Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About - #5, Book of Acts

[Ronald Nolette]

I wonder if Wrangler is a JW, I’m not saying he is but he sounds a lot like one.
In John 20:28, after Jesus revealed himself to Thomas, Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God”. Jesus would have rebuked Thomas if he wasn’t indeed Almighty God. Just my thoughts on this issue. Blessings.

In teh original Greek it is even more definitive. thomas actually said to Jesus "THE Lord of me and THE God of me". Same thing today as when Jesus walked the earth. religious folk choose not to see what is in front of them for they have been deceived by slick human philosophy. My heart breaks.

 

[amadeus]

I don't think this needs to be a fight.

No it need not be a fight... but men often go that way!

Why can't each person decide the best way to describe the meaning and message to make sense and apply to their path in life?

Each person may indeed decide his own "way", but is that always also the "best way? All alone he is described by the words written by a prophet of God more than 2500 years ago:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

That way, I believe, is the way of any man going his own way and never really knowing the best way to go... When he asks for, seeks and receives God's help there will a different and better result.

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8

 

[Wrangler]

I already showed you it did.

No, you did not do this.

Many here refer to a verse claiming it “supports” their doctrine. Such efforts are a far cry from an explicit teaching in Scripture, such as For us, there is one God, the Father. Reading trinitarian doctrine into unitarian text does NOT overcome explicit teachings in Scripture such as 1 Corinthians 8:6, the Sh’ma and the resurrected Jesus admitting he is going to his God.

 

[Wrangler]

So Thomas was correct when he called Jesus God, right?

Thomas did not make the statement Jesus was God. It was merely an exclamation.

When I drop my wine glass and exclaim, “oh crap!” I am not literally claiming the wine glass is feces.

 

[Wrangler]

But the devil lied to Eve. god didn't lie to us when He inspired John 1:1.

What do you think these following verses mean, for you obviously do not accept them as written.

Clearly, you don't want to stick with the OP for the Book of Acts destroys trinitarianism in no uncertain terms.

John 1:1 is referred to so desperately precisely because it is vague enough to give hope to the hopeless doctrine of the trinity, which does not even have Jesus in the text. To properly understand John 1:1, you have to look at it in light of John 20:31. where he explicitly states everything he wrote is to prove Jesus is the Messiah. This means John 1:1 cannot be taken to support the false claim that Jesus is God incarnate.

Words are not beings. I know we've delved into this many times. In addition to John 20:31, you have to look at John 1:1 from the perspective of fulfilling Deutoronomy 18:15-18, where God says he'll put his words into a man among the people. Jesus is the man who fulfills this prophecy and he said it. Jesus said they are not his words but he only says what the Father tells him to say.

Of course, none of this means anything to you because your are all about your false doctrine, no matter what Scripture says. You just want to skip over verses that destroy your doctrine and go back to imposing trinitarian doctrine onto unitarian text.

 

[Emily Nghiem]

What is their “golden cow”, at least in your opinion?

The Golden Cow for the JW: they require their ELDERS to change Organization policy and teaching
before they can amend how they teach anything, whether the Bible or medical policies they approve.

For Spiritual Healing to be approved, this would need to be proven MEDICALLY so it becomes
mainstream medical practice.

If it taught as a method of confessing and forgiving sins that people are HEALED,
it is possible to teach this method if the ELDERS of the organization agree to research, develop and adapt it
as a policy that would help prevent conditions otherwise requiring "blood procedures".
So spiritual healing would HELP JW to follow their own conditions against taking, exchanging or sharing blood.
By correcting, preventing or healing conditions BEFORE they would require any such surgery or invasive procedures requiring
blood transfusions or transplants etc.

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Thomas did not make the statement Jesus was God. It was merely an exclamation.

When I drop my wine glass and exclaim, “oh crap!” I am not literally claiming the wine glass is feces.

The trinity is not in the Bible. The entire Bible is written by monotheist Jews who reject the trinity to this day. Therefore, projecting trinitarian doctrine onto unitarian text is futile.

I like both @BobVance and @Wrangler 's posts.

@Wrangler it is equally futile to impose "Unitarian-only" positions and arguments
on people who either see God in terms of the Three being one,
or people like me who tolerate and include BOTH ways and other variations of these ways.

I find that God's truth is universally inclusive and accounts for the entire
process of reaching understanding, including all the ways of depicting and explaining God and Jesus.

I find that consensus in Christ Jesus on God's truth is the
INTERSECTION where all these paths AGREE
(such as agreeing on John 10:29-30 being TRUE
and agreeing on Baptizing all Nations in the name of the
Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

This path of righteousness is NARROW. Very few points and fine lines
where we ALL AGREE IN CHRIST.

The Bible even warns us the gate of righteousness is narrow
and few shall find it.

 

[Emily Nghiem]

No it need not be a fight... but men often go that way!


Each person may indeed decide his own "way", but is that always also the "best way? All alone he is described by the words written by a prophet of God more than 2500 years ago:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

That way, I believe, is the way of any man going his own way and never really knowing the best way to go... When he asks for, seeks and receives God's help there will a different and better result.

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8

Dear @amadeus
Where we all AGREE IN CHRIST on God's UNIVERSAL TRUTH
that is the narrow gate of righteousness.

Where I find all people even JW agree:

John 10:29-30 is true, where both statements
are made in the same context that the Father is greater than all
and the Son and the Father are one.

To Baptize all Nations in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
(this does not require any arguments about, for or against the Trinity teachings)

So if we stick to where we AGREE, that is Universally God's truth.

If we continue to worry about where we differ, that's our own business.
God can have different callings for different people to reach different audiences.
If we don't speak the same language, we have plenty of work to do
just with the language and audience we DO relate to and can focus on God's purpose in that!

 

[Wrangler]

they also reject jesus as the Messiah to this day- so that must make Jesus not the Messiah by this line of logic.

Never heard of Messianic Jews, huh?

 

[Wrangler]

@Wrangler it is equally futile to impose "Unitarian-only" positions and arguments
on people who either see God in terms of the Three being one,
or people like me who tolerate and include BOTH ways and other variations of these ways.

Just out of curiosity, how futile do you think it is to talk to me about such futility?

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Never heard of Messianic Jews, huh?

There are more than one denomination of Jewish people receiving Jesus.
Some of these do not even recognize each other but teach or practice differently!

Some people do or do not recognize
* Buddhists who receive Jesus and still teaching/practicing Buddhism but in a different spirit or context after adding Christian faith
* Muslims who become Christian and this changes how they teach/practice but they still align and identify as Muslim
* JW or others who become transformed after receiving Christ but are called to stay with their fold and teach that audience

The same process by which Messianic Jews receive Jesus as completing/fulfilling their laws,
this also happens for people using Buddhist, Constitutional, Muslim or other laws and teachings.
Since Jesus as Lord of all is God's Universal Authority of Law over all other laws and authorities.

When people received God through Christ, this transforms them and their relations,
but they may or may not convert to another denomination. They may remain
where they are and transform that denomination similar to some of the Messianic Jewish denominations.

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Just out of curiosity, how futile do you think it is to talk to me about such futility?

If you and I receive each other equally, we can learn how to communicate better across the two systems. That effort and process to reach common understanding is never futile.

If we get stuck like you do with others, where you only want to prove one system right and the other wrong,
then other people may learn from watching this futility why that combative approach doesn't get anywhere.
Both people think of God in their terms and have no reason to change that just because someone else sees God differently.

We can all learn better ways to communicate GIVEN THESE differences.

We can still agree on the Bible and uniting on the benefits of
forgiveness in facilitating corrections and healing in relations.
So more people can understand God and Jesus, even if their terms are different from ours.

In general, I advise AGAINST trying to impose the "Trinity" way of teaching or talking about God, unless you understand this will exclude JW, Unitarians, and Atheists and others who reject and discredit Christians in general because of this dogma if it is made into a "test" or "condition of faith."

Hopefully, these arguments will show that is HARMS good faith relations
to try to impose the "Trinity" way of teaching. It is both alienating, confusing
and makes Christians look bad to others, where rejection is even more justified. It generally does not help.

The way I use the "Trinity" is to INCLUDE and ALIGN with other systems of representing natural and spiritual laws. But I do not REQUIRE anyone to believe in it, or see God/the Trinity the same way. Just whatever is someone's natural way of understanding the laws of God, nature or life, is the best way I've found to communicate and reach agreement by conscience or Christ on universal truth.

 

[amadeus]

Dear @amadeus
Where we all AGREE IN CHRIST on God's UNIVERSAL TRUTH
that is the narrow gate of righteousness.

Where I find all people even JW agree:

John 10:29-30 is true, where both statements
are made in the same context that the Father is greater than all
and the Son and the Father are one.

To Baptize all Nations in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
(this does not require any arguments about, for or against the Trinity teachings)

So if we stick to where we AGREE, that is Universally God's truth.

If we continue to worry about where we differ, that's our own business.
God can have different callings for different people to reach different audiences.
If we don't speak the same language, we have plenty of work to do
just with the language and audience we DO relate to and can focus on God's purpose in that!

Yes, much work to be done, but I see more need to surrender more completely and more often to God than in putting so much emphasis on studying. The disagreements probably arise more often from the studies. I am not saying not to study, but I am saying that too many people on all sides of every issue among believers in God put too much weight on study results and on winning some kind of a debate than in simply yielding to God.

Of course, many people cannot see what I see. Should I convince them that my vision is right and that theirs is wrong? LOL More of the same conflict is there!

 

[Wrangler]

The way I use the "Trinity" is to INCLUDE and ALIGN with other systems of representing natural and spiritual laws.

The way I use the trinity is to demonstrate how it is an inherently contradictory idea that goes against all of Scripture.

 

[MyLordisGod]

Trinitarinians deny the big reveal of Jesus' ministry is that he is the long awaited Messiah, chosen by God to reconcile humanity to God and was never about revealing God incarnate. (Every Epistle makes clear that God, in his unitarian nature, is the Father alone, whose will is carried out by the Lord Jesus, anointed by God. Logic. Definition. Language Usage. When we say Jack and Jill went up the hill, it is not to be construed they are 1 being. The same when God, the Father, and Jesus went up the hill ...)

The amazing book of Acts establishes the highly controversial fact that a man was resurrected by God - and that eternal life is the inheritance of all who believe. No fair reading of this book could support any other conclusion. The trinitarian IDOLATRY of this man destroys the proof of Good News of our inheritance. For it is understandable that an all powerful God could appear to die and resurrect himself. (Translation below is CJB)

ACTS 1
v3 After his death he showed himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. (God is eternal and him being alive is a given).

v7 He answered, “You don’t need to know the dates or the times; the Father has kept these under his own authority. (The Father Alone is God and his authority being different from and higher than Jesus in this verse is clear.)

ACTS 4
v7 “By what power or in what name did you do this?” NOTE: The answer is NOT in the name of God and no claim of God incarnate. Logic. Definition. Language Usage. The name is not the name of God.
v10 It is in the name of the Messiah, Yeshua from Natzeret, whom you had executed on a stake as a criminal but whom God has raised from the dead, that this man stands before you perfectly healed. (God in his unitarian nature clearly acted upon the dead Messiah, in whose name the emissaries of the Anointed One do this, perform miracles).

v24 Begins a prayer to God ...
v27 your holy servant Yeshua, whom you made Messiah (Again, God acted on Jesus, the Messiah. In this verse, God, in his unitarian nature made Yeshua the Messiah. This is not how one would talk about God incarnate).

Thus the prayer to God ends with

v30 Stretch out your hand to heal and to do signs and miracles through the name of your holy servant Yeshua!” (God, in his unitarian nature, does signs and miracles in the name of his servant, Yeshua. Logic. Definition. Language Usage. God is not his own servant.)

Correct me if I am wrong but are there not seven Spirits of God?

 

[Wrangler]

Correct me if I am wrong but are there not seven Spirits of God?

I was thinking of that verse also. So glad you posted about it.

 

[MyLordisGod]

I was thinking of that verse also. So glad you posted about it.

They are wonderful.

 

[Emily Nghiem]

The way I use the trinity is to demonstrate how it is an inherently contradictory idea that goes against all of Scripture.

I understand you use this anti-trinity approach to address proponents. But obviously this method is not how you came to understand God and Jesus, since clearly you see these differently from the Trinity approach.

How were you first shown, introduced or invited to receive your understanding of God, Jesus and the Bible being real?

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Correct me if I am wrong but are there not seven Spirits of God?

The Muslims teach 99 names of God.
Justice is one.

What I find helpful is to figure out with each person what is their 3 part system of what God/Christ Jesus/Holy Spirit represent to them.

Any of the 99 or more names of God can end up being their key focus. So it changes the angle or approach that person or groups takes in life.

Like IDMR teachers who use the name ELOHIM for Holy Spirit. Which is plural like saying the Angels in Heaven or the Prayers of the people and Saints and Elders collectively as the Church living in the Kingdom of God.

The Buddists may see God as Wisdom or the Universe/Creation of all Life.

When I address secular and nontheist thinkers in real world or political contexts, I focus on Jesus as God's Justice and Peace as the Holy Spirit that all humanity receive when we all agree to live by Justice in our hearts.

Some people focus on God as Love, or as Nature, or as Truth.

So whatever angle they take on God, this shifts what their focus is on the other two levels of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

One of my secular humanist friends had told me his own philosophy as
Respect for Truth
Respect for Freedom
Respect for People and the Planet

In the Unitarian Universalist 7 Principles
I found these 3 align closest with the Trinity:
* free and responsible search for TRUTH and meaning
* right of CONSCIENCE (pursuit of Justice)
* goal of world community (and Peace)

I tend to favor and relate to the more real world applications of reconciling relations between people and groups to solve problems directly around us.
So I tend to focus most on
Love of Universal Truth
Love of Equal Justice or Restorative Justice
Love of Peace for all humanity

And the biggest step to all this is forgiveness so we open hearts minds and relations to receive greater Truth Justice and Peace.

When everyone unites in this agreement to live by Restorative Justice, then this is how Christ Jesus returns to manifest in full on Earth as in Heaven. So we all live in the Kingdom of God as children living in peace.

 

[Emily Nghiem]

@Wrangler
One of the more interesting and consistent Trinity patterns I found was in Confucionism.
This system had both a three part Trinity AND three guiding principles that corresponded to the three.

Jen Yi and Li
(Highest Benevolence or the collective/absolute/ultimate level,
The highest principles embodied in man,
And the outward manifestation of these)
And the three Guiding Principles
were related, something like
* to take refuge in the Highest Good
* (something about maintaining the
highest moral standards by conscience, I have to go back and find the source where I first read this)
* and to always express or practice outward virtue

So one level was about putting God first as the greatest good or benevolence for all humanity collectively

One was about following or embodying the highest standards in oneself

And the other was about expressing this in relations to others in society

So this explains the three levels of the Trinity by this system of philosophy in life

Buddhism was interesting in that it gives Two main promises or principles, Wisdom and Compassion, but not a third one.

The Three Refuges in Buddhism are
The Buddha
The Dharma
The Sangha

So if the Buddha represents awareness and receiving understanding and Wisdom, where the Dharma is the spiritual laws and teachings on Wisdom and Compassion, then the Sangha is about practicing this in real world relations and society.

So where is the third value that joins Wisdom and Compassion? Is it Communication or Community relations or outreach?

Wisdom corresponds with loving God with all our heart MIND and soul
Compassion corresponds with loving as Jesus does with God's love for all creation.
What is the term for loving our neighbors as ourselves by the Holy Spirit?
Making peace in our relations and community? Serving others?

I thought there needed to be a third to complete the pattern or set.