others did, that is, take in his living from others, but rather he worked as well as "Apostled", even to the point of supporting those with him also.

And I do this for the gospel, that I might become a fellow partaker of it.

He's not just "doing his duty", he also wants reward.

You see the world's athletes, how they compete, how they train, how they run, and that's for fading crown. He wants to run that way, since after all, he's competing for an eternal crown! He wants his reward.

So he even treats himself harshly, making his body his slave, so that even as he's preaching to others, that he himself won't be rejected from that testing.

There are a couple of ways to take this passage. One is, what he'd been talking about, rejected from receiving his reward. That's the "apparent context". Another is, as he's talking about preaching, that he be rejected from salvation. But let's stay with the meaning of the word shall we please? This word is, "reject after testing". It's like, you claim this clear rod is unbreakable with steel rod. So you hit the one against the other as hard as you can, and it either breaks or it doesn't.

This isn't describing how an unbreakable rod becomes breakable, it's about how the testing shows you the true nature of what is being tested.

A modern day example would be a man like Charles Templeton, who, after successfully leading arena evangelism, seemingly leading a great many people to Christ, he himself walked away from it, and later wrote how that in fact he never did believe all these things. But he was a very talented man.

Whichever way you look at this passage, it makes no such statement that the born again become unborn again. If it did, you'd have a real issue between it, and passages such as,

Colossians 3:1-4
(1) If, then, you were raised with Christ, seek the things above, where Christ is sitting at the right of God; Psa. 110:1
(2) mind the things above, not the things on the earth.
(3) For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God.
(4) Whenever Christ our life is revealed, then also you will be revealed with Him in glory.

This passage plainly states that those who are "died and risen with Christ" here in this world, that these will in fact appear with Him in glory when He appears.

The first passage contains an ambiguity, and therefore needs to be interpreted by plainly stated passages which address that ambiguity.

So the question is, was Paul speaking of rewards, as the context indicates? Or should we give greater weight to "proclaiming", that is, preaching the Gospel, and think of this as a salvation matter?

Gaining or losing rewards is something addressed in other places such as 1 Corinthians 3, saved, but without reward.

If we are to look at this regarding Paul's "saved state", "reprobate" or "rejected after testing" isn't a word describing a change of state, only the revealing of the true state having been tested. This also is spoken of elsewhere in the same terms, those who go out were never part.

Much love!

Very good. In other words, he's practicing what he preaches, runs the race, controls his flesh so that people won't see him as a lot hot air, or a hypocrite, then disapprove (cast him away, dismiss his theology).

 

[marks]

Do you not think that we are able to have a taste of heaven, by and through the holy spirit and what it produces with the Lord Jesus Christ living with-in us?

I think "tasted of the powers of the age to come" refers to the kingdom age, and that Jesus was giving a taste of what it would be like, and in doing so, showing Himself to be Christ. This is a specific thing.

Do you believe it is impossible for people who are faithful to never leave faith?

I believe it's impossible that those who have been raised with Christ to die again. I believe that all who have been raised with Christ will in fact appear with Him in glory, exactly as the Bible says.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

I believe that those who's citizenship is in heaven, that their vile bodies will be changed to be like Jesus' glorious body, exactly like the Bible says.

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation (Lit. Citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

I believe that we who are the children of God will become just like Jesus when we see Him, exactly like the Bible says.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

So you ask me if the faithful may be lost? I can answer with the full confidence found in plainly stated Scriptures, that those who are raised with Christ, who's citizenship is in heaven, who are the children of God, that no, none of these will fall away, all shall appear with Him, all shall be resurrected like Him, all shall become like Him.

Not wanting to this to be personal; just honest.

Then don't make it person, like implying I'm being intellectually dishonest.

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

I agree with a lot of your points, thank you for sharing Marks. There are some things that we see differently on. It is cool, just talking to you man sometimes people will get defensive and its understandable.