Secure Eternal Salvation

[post]

And if we too have said like Peter, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, ‘You are Peter,’ etc. For a rock is every disciple of Christ… But if you suppose that upon that one Peter only the whole church is built by God, what would you say about John the son of thunder or each one of the Apostles? Shall we otherwise dare to say, that against Peter in particular the gates of Hades shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? Does not the saying previously made, The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it, hold in regard to all and in the case of each of them? And also the saying, Upon this rock I will build My church?

- Origen ((from Commentary on Matthew, book 12))​

interesting
God is not a respecter of persons
and what a good point - Peter himself says to all believers, 'ye are living stones' - a kingdom of priests, all - being built up into a spiritual house, with Christ The Foundation and likewise the Cornerstone, the First and the Last, the Author and Finisher

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And if we too have said like Peter, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, ‘You are Peter,’ etc. For a rock is every disciple of Christ… But if you suppose that upon that one Peter only the whole church is built by God, what would you say about John the son of thunder or each one of the Apostles? Shall we otherwise dare to say, that against Peter in particular the gates of Hades shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? Does not the saying previously made, The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it, hold in regard to all and in the case of each of them? And also the saying, Upon this rock I will build My church?

- Origen ((from Commentary on Matthew, book 12))​

interesting
God is not a respecter of persons
and what a good point - Peter himself says to all believers, 'ye are living stones' - a kingdom of priests, all - being built up into a spiritual house, with Christ The Foundation and likewise the Cornerstone, the First and the Last, the Author and Finisher

Interestingly enough.

A gate is a defensive weapon, not an offensive. A gate or hell is defending or trying to prevent the church from doing its job, which is to go into the world and make disciples of all nations. The world is satans domain, and the gates of hell is what tries to keep us out.

I am amazed that people use this is a thing that tries to attack the church to overthrow it. Never seen an army use a gate as any offensive weapon to overthrow someone.

What we see is armies trying to tear down a gate of a fortified city so they can enter that city and take it over.

 

[post]

Interestingly enough.

A gate is a defensive weapon, not an offensive. A gate or hell is defending or trying to prevent the church from doing its job, which is to go into the world and make disciples of all nations. The world is satans domain, and the gates of hell is what tries to keep us out.

I am amazed that people use this is a thing that tries to attack the church to overthrow it. Never seen an army use a gate as any offensive weapon to overthrow someone.

What we see is armies trying to tear down a gate of a fortified city so they can enter that city and take it over.

we also see Samson tearing the gates of Gaza off the city walls, carrying them for miles, and throwing them off a cliff

praise God!!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

we also see Samson tearing the gates of Gaza off the city walls, carrying them for miles, and throwing them off a cliff

praise God!!

Lol. True!! If anyone could use a gate as an offensive weapon I guess Sampson could

Yet he chose to throw them off a cliff!!

Thats what God does when the church goes out to rescue people out from the chains of Hell. And brings them into Gods family!

 

[post]

Lol. True!! If anyone could use a gate as an offensive weapon I guess Sampson could

Yet he chose to throw them off a cliff!!

Thats what God does when the church goes out to rescue people out from the chains of Hell. And brings them into Gods family!

as far as the east is from the west!

†

 

[Illuminator]

A Protestant Historian Discovers the Catholic Church

 

[Eternally Grateful]

A Protestant Historian Discovers the Catholic Church

This ain’t about catholic vs protestant. Most Protestants really are not unlike catholics. (If I were a works based protestant, I would easily convert to Catholicism. They have th most ways to salvation and the best hope)

This is about the gospel of Christ and how one enters heaven, or better yet. Is granted access to heaven.

 

[BreadOfLife]

not sure why you are trying to tell me the context of chapter 2 is chapter 5,
but more concerning is why you chose to omit v.17 -- "if anyone is in Christ"

there's your context. all who are in Christ.

there are no 'super-apostles' ((2 Corinthians 11:5)) - we regard no one anymore after the flesh ((2 Corinthians 5:16))

i haven't kept up with the entire thread, btw -- so, honest question, do you always cherry-pick and leave out the damning evidence immediately adjacent to your selected-for-eisegesis-passages, that clearly overturn your positions?
or is this an isolated incidence?

an honest answer will help me better serve you in the future, to bring you to a knowledge of the truth.

thanks

Apparently, you don't understant the the bible was NOT written in chapter anf Verse.
Allow me to educate you agaoin . . .

Each Book of the Eible was written as a long letter. Chapter and Verse were added in the Middle Ages by the Catholic Church - the custodian of Holy Deposit of Faith (2 Tim. 1:14). THIS is why we can find the context of a verse from Chapter 2 down in Chapter 5 - get it?

As to your editing a snippet of 2 Cor. 5:17 in a weak attempt to show that the power to forgive sins or hold them boud is given to "anyone is in Christ" - that's NOT what it is saying. Don't forget - when you read the ENTIRE passage of verses, you see that Pail is imploring the Corinthians on behalf of the REST of the clergy to be reconciled to God. therefore, the "WE" and the "US" pertaoins to THEM - not the general population.

And YOU accuse ME of cherry-picking . . .

NOT all of us in Christ have the same mission.
We all have different roles in tthe Body - and SOME of those rols are the leaders . . .

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Cor. 12:2
Some people God has designated in the church to be, FIRST, apostles; SECOND, prophets; THIRD, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.

 

[BreadOfLife]

but getting back to this, dear child --

there is an immediate context that seems to escape you:

Now whom you forgive anything, I also
(2 Corinthians 2:10a)​

Paul forgives anything 'you' forgive -- that you being the general parishioner in Corinth.
why? because, Christ. because Matthew 18:18 -- which you very clearly falsely ascribe only to Peter, by manner of man-worship, as you have been taught, by men who will you to worship them.

whatsoever you ((contextually all His disciples)) loose shall have already been loosed in heaven.
in the person of Christ.​

Paul forgives anyone that the least person in the congregation of Corinth forgives ((who weirdly have no allegiance whatsoever to Rome nor to Peter, but to Christ, and to Paul inasmuch as Paul, the least of the disciples, is the spiritual father, having founded them and taught them the truth of the gospel - Paul who himself tells them not to give obeisance to any man, but only to God))
Paul says, point blank, anyone whom the Corinthian believers forgive, Paul also forgives, in & through the person of Christ.
exactly like the Spirit dwells in each of them, working the will of God through each of them, exactly as though each one of them is equal part priests in the kingdom of God.

the scripture turns out to be wildly incompatible with papism, goddess-worship and rituals-for-salvation. the scripture is eerily 100% Christ-focused. what kind of man would disallow the commoner from being able to read and understand these scriptures?

this is an unassailable, salient fact in the verse you've brought up, which cannot be brushed aside by any amount of bold, oversized, colorful font - and no amount of your puffing and personal attacks against my character can diminish this truth.

let's continue.

WOW.
That you cannot understand this is mind-boggling . . .

Let's say that I stole some money from you.
Now, the fact that YOU forgive me does NOT mean that I repented of this sin.

Jesus gave His Disciples the power to forgive sins or to hold them bound (John 20:21-23, Matt. 16:19-19, Matt. 18:15-18). Just because YOU have forgiven me does NOT mean that I am forgiven of this sin - because I have ALSO sinned against God. This requires MY repentance amd reconciliation - not YOUR forgiveness.

THAT is what Paul is talking about in 2 Cor. 2:10.

 

[BreadOfLife]

His name is Jesus.
He is the only foundation; no other foundation can be laid.
He is the only mediator between God and man, having broken down the wall of separation, so that all who are in Him can enter the holy place boldly.
He calls His sheep by name, and He will not lose even one. if they are lost, He finds them, and carries them back on His shoulder, rejoicing. He is good, faithful, and mighty to save, even to the uttermost - not by works; neither by the will, desire nor the effort of man, but by God who does as He pleases, irrespective of person.

do you need me to go look up the scripture that substantiates all those things, or are you sufficiently well-versed?

Like I pointed out before -
Since you adhere to man-made docteins loike Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, OSAS, etc. - you follow the men from the 16th century. who invented them

interesting.
so there are competing human traditions, you say?
which may be divided more or less geographically?

and to which human tradition are you devoted?

Doctrinally - the Eartern and Western Rites are in full communion with each other.
Celibacy is a matter of dicipline - not doctrine.

Too bad that cannot be dsaid of the tens of thousands of perpetually-splinteroing Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines based on the interpretational whims of different men - yet ALL claim to have been "led" to this congfusion by the Holy Spirit.

What a mess . . .

 

[Illuminator]

1751

how can you say you love your brother if you don't tell him when he's wrong?

How can you claim Tertullian, Ignatius and Justin Martyr as your "brothers" when you rail against what they wrote, ??? as indicated in post #1751. You are either a phony or just plain ignorant. Your question is a non -sequitur and a derailer to the subject at hand, because you got caught in a lie and are trying to change the topic, typical anti-Catholic methodology.

Amen bro

The church is built on Christ. The cornerstone. Not peter. One of the foundation stones.

1 Cor. 3:11 – Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.
The Biblical Church - Scripture Catholic

Your anti-Peter animus defies Scripture and all of Christian history. Protestantism has no unity, it's an earthly body with no earthly head.
THE PRIMACY OF PETER - Scripture Catholic

 

[post]

Apparently, you don't understant the the bible was NOT written in chapter anf Verse.
Allow me to educate you agaoin . . .

Each Book of the Eible was written as a long letter. Chapter and Verse were added in the Middle Ages by the Catholic Church - the custodian of Holy Deposit of Faith (2 Tim. 1:14). THIS is why we can find the context of a verse from Chapter 2 down in Chapter 5 - get it?

As to your editing a snippet of 2 Cor. 5:17 in a weak attempt to show that the power to forgive sins or hold them boud is given to "anyone is in Christ" - that's NOT what it is saying. Don't forget - when you read the ENTIRE passage of verses, you see that Pail is imploring the Corinthians on behalf of the REST of the clergy to be reconciled to God. therefore, the "WE" and the "US" pertaoins to THEM - not the general population.

And YOU accuse ME of cherry-picking . . .

NOT all of us in Christ have the same mission.
We all have different roles in tthe Body - and SOME of those rols are the leaders . . .

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Cor. 12:2
Some people God has designated in the church to be, FIRST, apostles; SECOND, prophets; THIRD, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.

now the context of 2 Corinthians 2 is 1 Thessalonians 5?

weird.

 

[post]

Your anti-Peter animus

hang on just a minute there kiddo.

this isn't 'anti-Peter'

this is reality. Peter made all kinds of mistakes. they're recorded in scripture for a reason.
Peter was not 'chief over all the apostles' -- heck i can make the case that Judas was their leader, apart from Christ. put John 12 & Matthew 26 together, and find out what it means that Judas received the sop in John 13 - ask if it was the only time he did so.

it has been openly and clearly demonstrated to you that Peter was afraid of James and Peter was subject to Paul ((do you even confess Paul as an apostle, as scripture attests?)) when Peter was wrong.
no other apostle was ever called "Satan" by Christ, but Peter.

you and your cult claim to have authority over anyone who is in Christ, and the primary argument you give for that is 'because Peter'

but Augustine, your own elder, is correct in the matter of "THE ROCK"
((see previous citations))

so pointing out the things that make Peter lower than God isn't 'animus' it's simple fact, and it's not being done because anyone here hates Peter. literally no one here hates Peter, but out of righteous fear of the LORD and genuine interest in converting your soul unto salvation. we are for you. it's being pointed out because your case for holding every non-papist in subjugation to yourself rests on Peter being the sole foundation & purveyor of the gospel, which is heresy, 100% contrary to 1 Corinthians 3:11


btw what's the going rate for an indulgence these days?
i want a coffee; i have silver.

 

[post]

1751How can you claim Tertullian, Ignatius and Justin Martyr as your "brothers" when you rail against what they wrote, ??? as indicated in post #1751. You are either a phony or just plain ignorant. Your question is a non -sequitur and a derailer to the subject at hand, because you got caught in a lie and are trying to change the topic, typical anti-Catholic methodology.

1 Cor. 3:11 – Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.
The Biblical Church - Scripture Catholic

Your anti-Peter animus defies Scripture and all of Christian history. Protestantism has no unity, it's an earthly body with no earthly head.
THE PRIMACY OF PETER - Scripture Catholic

for the rest: not worth responding to ((previously debunked in earlier posts)), but writing so you don't think i haven't read it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

now the context of 2 Corinthians 2 is 1 Thessalonians 5?

weird.

I mentioned 1 Thess. 5:12, 1 Tim. 5:17 and 1 Cor. 12:2 to illustrate that what the Bible shows us:
Tat Christ's Church indeed has a hierarchy.

Although, I'm NOT surprised that the context was conpletely lost on you . . .

 

[Illuminator]

now the context of 2 Corinthians 2 is 1 Thessalonians 5?

weird.

Another stupid evasion.

 

[BreadOfLife]

interesting
God is not a respecter of persons
and what a good point - Peter himself says to all believers, 'ye are living stones' - a kingdom of priests, all - being built up into a spiritual house, with Christ The Foundation and likewise the Cornerstone, the First and the Last, the Author and Finisher

Time for another Bible Lesson . . .

1 Pet. 2:6
... you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

In the Old Testament, there were three levels of Priests:
- The High Priest
- The Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood
- The rest of the people were a general priesthood of believers.

In the New Testament, there are also three levels of Priests:
- Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25)
- The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15)
- The general priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

Remember:
EVERY NT fulfillment is always more glorious and perfect than its OT Type.
There is NO exception to this rule . . .

 

[post]

I mentioned 1 Thess. 5:12, 1 Tim. 5:17 and 1 Cor. 12:2 to illustrate that what the Bible shows us:
Tat Christ's Church indeed has a hierarchy.

Although, I'm NOT surprised that the context was conpletely lost on you . . .

previously discussed.
Christ is the head of His church ((Colossians 1:18))

 

[post]

Another stupid evasion.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,
after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
(Colossians 2:8)

​

do you pray to people?

 

[post]

In the New Testament, there are also three levels of Priests:
- Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25)
- The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15)
- The general priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

James mentions 'elders' not priests.
however:

pray one for another
(James 5:16)​

using your private definition, all are ministerial priests, with Christ our High Priest