See if this helps you understand salvation…

[bbyrd009]

Well, I guess I would go to Scripture about heaven, before Bob Marley!

23"If anyone tells you then, Look, here is the Messiah!' or, Over here!' do not believe it!


28Wherever the carcass is, there the vultures will gather.

so, when the majority have an opinion that you agree with, it might be time to pause and reflect.

 

[farouk]

23"If anyone tells you then, Look, here is the Messiah!' or, Over here!' do not believe it!


28Wherever the carcass is, there the vultures will gather.

so, when the majority have an opinion that you agree with, it might be time to pause and reflect.

I remember the saying: One with God is a majority...

 

[bbyrd009]

I remember the saying: One with God is a majority...

ha, well, that is a different reflection of "majority" though...the more valid one, i guess, ya.

being as how, when you line up with Christ, you are not going to be in agreement with most people; there will be no crowd of acceptance surrounding you. you will be at odds with even your family, then. Which is not to say that you have no support systems among peers, but the dynamic changes. If you find yourself among a group of people whose beliefs mirror yours, iow you are all in "agreement" as far as doctrines go, you are in really bad shape, likely without realizing it. This can be compared to "the grave," and by definition, you have no possibility of learning from those you are in "agreement" with in this way. Weird, i know, but i got Scrip for this. This counterfeit of true agreement is the result of tares, which are not weeds, but false wheat, a mind-altering crop that is sought in the Mideast right now, today, for its psychoactive effects.

If you have been cloistered into a congregation of peers that confidently point to Christ, somewhere or somewhen else, and blithely describe a "them"--as opposed to their "us"--that is "lost," unlike the "us" who is "saved," then a simple review of the Pharisee's Prayer might serve to illuminate the position. Or not.

 

[bbyrd009]

23"If anyone tells you then, Look, here is the Messiah!' or, Over here!' do not believe it!


28Wherever the carcass is, there the vultures will gather.

so, when the majority have an opinion that you agree with, it might be time to pause and reflect.

compare the "carcass" here to what Cornelius gathered, when he asked for Jesus' "body," even though your tyranslation will surely tell you that Cornelius in fact got Jesus' body, which he did not, as the Lex shows.


(ha, "tyranslation," love it, stealin' it! )

 

[StanJ]

John 3.16 is indeed a wonderful summary of the Gospel: salvation is a work which God does for the sinner! and it's by faith. Divine sovereignty and human responsibility are both involved.

Exactly, our relationship with God is a synergy and not a one-way relationship.

 

[StanJ]

As I’ve stated in my post above, the Salvation plan of God is very complex and not readily understood, and if I might add, is sometimes hidden. Take John 3:16-18, for instance.
The word “so” in verse 16 can be translated “in this manner” or “thus,” and the word “whosoever” cannot mean anyone. It must be qualified.
How did God love the world? In this manner that He gave His only Son.
The word “whosoever” are those whom the Father gave to Jesus (John 6:37). If this is not so then the Father is lying to us for the Scriptures declare, “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.” So we see it cannot just be anyone!
According to Romans 3 no one has the ability or the power to believe or confess Jesus (Romans 10:9-11) unless he first become born again, and there is none that can make himself to be born again.
I don’t have to defend the doctrine of the OSAS because I believe the acronym speaks for itself. Let it suffice that when a saved person dies his body goes into the grave like any other unsaved person, the only difference is that in his spirit/soul essence, he goes to be with Christ in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8).
To God Be The Glory

Repeating something that has already been refuted just shows your inability to receive the truth.

 

[bbyrd009]

i gotta admit, this "Go somewhere, to be with Christ, Who is then by definition not herenow, in both Body and Spirit, as Scripture will tell you plainly" is troubling, to say the least.

 

[farouk]

I'll stick with the promises of Scripture.

 

[bbyrd009]

I'll stick with the promises of Scripture.

excellent, me too.

the Kingdom is very near to you

the Word is very near to you, in your mouth, and in your heart

16For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. (let the reader understand; "Tomorrow People" need not apply)

Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.

I gotta run, which i know bums you guys out, but that is the only way that you will get my Spirit, herenow, as soon as you grab onto it, God only knows when that might be...

hmm. So, if one of your "promises" is a Rapture, and some Bodily Return, you might look again, wadr.

 

[bbyrd009]

an interesting reflection, of the "tomorrow people" that existed in Christ's day, and are illuminated in Acts, and discussed in the Gospels--the ones who understood Christ to mean that He was coming right back, like in a couple of days, and who then went and sold everything they had in "preparation," all their houses and land, etc, and Joined Together in building what we read as "the First Church," that commune there in Acts that makes people so uncomfortable on some levels, well, those are the same people that Paul was collecting alms for a couple years later lol, let the reader understand

 

[Jun2u]

but of course there is no place called heaven

Jesus told the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in paradise." Paradise is a synonym for heaven. Before Jesus died He said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit.”
Many who posts in these forums (you know who you are) believe also like you that there is no place called heaven. Without realizing it you people have actually accused Jesus of being a liar.
We read in Luke 11:1-2:
1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2 And he said unto them, “When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name…”


To God Be The Glory

 

[StanJ]

Paradise is not a synonym for heaven, Paradise is Paradise heaven is heaven.

 

[Jun2u]

I was so sure you were not going to respond because we’ve had this discussion in the past where you denied the existence of heaven. I’m happy that finally you do admit there is a heaven.


To God Be The Glory

 

[StanJ]

I was so sure you were not going to respond because we’ve had this discussion in the past where you denied the existence of heaven. I’m happy that finally you do admit there is a heaven.
To God Be The Glory

You have a bad memory, I've never denied the existence of Heaven I've just denied that any believers have ever gone there just as Jesus teaches in John 6:46. As we've gone over this already I don't think it's necessary for me to repeat myself as you obviously didn't understand the first time around.

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus told the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in paradise." Paradise is a synonym for heaven. Before Jesus died He said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit.”
Many who posts in these forums (you know who you are) believe also like you that there is no place called heaven. Without realizing it you people have actually accused Jesus of being a liar.
We read in Luke 11:1-2:
1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2 And he said unto them, “When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name…”


To God Be The Glory

yes, to God, Who is everywhere, and in heaven, which no place is found for. You will not, ever, be able to point to heaven, or hell. they are spiritual places, spiritual states of being, as Samuel informs us through the Witch of Endor.

 

[Jun2u]

yes, to God, Who is everywhere, and in heaven, which no place is found for. You will not, ever, be able to point to heaven, or hell. they are spiritual places, spiritual states of being, as Samuel informs us through the Witch of Endor.

God is omnipresent yes. When people die they go to a temporary spiritual place called hell, hades, sheol, and grave. When the unsaved dies both his body and soul go to the grave to await Judgment. But when a child of God dies however, his body goes to the grave but in his soul existence he goes to be with God in heaven, until he is raised on the last day, in a twinkling of an eye, to be joined with his resurrected immortal body.
On the other hand, heaven is a tangible place. We read in John 14:2
“In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to
prepare a place for you.”
The term “mansions” above is the same translated word “abode” found in verse 23.
When Jesus prayed to the Father He would “look up” to heaven suggesting that that is where the Father is at. We read in John 17:1
“These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee.”


To God Be The Glory

 

[StanJ]

God is omnipresent yes. When people die they go to a temporary spiritual place called hell, hades, sheol, and grave. When the unsaved dies both his body and soul go to the grave to await Judgment. But when a child of God dies however, his body goes to the grave but in his soul existence he goes to be with God in heaven, until he is raised on the last day, in a twinkling of an eye, to be joined with his resurrected immortal body.
On the other hand, heaven is a tangible place. We read in John 14:2
“In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to
prepare a place for you.”
The term “mansions” above is the same translated word “abode” found in verse 23.
When Jesus prayed to the Father He would “look up” to heaven suggesting that that is where the Father is at. We read in John 17:1
“These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee.”
To God Be The Glory

You conveniently forget to mention that Lazarus when he died I went to Abraham's bosom which was not with God and the rich man went to Hades but they could see one another. Paradise is not heaven but it is a temporary place that all believers will go to until Jesus returns for his church.
As far as Jesus going to prepare a place for his return the place he prepared was the New Jerusalem and it will be revealed as it is in Revelation 21. Heaven is not a physical place so obviously again Jesus is using hyperbole here to describe what will happen in the future.

 

[bbyrd009]

yes, ok; and the future might also be applied to you, and it might even be evident in another's walk, someone metaphorically ahead of you on the path, too. Understand I AM.

 

[Jun2u]

I know you don’t like for people to repeat things but sometimes it is necessary to make for clarifications. And so again, I repeat, Luke 16:19-31 is a parable. A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly/spiritual meaning, and that makes the whole Bible a parable (Mark 4:12-13), and is also known throughout the world as the “Greatest Story Ever Told.”
In the parable of the Wheat and Tares, Jesus explained who or what the wheat and tares represented. There is no difference in the language of Luke 16 we’ll just have to determine what character represents whom as I will try to explain below who these are. Immediately however, we know Luke 16 is a parable because we read that Lazarus was carried by the angels straight to Abraham’s bosom. I don’t recall this ever happening to any one before. God took Enoch but does not tell us how and Elijah went up in a whirlwind into heaven. If Luke 16 is not a parable where then did the rich man’s tongue and eyes come from seeing he was in hell?
God did not open our spiritual eyes to the truths of Luke 16. I think He wanted us to search out the Bible like the Bereans. I believe the Biblical explanations and representations of the characters of Luke 16 mentioned are these:
1 Father Abraham = is a representation and type of God the Father.
2 Lazarus = is a representation and typifies all believers who are safe in the arms of God.
3 The rich man = is a representation and typifies all the unsaved of the world.
4 Moses and the prophets = is a representation of the commandments of God.
5 The term “though one rose from the dead” = is a term that points to Jesus.

Armed with these information, read again Luke 16:19-31 very, very carefully and you might perhaps come up with the same conclusions as I did, but read it in light of 1 Corinthians 2:14 for this is one of many principles and methodology by which the Holy Spirit guides the believers to read and interpret scriptures, and by comparing scriptures with scriptures.

You conveniently forget to mention that Lazarus when he died I went to Abraham's bosom which was not with God

“Abraham’s bosom” typifies the Father ’s care for the believers. Believers are safe in the arms of God. Indeed Lazarus went to the Father.

but they could see one another.

This is not possible since there is a gulf fixed between heaven and hell that we read about in verse 26.

As far as Jesus going to prepare a place for his return the place he prepared was the New Jerusalem and it will be revealed as it is in Revelation 21

This preparation for a place for the believers is a done deal! The only way Jesus could prepare a place for the believers in God’s house was for Him to go to the cross, and defeat Satan. That is exactly what He did (Matthew 12:29; Revelation 20:1-2). Where is God;s house? In paradise or in heaven?
The problem I believe for many Christians having wrong doctrines is that they don’t bother to search out scriptures, the deeper and spiritual meaning of scriptures, to see if their conclusions are harmonious with the rest of the Bible. And sometimes or most of the time, they will take the work of another person and adopt it. It’s like the blind leading the blind.

To God Be The Glory

 

[bbyrd009]

hmm