That's really a personal question, outside the scope of this thread. But it hit me when I was a child hearing a priest talk about the 1C.
Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About - #5, Book of Acts
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That's really a personal question, outside the scope of this thread. But it hit me when I was a child hearing a priest talk about the 1C.
It is not right to equate all sets of 3 with the illogical, inherently contradictory, non-Scriptural doctrine of the trinity.
I've always embraced a mind-body-spirit approach to life but I also have 17 grandkids. So there is that. Meaning, if you want to make connections, the human mind is VERY adapt at connecting things that are not there. See ink blots.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Now you are showing one verse to support your position!
So tell me then , explain why all the verses I have posted about jesus being god do not mean He is god and defend them form Scripture.
I fully agree teh Father is jesus god- but that does not negate that Jesus by nature is divine or God. I am awaiting your proof that the Scriptures do not mean what they clearly say.
1. I follow you when you said your biggest connection was putting God first.
Either putting no other gods before God.
Or loving God with all our heart mind and soul.
From what I gather and read in your posts you focus on God's truth and will as being supreme, above all else.
2. I do not yet follow what you mean by having 17 grandkids and this being in conflict with body/mind/spirit.
Each person including each kid and grandkid has mind/body/spirit.
We seek to be in harmony between mind body and spirit with each other, as well as connecting in relationship and collectively with other people of mind body and spirit.
Yes the whole challenge we face IS people interjecting personal desires, biases, interests and needs, and learning to love, forgive and understand each other as God does through Christ and embodying that live of God through Jesus in ourselves, relations with others, and collectively in society and humanity.
The Kingdom of God is both within us and among us.
How is this not inclusive of diversity of humanity?
That's all that is needed - one explicit teaching that proves in Scripture only the Father is God, period.
I don't know if you realize this or not but the absence of one single explicit teaching is precisely why trinitarians MUST rely on dozens of versus, hoping something sticks. It cannot hold a candle to 1 Cor 8:6. For us, there is one God, the Father. It says all that needs to be said on the subject.
I don't know why you have to make this either or.
In some contexts God is Love.
In some instances God manifests to people as Truth or as Wisdom.
God as Life or Nature.
God as Creator or Creation, some people understand God to mean the Universe.
God as Heavenly Father makes sense to some but not others.
Is it really honoring God to argue whether God is Love or God is Wisdom?
Why can't the same God be manifested in all these ways without contradiction?
One church I went to understood and explained how the SAME person can be a Father, a Son and a Husband.
One person not three.
I have seen this explained so many differents ways, and some people get some of those ways, some get ALL of them, and some get NONE.
That just means we perceive and process differently. That doesn't mean we don't respect God or are trying to teach it wrong.
People cannot help if our brains, perception or biases take a different approach than someone else.
I trust God has His ways and purposes.
If we have differences, God has reasons for those.
Vey well stated. Some people get entrenched in trying to prove others like yourself and many others on this site wrong. You use facts and scripture in a gentle Christlike manner to explain your thoughts and beliefs.
I happen to agree with your views on the Deity of Christ, and many others here agree with you as well. Blessings to you Emily, I appreciate kind attitude you have in explaining yourself!
I don't argue in favor of a Trinity for I cannot embrace that, but I do appreciate much of what you said which is supported by Paul's words written here:
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12
Too many people speak as if their vision were already "face to face" when if they were honest they would admit with Paul that it is still "through a glass darkly". How well must a person "see" the face of God in order to love Him and to serve Him? Was David a devil or was he the apple of God's eye, and a man after God's own heart?
"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Psalm 27:7
I suppose that David, in the OT, was seeking the face of the LORD all of his natural life. When is it that a person has come to a place where he should stop seeking?
Thank you @amadeus
You remind me of when I realized how flawed and divided our Founding Fathers were, completely conflicted and even contradicted themselves and each other, yet leaders came together, prayed to God, and still produced agreed words and wisdom that we use to teach universal principles.
When I realized they couldn't agree either, but denounced each other as the enemy, and had the same arguments we see today, it both gave me despair there was not some magic in them that we needed to rely on.
Just like them we only have the grace of God to pull us together. We will contradict ourselves, each other, and the principles we claim to espouse. There are no magic or mystically gifted humans with more vision than anyone else, we all have our gifts that God can use that are necessary for the whole to work. So in Christ, God makes us equal, equally flawed and equally gifted. It takes all of us, and no one person, save Jesus Christ alone, is going to be unequally above the rest. Lest we would constantly fight to get things absolutely perfect by that one person's authority. That one authority has to be universal to all of us, so not just one person dominates the rest.
What you cited from the Bible really says to me how flawed we each can be, even the least or the greatest among us, and it is God's grace and wisdom that is shining through. It isn't coming from us.
God's Kingdom is established among us. When we connect in Christ. Thank you for sharing what you see in Scripture.
This really helps clarify the struggle and process. And your explanation confirms the idea that neither the people or process is perfect. It makes God's truth stand out even more, and makes it that much more appreciated and humbling, knowing we are flawed vessels. And God can still use us to share the message!
Thank you and please keep up the wonderful prayers, presence and affirmative support you bring. May all the more people receive you, so in doing so receive Jesus, and in receiving the Son receive God the Father who sent Jesus for this purpose!
Thank you @BobVance
I find that certain people like @Wrangler are called to be Judges. That is their job God gives them to focus on. Like the Principal of the school who checks on classrooms, and doesn't care why students or teachers are off schedule or not following the rules or curricula. It is the teachers' job to reach the students and communicate in ways thar make sense. But the Principal only guards if the school is orderly and follows protocols.
Some people have the job of only voting yes or no, either completely consistent or flunk.
No amount of justifying or explaining the context or situation is going to pass when the Principal pops in and just checks on what is going on and what it looks like.
The strictest most uniform rules, in order to streamline the process and make sure everyone is on the same page.
This is good for when you already have your act together and can pass final inspection.
But the black and white, yes or no, approach can be disastrous when you are dealing with accommodating students of different learning styles, rates and process or growth, who aren't at a place they can adjust and meet uniform agreed standards. The yes or no approach would mean a higher dropout rate, and more people with no chance of ever getting to the level of juggling how they need to learn and understand while appeasing the Principal who needs to see their answers match the Book to the Letter.
The role of the Judge is best for helping keep other Judges in line and on the same page. But arguing with Teachers who have their reasons for reaching different audiences and learning styles is wasting the Time and Talents of the Judges.
If all their job is to check the list, yes or no, you are either meeting universal uniform standards, or you are varying from the checklist and you flunk. There is no sense in arguing with the Judge. They will not change their mind.
That role is different.
We can support such people to apply their calling in the best way and proper purpose God uses them for.
When Jesus argued with Pharisees in the Temple, that involved rebukes by the Letter of the Law to keep them in line by holding them to account to their own words.
But when Jesus was teaching fishers and farmers who were illiterate in the Bible, then parables based on their experiences were used to teach them about the Kingdom of God.
Principals who don't want teachers straying from the established textbook may not have time for lengthy explanations of what does any of this have to do with the Bible. Especially if the context sounds completely contradictory.
I think if we can pinpoint which roles are used for which purposes, we can make more sense of why people talk and share in different ways. Some people cannot handle the diversity of approaches I have found ways to reconcile and work with. They fear such people are "teaching wrong and misleading people off track."
We do have to check each other and keep each other in line.
I think it will get easier as we go.
But right now, not all students are like the Pharisees in the Temple who Jesus can hold to Scriptures.
The Teachers need to align and work with Principals acting as Judges so we don't divide among ourselves.
But we do not need to explain to Judges all the work and ways "behind the scenes" it takes to communicate with others. Maybe that isn't their job. They just want to remind Teachers the end goal is to be perfectly united, on very clear standards.
If we all stick to our jobs, we can get the work done. The Judges may seem unfair, but they are called to police for a reason. There cannot be chaos or confusion in the schools by introducing things not on the Books.
So Teachers face the same challenges as Jesus did, being able to stick to Scriptures when communicating with Pharisees and Judges, while also recognizing when students need different parables, explanations or exercises to grasp the same concepts.
We don't need to argue or judge people just because our roles are different, and may change depending what audience or purpose God is using us for.
We need to support each other as Christians to do our jobs and serve the purpose God calls us to do. No matter what that may look like.
How can we help each other to be more effective and reach the right audience who needs that approach?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well there is one verse that proves explicitly that Jesus is God!
John 1:1
King James Version
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
We rely on dozens of verses because we gather evidence from through out scripture as should be required by those who handle the word of God correctly! Also as there are so many verses that prove Jesus is equally God in nature as His Father is clear.
So I still await for you to explain for all here, why John 1:1 does not mean what is written.
I am guessing the distinction @Wrangler would make is the Word of God in Heaven is still purely and fully divine and equal with God.
But when the Word is incarnated in Man as Jesus, Jesus is both God and Man.
God is not both God and Man.
So Jesus is still not just God
but both God and Man
While God is God only.
My best guess....
A word is not a being. It is not the translation but John 20:31 that informs you that everything John wrote was to prove Jesus is the Messiah, which means NONE of what he wrote can be used, according to St John himself, for anything else - including the man-is-god thesis.
John 20:31
The Voice
31 These accounts are recorded so that you, too, might believe that Jesus is the Anointed, the Liberating King, the Son of God, because believing grants you the life He came to share.
You got it! Only caveat is that I am not a Judge but one gifted with discernment. The 1st separation is those who can 'meet standards WITHOUT accommodation' as you say.
The whole 'accommodating' students while simultaneously advocating for EQUALITY is a shocking contradiction. One of the most important qualities of a successful student is the capacity to make adjustment themselves to learn the material - to demonstrate proficiency WITHOUT 'accommodation.' Why? Because that is the real world. That is life - and life is not fair.
Just today a coworker who used to teach told me she was forced to change her curriculum because one student - in no child left behind program given a PEP (Personal Education Program) - could not handle it. I'm totally in favor of failing that one student and allowing the rest of the class to get the most out of their education!
If you are in the 2nd group, so be it. There should be no shame in not making the grade.
Regarding the notion of 'either completely consistent or flunk;' let me give you an example of how it parsed the truth from a Leftist liar. 2 decades ago there was this Leftist liar whose angle of false alliance building was to repeatedly claim how much of Conservative ideas he respects and agrees with. So, I invoked the 'either completely consistent or flunk' standard. I challenged him to deny that if we list the top 20 issues of the day, granted he agrees with the Conservative position 49% for each one, he'd vote 100% down the line for the Leftist position on all the issues. He admitted that was true.
Game. Set. Match.
Nearly every post reveals your IDOL of supposing all sides actually agree on some level. If only we would "see" it and understand how the other side is using different words to mean the same thing - when that is not reality at all. At long last you've come to realize that I tend to be a binary thinker. Now you also know I have no intention or desire of dealing with accommodating students.
Jesus is not God. 'For us, there is one God, the Father.' 1 Corinthians 8:6
I've been wanting to post the final verse from the Book of Acts to close this thread. It's amazing how Saint Luke's work is so strongly anti-trinitarian, he could not help make a parting shot with his last words about St Paul. openly and without hindrance proclaiming the Kingdom of God and teaching about the Lord Yeshua the Messiah. Acts 28:31 (CJB) Again, informing us of the truth of Scripture
If these 2 things were about the same being, it would be worded differently; such as, 'proclaiming God became incarnated as his own Messiah, his own suffering servant, to bring his Kingdom to us on Earth.' The Apostles and the people at the time of their writing knew God's Anointed was not God, which explains why they consistently wrote about them as being 2 different beings, with a hierarchy and superiority-inferiority structure. This also explains why God is listed first, and then his Anointed.
Anytime the Bible uses the term "Father" trinitarians seek to use it as one aspect of the Godhead to infer the existence of others. At the same time, whenever the term "God" is used, one should consider it "in his unitarian nature" to better see the parsing of God with our brother, lord and savior, the man Jesus. That God chose, or adopted, this brother of ours cannot be denied by trinitarians. All they can do is attempt to divert our attention from the plain message of the Book of Acts, either by invoking duality or pasting verses they prefer. The Lord Yeshua, the Messiah, is a man and this Good News is explicitly and repeatedly emphasized.
For he [God, in his unitarian nature] has set a Day when he will judge the inhabited world, and do it justly, by means of a man whom he has designated. And he has given public proof of it by resurrecting this man from the dead.”
Acts 17:31
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If these 2 things were about the same being, it would be worded differently; such as, 'proclaiming God became incarnated as his own Messiah, his own suffering servant, to bring his Kingdom to us on Earth.' The Apostles and the people at the time of their writing knew God's Anointed was not God, which explains why they consistently wrote about them as being 2 different beings, with a hierarchy and superiority-inferiority structure. This also explains why God is listed first, and then his Anointed.
Anytime the Bible uses the term "Father" trinitarians seek to use it as one aspect of the Godhead to infer the existence of others. At the same time, whenever the term "God" is used, one should consider it "in his unitarian nature" to better see the parsing of God with our brother, lord and savior, the man Jesus. That God chose, or adopted, this brother of ours cannot be denied by trinitarians. All they can do is attempt to divert our attention from the plain message of the Book of Acts, either by invoking duality or pasting verses they prefer. The Lord Yeshua, the Messiah, is a man and this Good News is explicitly and repeatedly emphasized.
For he [God, in his unitarian nature] has set a Day when he will judge the inhabited world, and do it justly, by means of a man whom he has designated. And he has given public proof of it by resurrecting this man from the dead.”
Acts 17:31
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well wrangler is intelligent enough to write that distinction down if that is what he is trying to say, but it isn't. Jesus is fully god and fully man. when He was on earth He was called equal with God and that He was God in human flesh.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well you show your ignorance for John himself wrote that Jesus was equal to God but according to you that doesn't matter.
Still waiting for you to explain what John 1:1 means according to your reasoning.
In another thread, you took a deep dive with someone who confused what God did with who God did it through. This model is profound. Throughout Scripture we see God doing things through others. That is the divine model.
Just because angels and prophets do things at the command of God, or in his name, that does not make them God. Acts 17:31 makes this point explicit. The Good News of Adoptionism is our hope in a redeemed and resurrected life was proved to be realized in the man who submitted himself fully to God's will. The Good News is not that Jesus is God but God proved his plan for us when he raised this man from the dead. That too is our inheritance, the inheritance of those who put their trust in the Savior who paved the way, showed us the way, is the way.
32 “As for us, we are bringing you the Good News that what God promised to the fathers, 33 he has fulfilled for us the children in raising up Yeshua, as indeed it is written in the second Psalm,
Just because angels and prophets do things at the command of God, or in his name, that does not make them God. Acts 17:31 makes this point explicit. The Good News of Adoptionism is our hope in a redeemed and resurrected life was proved to be realized in the man who submitted himself fully to God's will. The Good News is not that Jesus is God but God proved his plan for us when he raised this man from the dead. That too is our inheritance, the inheritance of those who put their trust in the Savior who paved the way, showed us the way, is the way.
32 “As for us, we are bringing you the Good News that what God promised to the fathers, 33 he has fulfilled for us the children in raising up Yeshua, as indeed it is written in the second Psalm,
‘You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.’
Acts 13: 32-33 (CJB)today I have become your Father.’
Untrue. Not being equal to God is THE EXACT OPPOSITE of being equal to God.
the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28
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