Scripture in Context

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Truthnightmare

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The head of the believer is Christ, and that remains true regardless of whom your pastor is. In this instance, the pastor had lost his first love, and that if he didn't repent, and do what he did at the beginning, Jesus would remove his candlestick from his place, that is, remove his church.

I don't imaging that Jesus removing the church from the pastor means He's abandoning the church, He'd doing it to care for the church. "Church" in this case referring to the church of Ephesus, his congregation. As I see it.

Much love!

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

It says church which would be plural, because the church is the body of believers.

The scripture does not reference the pastor
( singular) because the pastor is not the church.

Revelation to this is show in Matthew 5

And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

The church is the body, and we are to remove people that are infecting the church because if you don’t the infection will spread and the whole church will go to hell.

If the whole body (church) becomes infected and doesn’t repent, the Lord will remove the church.

Notice. The whole body (church) could be cast into hell.

So we see “removing” a part or a whole is lose of salvation and hell is the consequence.
 

marks

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For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

It says church which would be plural, because the church is the body of believers.

The scripture does not reference the pastor
( singular) because the pastor is not the church.

Revelation to this is show in Matthew 5

And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

The church is the body, and we are to remove people that are infecting the church because if you don’t the infection will spread and the whole church will go to hell.

If the whole body (church) becomes infected and doesn’t repent, the Lord will remove the church.

Notice. The whole body (church) could be cast into hell.

So we see “removing” a part or a whole is lose of salvation and hell is the consequence.
In Matthew Jesus was addressing people in general about sin in their own lives. And Jesus, in the Revelation, was addressing a pastor who had lost his first love. In that Jesus told him if he didn't repent in do what he did at first, Jesus would take away his church, his congregation.

It's better to cut off your hand than you be cast into hell, and Jesus doesn't want a pastor without love. But that doesn't mean a pastor who lacks love that his congregation will be cast into hell.

This are passages about two different things.

Much love!
 

Truthnightmare

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In Matthew Jesus was addressing people in general about sin in their own lives. And Jesus, in the Revelation, was addressing a pastor who had lost his first love. In that Jesus told him if he didn't repent in do what he did at first, Jesus would take away his church, his congregation.

It's better to cut off your hand than you be cast into hell, and Jesus doesn't want a pastor without love. But that doesn't mean a pastor who lacks love that his congregation will be cast into hell.

This are passages about two different things.

Much love!
In Matthew Jesus was addressing people in general
No, he wasn’t… look at what he said.

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

People in general are not members of the body.

When Christ spoke to the churches was he speaking to people in general? Of course not he was speaking to the body of believers.

The passages are indeed connected, but you can’t change church to people in general.
 

marks

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No, he wasn’t… look at what he said.

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

People in general are not members of the body.

When Christ spoke to the churches was he speaking to people in general? Of course not he was speaking to the body of believers.

The passages are indeed connected, but you can’t change church to people in general.
"members" here mean "body parts", and is what Jesus said, "if your eye offend thee . . ."

Jesus taught the multitude that followed Him in the sermon on the mount, as we call it. And He addressed the pastor of the church in Ephesus in the Revelation.

This is a perfect example of the need to keep Scriptures in their contexts.

Much love!
 

Truthnightmare

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In Matthew Jesus was addressing people in general about sin in their own lives. And Jesus, in the Revelation, was addressing a pastor who had lost his first love. In that Jesus told him if he didn't repent in do what he did at first, Jesus would take away his church, his congregation.

It's better to cut off your hand than you be cast into hell, and Jesus doesn't want a pastor without love. But that doesn't mean a pastor who lacks love that his congregation will be cast into hell.

This are passages about two different things.

Much love!
Romans 16
Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ

Original Word: ἐκκλησία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ekklésia
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-klay-see'-ah)
Definition: an assembly, a (religious) congregation
Usage: an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers

The church is a body of believers not general people.

The church does not belong to the pastor, the pastor is merely part of the church.

The letter was written to the church, not the pastor.
 

Truthnightmare

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"members" here mean "body parts", and is what Jesus said, "if your eye offend thee . . ."

Jesus taught the multitude that followed Him in the sermon on the mount, as we call it. And He addressed the pastor of the church in Ephesus in the Revelation.

This is a perfect example of the need to keep Scriptures in their contexts.

Much love!
You are to intelligent to not to understand this! Maybe Paul can set you straight…

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

We are not talking about literal body parts, can your foot talk?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Again can your eye talk to your hand? Not literal.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

God was not writing to the pastor, the pastor is only part of the church.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
 
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marks

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God was not writing to the pastor, the pastor is only part of the church.
That's exactly who Jesus was addressing. Not a "celestial angel", that doesn't fit the context. He addressed the pastor of the church of Ephesus.

Revelation 2:1-7
(1) Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
(2) I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
(3) And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
(4) Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
(5) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
(6) But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
(7) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

You are to intelligent to not to understand this!
Thank you! So then maybe I actually DO understand this, eh?
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

We are not talking about literal body parts, can your foot talk?
It's always, or so very often, right there in the context. Here,

1 Corinthians 12:13-19
(13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(14) For the body is not one member, but many.
(15) If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
(16) And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
(17) If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
(18) But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
(19) And if they were all one member, where were the body?

Paul defines what he's talking about. Here, we are baptized into a body, he's speaking of the body of Christ. And he goes on to use our personal bodies as a metaphor for His body.

Ephesians 5:25-30
(25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
(26) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
(27) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
(28) So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
(29) For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
(30) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Here, the context is again plain. Men are to love their wives as they do their own body. That's not church, that's your hair and your toes and everything in between. Then he shifts the use, we are members of His body. The context tells you about each.

And again, Jesus,

Matthew 5:29-30
(29) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
(30) And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Context again informs us of what he's talking about, it's your eye, your hand, if they cause you to sin, cut them off, better that than your whole body be tossed into hell.

Of course, Jesus said, "If your eye cause you to sin", but is it your eye that causes sin? Or is it the flesh? We have to cut off the flesh and cast it away.

Now, you can, and many do, interpret allegorically/metaphorically/spiritually/however you want to characterize it as though Jesus intended that His message would be understood to be instucting to cast out the church-goer who causes others to sin, lest the rest of the church be cast into hell, and all salvation lost, but the wording of the text simply isn't there.

Much love!
 

Truthnightmare

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That's exactly who Jesus was addressing. Not a "celestial angel", that doesn't fit the context. He addressed the pastor of the church of Ephesus.
You are wrong… for a couple of reasons.
1) The word “pastor” is not in the text, you are adding that.

Revelation 2:9
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

The word for church in the manuscripts is ἐκκλησία, ας, ἡ.. It is a feminine noun.

No where is pastor/Shepard ποιμήν, ένος, ὁ mentioned… And ποιμήν, ένος, ὁ is a masculine noun.

Why change what is written?

Here is another reason you are incorrect.
If the letter to Ephesus was to the pastor, then the letter to the church of Smyrna was written to the pastor… Big problem there bud.

8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison,

If this letter is to the pastor (a masculine noun) representing what is singular, then why does the text say “some of you”?

Has not scripture corrected you?

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

All these people make up the church… and pastor/teacher isn’t even first.


.
 

marks

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You are wrong… for a couple of reasons.
1) The word “pastor” is not in the text, you are adding that.

Revelation 2:9
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
To the "messenger" . . .

The word there is angel, aggelos, messenger. Mostly used for celestial beings in the Bible, but not exclusively, and here does not describe an angel, so this is one of those times it's speaking of a human. And I accept your correction, the word is messenger, I'll stick with that. Thank you!
Here is another reason you are incorrect.
If the letter to Ephesus was to the pastor, then the letter to the church of Smyrna was written to the pastor… Big problem there bud.

Revelation 2:8-11
(8) And unto the angel (singular) of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
(9) I know thy (singular) works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
(10) Fear none of those things which thou(singular) shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you (plural) into prison, that ye (plural) may be tried; and ye (plural) shall have tribulation ten days: be thou(singular) faithful unto death, and I will give thee (singular) a crown of life.
(11) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Jesus addresses the messenger and then includes the others that some of them shall be tested, then goes back to speaking directly to the messenger.

If you follow the grammar it's all clear.

Much love!
 
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marks

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It's the same with all 7 letters. They are called the letters to the churches, but they are actually addressed to individual "messengers".

Revelation 2:12-17
(12) And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
(13) I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
(14) But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
(15) So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
(16) Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
(17) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

This is all addressed to a certain individual. To the messenger of the church in Pergamos.

Much love!
 

Truthnightmare

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To the "messenger" . . .

The word there is angel, aggelos, messenger. Mostly used for celestial beings in the Bible, but not exclusively, and here does not describe an angel, so this is one of those times it's speaking of a human.

We're buds now? That's nice!

Revelation 2:8-11
(8) And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
(9) I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
(10) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
(11) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Jesus addresses the messenger - singular - I know your works - singular - fear none of those things you - singular - will suffer, the devil will cast some of you - plural - into prison, ye - plural might be tried, ye- plural - shall have tribulation, be thou - singular faithful.

If you follow the grammar it's all clear. Jesus is addressing an individual and some of it concerns the group that is with him. This is the pastor and congregation, as we'd call it today. But we can stick with messenger, that's good.

Much love!
This is the pastor and congregation, as we'd call it today.
Not so… The letter was written to the churches that were set up in this fashion…

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.”

So according to what you presented, the letter was not written to the apostles which are first, or the prophets which are second, it was written to the pastor/teacher which is third.

The text reads to the “church” it does not say “to the pastor of a church”

But let’s throw a twist in it… Paul wrote letters to churches.. were these letters to the pastor also?

O boy…
 

Truthnightmare

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1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

10 Now I beseech you, brethren,
 

mailmandan

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But we walk in the Spirit because it is a life of peace and contentment to walk with Jesus...we don't walk with the Lord out of fear of losing salvation. That must be a horrible way to live.
Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I had absolutely no assurance of salvation because I was trusting in works for salvation and my idea of walking with the Lord was measure up in good works "or else" lose your salvation and I was miserable! :eek: Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life. After my conversion I now have assurance of salvation (1 John 5:11-13) and I walk with the Lord out of love and gratitude for everything He has done for me. (Romans 5:5; 1 John 4:7,19) Praise God! :)
 
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Augustin56

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All these things can affect our readings, yes. And some people use this fact as a means to misdirect from the real discussion.

I never hesitate to compare translations, and - at least the NT - to look at the original language. In this case the questions over "private interpretation" are answered right there within the context in using genea, indicating that we're talking about the prophecy's origin.

2 Peter 1:16-21
(16) For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
(17) For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(18) And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
(19) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
(20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
(21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Peter is giving his bona fides, that he saw Jesus transfigured, and he heard God speak from the cloud. And he gives a greater attestation to the prophetic word.

I agree, the prophets did much more than foretell the future, but I think in this instance, the "more sure word of prophecy" is what serves to show that Jesus is the Christ. That Peter saw, and heard, but greater than that, the prophets foretold His coming, and Jesus fulfilled their prophecies. At least that's what I think.

Much love!
I appreciate and admire the seriousness with which you seek the Lord and His message. Would that all people on earth would do the same! So many are, at best, luke warm. They need prayers.

I think many leave out one of the most important parts of understanding Scripture. The Church. St. Paul says, in 1 Tim 3:15, that the Church is the "pillar and foundation of truth." It is the Church that Christ founded that gave us the NT, and is the authoritative interpreter of Scripture. Not the individual, trying to reinvent the theological wheel by him/herself. It is the Church that has Christ's promise to never teach doctrinal error. (Matt. 16:18) Not the individual. This is not to say we shouldn't read the Bible, however. We should, but in light of the Church's teaching and interpretation.
 

amigo de christo

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I absolutely agree in Biblical truth - all of it. Snd btw, our whole concept of agape comes only with the TRUTH, the WAY AND THE LIFE.
I was taught in a wonderful Bible based church, filled with love and truth. My Pastor was brilliant, highly educated and spirit filled. A well balanced church covers both good and evil. The motto of our church was WIN, EQUIP AND SEND. The Christian really needs to know what sin is, look in the mirror, be honest with himself and fess up to God and others in humility. We should know why we needed forgiveness. We need to know the consequences of sin and the healing power of God. And we are thankful in all good things everyday and forever.
The other facet of believing in Christ is how His compassion, mercy and forgiveness has changed us. When we begin to absorb that to a level at which we can reflect it towards others, well then we are getting it.
We have to spread the gospel with an attitude of compassion, mercy, and forgiveness -- not with judgment and hostility. Leave the judgments up to God. And I say that because I have been judgmental at times, critical of others; but it is not the way to win friends and influence people.
The problem is not with the words you just wrote . for it is truth .
the problem is that many have no idea of what it means to WIN , AND FOR SURE not to equip
but they do send , that they do . THEY send them to teach the people the same way their lost ones taught them .
Many can say this my friend . Also many see the idea of being judgmental dead wrong .
I mean if peter , paul or others were to witness to these churches , HELL they would be called judgmental .
You see the churches have been taught THE WRONG WAY to evangelize , to witness , and it has equipped many
but not through biblical doctrine , OH NO not that pattern . but rather through their own ideals and teachings
they equip them . SO you see , WHEN I SAY ITS BIBLE TIME . OH YEAH I mean ITS BIBLE TIME .
IF we want to learn how the true ones did things , THEN OPEN IT and NEVER SHUT IT .
 
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Peterlag

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I appreciate and admire the seriousness with which you seek the Lord and His message. Would that all people on earth would do the same! So many are, at best, luke warm. They need prayers.

I think many leave out one of the most important parts of understanding Scripture. The Church. St. Paul says, in 1 Tim 3:15, that the Church is the "pillar and foundation of truth." It is the Church that Christ founded that gave us the NT, and is the authoritative interpreter of Scripture. Not the individual, trying to reinvent the theological wheel by him/herself. It is the Church that has Christ's promise to never teach doctrinal error. (Matt. 16:18) Not the individual. This is not to say we shouldn't read the Bible, however. We should, but in light of the Church's teaching and interpretation.
May I ask you one question? Are you Catholic?
 

Ronald David Bruno

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You see the churches have been taught THE WRONG WAY to evangelize , to witness , and it has equipped many
but not through biblical doctrine ,
"the churches"? Which ones specifically? That is a broad statement. There are probably a couple million. Which ones have you attended that you have analyzed and determined _ by your yardstick of measurements _ evangelize wrongly.
And then the next question to follow that would be, Is your approach better?
 

Truthnightmare

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Dec 11, 2019
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1 Thess
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
(Actually, that's two questions. :) ) But, Yes, and Yes, I am.

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Why participate in division?
 

marks

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Oct 10, 2018
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Not so… The letter was written to the churches that were set up in this fashion…
Check the letters. They are all addressed to the individual messengers. This seems to escape many people. Just take a look.

Much love!