Secure Eternal Salvation

[theefaith]

Matt 23:9
Call no man Father?

Is this an absolute requirement?
Or is Our Savior condemning pride and spiritual pride of the Pharisees?

God calls men father!

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jesus calls men father!

Jn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Mary calls men father!

Lk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Peter calls men father!

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

Acts 3:22 Moses said unto the fathers…

The stephen calls men father!

Acts 7 Stephen quotes the fathers over and over!

The Bible calls men father!

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.


Then there is spiritual fathers!

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Peter, Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

peter is first Matt 10:2

peter to feed the sheep (apostles) and the lambs (the people) Jn 21:17

I feel so bad for you.

The sheep was Israel. if anything

Paul went to feed the people also.l with no authority of Peter. and he had more people to feed.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus gave these keys to Peter

yep and every one who has the gospel.

The pope does not open the door to let people into the kingdom. Thats nonsense

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Love required deut. 6:5, 1 cor 13:2, gal 5:6

obedence Heb 13:7, Heb 13:17

patience 1 Tim 6:11, Heb 6:12

Those are works

You want to boast of those works feel free.

They have nothing to do with your salvation.

not of works lest anyone should boast.

You should take heed the verses I gave you that make it clear works cancels grace.

 

[Marymog]

paul also rebuked peter. Which proved peter had no real authority over the church as a whole

You ignored the truth.

When the Jewish Christians come from Antioch Peter withdraws from table fellowship with the Gentiles and others present follow him in that action. Paul rebukes Peter for that and calls him to task in basically saying you’re not practicing what you’re preaching.

Sooooo that is NOT evidence that Peter had no real authority over the church as a whole OR that Paul had authority over him. It just shows that Peter was a hypocrite.

Keeping it real....Mary

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You ignored the truth.

I ignored YOUR TRUTH

When the Jewish Christians come from Antioch Peter withdraws from table fellowship with the Gentiles and others present follow him in that action. Paul rebukes Peter for that and calls him to task in basically saying you’re not practicing what you’re preaching.

Sooooo that is NOT evidence that Peter had no real authority over the church as a whole OR that Paul had authority over him. It just shows that Peter was a hypocrite.

Keeping it real....Mary

Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?

1. Peter and a crowd he was in was compelling Gentiles to live as jews
2. Paul rebuked peter and them all for not being straightforward about the truth of the gospel.

It was a doctrinal issue

Nice try, But like I said, I reject your truth. Because there is no truth in in when it comes to this discussion.

 

[Marymog]

Jesu sis the chief cornerstone. A cornerstone was the largest stone in the building. it is also the stone in which the whole foundation is laid on.

Peter, the smaller stone, was just one of the smaller stone.

You people love to build doctrines on 1 verse. Its like your fathers looked for one verse to support their truth and stood by it.

Scripture is more than one verse.

You crack me up EG. You say The Church uses 1 verse to build doctrine and that "Scripture is more than one verse" and YOU then use one vs to build your doctrine. But you are going to stand behind that truth with that one vs...Aren't you?

Yup, Jesus is the chief cornerstone.

Yup, Peter is one of the stones for the foundation of The Church. The other Apostles are part of the foundation also. The men that the Apostles taught build on that foundation. Those men then taught other men and they build on top of that etc etc.

What you "accidently" left off from the CONTEXT of that conversation with Peter and Jesus is that Jesus ALSO gave Peter (and ONLY Peter) the keys to the kingdom of heaven. He also individually told Peter that he has the power to bind and loosen.

Now, have your Protestant men teach you where in Scripture you can find the significance of the keys and the power of binding and loosening. Or, if you are self taught, it's bible study time sister.

 

[Marymog]

I ignored YOUR TRUTH

Once again....you crack me up. Soooooo when YOU say something it is THE TRUTH but when I say something it is MY TRUTH?????????? Oh goodness....

 

[Marymog]

I ignored YOUR TRUTH


Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?

1. Peter and a crowd he was in was compelling Gentiles to live as jews
2. Paul rebuked peter and them all for not being straightforward about the truth of the gospel.

It was a doctrinal issue

Nice try, But like I said, I reject your truth. Because there is no truth in in when it comes to this discussion.

Nice try EG. Just because someone is being a hypocrite, in this case Peter is, that does not take away their authority. As YOU stated before we don't just look for one verse to support the truth and stand by it. Scripture is more than one verse. Are you going to stick to your own criteria?

Or is it because if we apply your own criteria in this case it destroys YOUR TRUTH and that is why you don't want to use it?

 

[Taken]

you crack me up. Soooooo ?????????? Oh goodness....

 

[theefaith]

lol

he was rebuked because he sinned.

that's a moral issue

Because peter had a faith issue, he sinned,

that's a faith issue

come on man....

Discipline

 

[Marymog]

previously discussed.

Now this name of Peter was given him by the Lord, and that in a figure, that he should signify the Church. For seeing that Christ is the rock, Peter is the Christian people. For the rock is the original name. Therefore Peter is so called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. ‘Therefore,’ he saith, ‘Thou art Peter; and upon this Rock’ which thou hast confessed, upon this Rock which thou hast acknowledged, saying, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, will I build My Church;’ that is upon Myself, the Son of the living God, ‘will I build My Church.’ I will build thee upon Myself, not Myself upon thee. For men who wished to be built upon men, said, ‘I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas,’ who is Peter. But others who did not wish to be built upon Peter, but upon the Rock, said, ‘But I am of Christ.’ And when the Apostle Paul ascertained that he was chosen, and Christ despised, he said, ‘Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?’ And, as not in the name of Paul, so neither in the name of Peter; but in the name of Christ: that Peter might be built upon the Rock, not the Rock upon Peter.

- Augustine ((from On Matthew, sections 1-4))​

I love Augustine. You like Augustine also? The quote you provided only says what The Church teaches and what EG and I have already agreed to: Peter is built upon THE rock (Christ). Sooooo not sure why you quoted that. Would you quote Augustine when he CLEARLY destroys what you and @Eternally Grateful have been taught by your Protestant men? Will you still like him then?​

AUGUSTINE
"Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear "I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven"' (Sermons 295:2 [a.d. 411]).

AUGUSTINE
"Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter?" (Commentary on John 56:1 [a.d. 416]).

Augustine
“If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.’ Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement. … In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found” (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).

BUT WAIT>>>BUT WAIT....there is MORE. Lets go FURTHER back in time and see what The Church taught about Peter BEFORE Augustine:

Tertullian
“Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).

“[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys” (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

The Letter of Clement to James
“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter” (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).


Origen
“Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’ [Matt. 14:31]” (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage
“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. . . . If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

“There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering” (Letters 43[40]:5 [A.D. 253]).

“There [John 6:68–69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ” (ibid., 66[69]:8).

Ephraim the Syrian
“[Jesus said:] ‘Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples’” (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).

Optatus
“You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all” (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

Ambrose of Milan
“[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . . ’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?” (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

“It is to Peter that he says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18]. Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal” (Commentary on Twelve Psalms of David 40:30 [A.D. 389]).


Jerome
“‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division” (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]).

I am NOT getting tired of saying this to you post but do you ever get tired of being wrong?

Keeping it real with Christian history....Mary

 

[theefaith]

lol

So you make a who doctrine on one verse. Ignoring everything Jesus said in john, that did not mention baptism.

Anyway, I agree. Baptism is required. Holy Spirit Baptism, which is an act of Gos at the moment of faith

not water baptism. which is a work of righteousness.

not of works lest anyone should boast.

stop boasting of your baptism and give God the credit for him personally baptizing you into him, is my recommendation.

christian sacrament of baptism washes sin in the blood of the lamb

 

[Marymog]

did you catch the part where

1. Peter is one of many giving their opinions and evidences (("after much discussion" v.7))
2. all became silent hearing Paul & Barnabas also give testimony ((v.12))
3. then James, leading the entire assembly, cites Peter's comments and tests it against scripture ((v.15))
4. and finally James, not Peter, gives judgement & recommends the action that the entire council take ((vv. 19-21))

OMG....I missed those parts. Now I see it. Peter didn't have any authority since other church elders gave their opinions. I missed that clear evidence.

And how everyone, out of respect, became silent when listening to Paul and Barnabas giving testimony about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. That is CLEAR evidence that Peter had NO authority.

CLEARLY Peter has no authority when his "comments" AGREES with the written words of the prophets on "how God first looked favorably on the Gentiles, to take from among them a people for his name." And then James USES PETER'S "comments" to make his decision. I missed that part...silly me.

do you ever get tired of being wrong post?

 

[Taken]

@Eternally Grateful ~

The Keys to Bind and Loose;
Simply means
Authority of what IS. Bind
Authority of what IS NOT. Loose

And what IS; IS what God told Simon Peter.
And what IS NOT; IS other christ’s.

Jesus was preparing ALL the disciples to go out and Teach to men WHAT Jesus was building His Church ON:

“ Jesus IS the Christ, the Son of the Living God”.

 

[Taken]

AUGUSTINE
Tertullian
Origen
Cyprian of Carthage
Clement
Ephraim the Syrian
Optatus
Ambrose of Milan
Jerome

I am NOT getting tired of saying this to you post but do you ever get tired of being wrong?

Keeping it real with Christian history....Mary

Keeping Jesus’ TRUTH
Jesus SAID...”FOLLOW ME”.
Jesus SAID...”FOLLOW ME”.

Who are these list of men that you think matter?

 

[Illuminator]

I love Augustine. You like Augustine also? The quote you provided only says what The Church teaches and what EG and I have already agreed to: Peter is built upon THE rock (Christ). Sooooo not sure why you quoted that. Would you quote Augustine when he CLEARLY destroys what you and @Eternally Grateful have been taught by your Protestant men? Will you still like him then?​

AUGUSTINE
"Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear "I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven"' (Sermons 295:2 [a.d. 411]).

AUGUSTINE
"Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter?" (Commentary on John 56:1 [a.d. 416]).

Augustine
“If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.’ Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement. … In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found” (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).

BUT WAIT>>>BUT WAIT....there is MORE. Lets go FURTHER back in time and see what The Church taught about Peter BEFORE Augustine:

Tertullian
“Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).

“[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys” (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

The Letter of Clement to James
“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter” (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).


Origen
“Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’ [Matt. 14:31]” (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage
“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. . . . If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

“There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering” (Letters 43[40]:5 [A.D. 253]).

“There [John 6:68–69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ” (ibid., 66[69]:8).

Ephraim the Syrian
“[Jesus said:] ‘Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples’” (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).

Optatus
“You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all” (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

Ambrose of Milan
“[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . . ’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?” (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

“It is to Peter that he says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18]. Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal” (Commentary on Twelve Psalms of David 40:30 [A.D. 389]).


Jerome
“‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division” (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]).

I am NOT getting tired of saying this to you post but do you ever get tired of being wrong?

Keeping it real with Christian history....Mary

How to Avoid Converting to Catholicism, in 8 Easy Steps -
3) Don’t Read the Early Church Fathers
A third mistake that I made was nearly fatal: I began to read the Early Church Fathers.

Understand, these are the apostles of the apostles, the Christians who were taught by the very first Christians that Jesus taught. These are giants of Christianity who had direct access to those who heard Jesus’s very words, and touched his flesh. As an evangelical I didn’t even realize that this material exists and when I did, I began to devour it.

Do not read the Early Church Fathers.

As a naive, curious Christian I began to read the Early Church Fathers only to find out that they were startlingly Catholic. The Fathers wrote about Jesus being really present in Holy Communion—not simply as a symbol. They wrote, endlessly, about the importance of submitting to Bishops and respecting the authority of the Church—a Church which, in their minds, Jesus began, the apostles continued, and then passed on to them, by appointing them into places of authority.

When I began to realize that the Early Church didn’t look like the evangelical tradition I had grown up in I was shocked, and then affronted. I was always told, as an evangelical, that “house churches” were biblical—that independent, small groups of Christians meeting in an “upper room” was what happened in the first centuries of Christianity.

Instead, the Early Church is decidedly Catholic in its doctrine and its hierarchical structure, and if you’re not careful, you may come to a similarly shocking conclusion as I did. And then what?

How to Avoid Converting to Catholicism, in 8 Easy Steps -

 

[theefaith]

I feel so bad for you.

The sheep was Israel. if anything

Paul went to feed the people also.l with no authority of Peter. and he had more people to feed.

hierarchical authority
Christ
Peter
The apostles
The people

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How to Avoid Converting to Catholicism, in 8 Easy Steps -
3) Don’t Read the Early Church Fathers
A third mistake that I made was nearly fatal: I began to read the Early Church Fathers.

Understand, these are the apostles of the apostles, the Christians who were taught by the very first Christians that Jesus taught. These are giants of Christianity who had direct access to those who heard Jesus’s very words, and touched his flesh. As an evangelical I didn’t even realize that this material exists and when I did, I began to devour it.

Do not read the Early Church Fathers.

As a naive, curious Christian I began to read the Early Church Fathers only to find out that they were startlingly Catholic. The Fathers wrote about Jesus being really present in Holy Communion—not simply as a symbol. They wrote, endlessly, about the importance of submitting to Bishops and respecting the authority of the Church—a Church which, in their minds, Jesus began, the apostles continued, and then passed on to them, by appointing them into places of authority.

When I began to realize that the Early Church didn’t look like the evangelical tradition I had grown up in I was shocked, and then affronted. I was always told, as an evangelical, that “house churches” were biblical—that independent, small groups of Christians meeting in an “upper room” was what happened in the first centuries of Christianity.

Instead, the Early Church is decidedly Catholic in its doctrine and its hierarchical structure, and if you’re not careful, you may come to a similarly shocking conclusion as I did. And then what?

How to Avoid Converting to Catholicism, in 8 Easy Steps -

how to avoid converting to Catholicism

1. Don't listen to men
2. read scripture.
3. Don't look at history (history would have proved Christ was a heretic)

 

[theefaith]

yep and every one who has the gospel.

The pope does not open the door to let people into the kingdom. Thats nonsense

jurisdictional authority to govern the church