Seeing Signs....Spiritually

[whirlwind]

The New Testament verses that you cite refer to the teachings of the Apostles. You are not an Apostle.

Dodo, what is an apostle or prophet?

Apostle #652 - a delegate, an ambassador of the Gospel, a commissioner of Christ, a messenger, he that is sent, (with miraculous powers),

An apostle is a disciple (one who learns, disciplined in the Word) and is sent to teach as led by the Holy Spirit

Prophet #4396 - a foreteller, by anal. an inspired speaker.

A prophet today (for there are no new things to tell as He "foretold all things" [Mk.13:23]) is one who is inspired by the Holy Spirit...given revelation and understanding of the written word.



Both apostles and prophets are sent into the world to speak and that time of sending includes today....



Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

1 Corinthians 12:28-29 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?


It isn't easy for the prophets and apostles are met with resistance...

John 4:44 For Jesus Himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his own country.


But, they are fortified, strengthened by God. They may be slain and persecuted (banned on forums) but they will persevere.


Ezekiel 3:8-10 Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads. As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. Moreover He said unto me, Son of man, all My words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears.

 

[Dodo_David]

whirlwind, are you claiming to be an apostle or a prophet?

 

[michaelvpardo]

1. We know that the Holy Spirit does give us revelation (spiritual understanding) of the written Word and that doesn't mean He teaches us to read...it is written.

It may just be a matter of semantics, but my understanding is that biblical scholars refer to the teaching of the Holy Spirit through His word, as illumination, not revelation. Revelation is generally understood to refer to new revealed truth about God (as in the book we know as the Revelation of Jesus Christ). The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ also tells us that the Revelation of God in the person of His Son is complete (hence the curse for adding to or subtracting from it.)
Now, what I've discovered to be painfully true is that personal "revelations" with regard to scriptural interpretation are more likely personal "applications" that have real relevance to our own lives, but not necessarily any universal application for specific scriptural interpretation. That is, the Lord may have shown you some things from scripture that are relevant to your walk with Him, but this doesn't make them universally true.
E.G.: I was once asked to do a brief introduction for a ministry leader from a local rehabilitation ministry called "America's Keswick."
While preparing the introduction, the Lord impressed upon me the use of the story of the Gaderene demoniac as a corollary to those enslaved to the use of alcohol and other drugs, which I then used in my brief introductory speech. It turned out that the founder of "America's Keswick" had been inspired by the same story when he started his "colony of mercy" in southern New Jersey, so the introduction was a better fit than I would've anticipated. While the story of the demoniac has relevance by way of application to the ministry of the Holy Spirit in delivering men from such sin, the fact that the Lord "inspired" its use doesn't mean that alcoholics and drug users are all demon possessed. There is a universal application of a sort to such tormented people, but not a universal interpretation.
The Lord has shown me a number of things which I believe are relevant to the church at large, but given my understanding of the commonly accepted uses of the words "revelation" and "inspiration," I would no longer refer to any such thing as a "revelation." Claiming to have new "revelations" is more likely to drop you into the category of Joseph Smith, David Koresh, or some other Masonic type, in the minds of most Christians who engage in biblical scholarship. If you really are hearing something (receiving something) from the Lord, it would probably be better to use more caution with your choice of words. Anyone who knows anything is going to test what you say against scripture anyway and no scripture is of "private interpretation."

 

[Dodo_David]

It may just be a matter of semantics, but my understanding is that biblical scholars refer to the teaching of the Holy Spirit through His word, as illumination, not revelation. Revelation is generally understood to refer to new revealed truth about God (as in the book we know as the Revelation of Jesus Christ). The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ also tells us that the Revelation of God in the person of His Son is complete (hence the curse for adding to or subtracting from it.)
Now, what I've discovered to be painfully true is that personal "revelations" with regard to scriptural interpretation are more likely personal "applications" that have real relevance to our own lives, but not necessarily any universal application for specific scriptural interpretation. That is, the Lord may have shown you some things from scripture that are relevant to your walk with Him, but this doesn't make them universally true.
E.G.: I was once asked to do a brief introduction for a ministry leader from a local rehabilitation ministry called "America's Keswick."
While preparing the introduction, the Lord impressed upon me the use of the story of the Gaderene demoniac as a corollary to those enslaved to the use of alcohol and other drugs, which I then used in my brief introductory speech. It turned out that the founder of "America's Keswick" had been inspired by the same story when he started his "colony of mercy" in southern New Jersey, so the introduction was a better fit than I would've anticipated. While the story of the demoniac has relevance by way of application to the ministry of the Holy Spirit in delivering men from such sin, the fact that the Lord "inspired" its use doesn't mean that alcoholics and drug users are all demon possessed. There is a universal application of a sort to such tormented people, but not a universal interpretation.
The Lord has shown me a number of things which I believe are relevant to the church at large, but given my understanding of the commonly accepted uses of the words "revelation" and "inspiration," I would no longer refer to any such thing as a "revelation." Claiming to have new "revelations" is more likely to drop you into the category of Joseph Smith, David Koresh, or some other Masonic type, in the minds of most Christians who engage in biblical scholarship. If you really are hearing something (receiving something) from the Lord, it would probably be better to use more caution with your choice of words. Anyone who knows anything is going to test what you say against scripture anyway and no scripture is of "private interpretation."

Bravo, Michael. Well said.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, whirlwind.

It has to represent Satan as...it does represent Satan. He is one of the two great lights.

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: He made the stars also.

Does the church "rule the night?" No...but Satan does. He is darkness and those that follow him are children of darkness.

The moon transforms itself (pretends to be) a body of light but...it isn't. It is an example of the false Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


The moon is dark and dead...the church is not as the church is comprised of those that walk in His Light and as such...are a light to those in darkness.....

Romans 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,



I would add that all Biblical prophecy of Satan is given in lunar time...why is that?








You bring up an interesting point....however, this thread is not discussing angels of the churches. Rather it is...."signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations." As signs in the sun can be bad (turning to darkness) and be good for we are signs....and the moon (turning to blood) is of a Satanic nature...I believe the signs in the stars will follow suit. As I wrote....


Stars are angels. So, angelic beings will be signs. There are good angels and...fallen angels. We know this will be a time of turmoil so are the "stars" the return of the fallen angels, the "wandering stars?" Are they those that are held in chains of darkness (meaning under the control of Satan) to come forward in the last days?


Jude 1:6,13 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.(13) Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.







When the Holy Spirit opens understanding, as is this case,...it is to receive revelation. And I thank Him for that:


1 Corinthians 2:13-14 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



______________________________________________________________________









I did look at the verse in context and....I am given to see it spiritually and relay that to you.







I am not surprised. Many do for many cannot yet see spiritually.

I was re-reading this post, and the more I think about it, I simply MUST disagree. Eastern mysticism uses the Yin-Yang philosophy, and haSatan would like EVERYONE to believe that he is the opposite power to God, but he is NOT! He will suffer in the Lake of Burning Sulfur the same as anyone who rebels against God! Indeed, we are told that the everlasting fire was made for the devil and his angels!

Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
KJV

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
KJV

He may TRY to represent himself as an "angel of light," but he is NOT one of the two great lights! I reject that interpretation in its entirety! If the Father is the SUN, then the moon reflects his light! I don't see haSatan reflecting ANY of God's light!

Besides, we need to be clear about "wandering stars": The word "wandering" in Jude 13 is "planeetai" from which we get our word "planet." So, are we talking about "stars" here or are we talking about the "planets?" And, if the stars represent the angels, what do the planets represent? What do the asteroids represent? What do the comets represent? And, we can go the other way in size, too: What do the clouds of interstellar dust represent? What do collapsars or black holes represent? What do pulsars represent? What do the nebulae represent? What do the galaxies represent? If one thing out of many represents something else, shouldn't the other things of the many represent something as well? Where does it stop?! Can you see how that analogies quickly grow beyond their intended usefulness?

Do you see how complicated this can get? Furthermore, there is a truism that is known in philosophy, literature, and speech: Every analogy eventually breaks down! You can only push an analogy so far before what the analogy represents begins to wander away from the truth it was intended to represent! And, if you don't start with a viable premise to the analogy, it will wander away sooner than later!

No, I reject this line of teaching entirely. It's too subjective, making the interpretation of the Scriptures at the whim of the interpreter! It lends itself to making one a hypercritic, making one judge, jury and executioner regarding the meaning of the Scriptures! One might even escalate to CORRECTING God's Word! That's a BAD role to take on! It's always better to let the Scriptures speak to you, but that means to let the AUTHORS speak to you! Human beings under God's inspiration penned the words; we need to listen to them, take the words to heart, and not think of ourselves more highly than we ought!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

It may just be a matter of semantics, but my understanding is that biblical scholars refer to the teaching of the Holy Spirit through His word, as illumination, not revelation. Revelation is generally understood to refer to new revealed truth about God (as in the book we know as the Revelation of Jesus Christ). The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ also tells us that the Revelation of God in the person of His Son is complete (hence the curse for adding to or subtracting from it.)
Now, what I've discovered to be painfully true is that personal "revelations" with regard to scriptural interpretation are more likely personal "applications" that have real relevance to our own lives, but not necessarily any universal application for specific scriptural interpretation. That is, the Lord may have shown you some things from scripture that are relevant to your walk with Him, but this doesn't make them universally true.

MVP

BRAVO !!!!!!!

 

[whirlwind]

whirlwind, are you claiming to be an apostle or a prophet?

Why is this of importance to you Dodo?


1 Corinthians 12:4-7 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

12:11-14 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

12:15-18 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased Him.

12:25-31 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.




_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

It may just be a matter of semantics, but my understanding is that biblical scholars refer to the teaching of the Holy Spirit through His word, as illumination, not revelation. Revelation is generally understood to refer to new revealed truth about God (as in the book we know as the Revelation of Jesus Christ). The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ also tells us that the Revelation of God in the person of His Son is complete (hence the curse for adding to or subtracting from it.)
Now, what I've discovered to be painfully true is that personal "revelations" with regard to scriptural interpretation are more likely personal "applications" that have real relevance to our own lives, but not necessarily any universal application for specific scriptural interpretation. That is, the Lord may have shown you some things from scripture that are relevant to your walk with Him, but this doesn't make them universally true.
E.G.: I was once asked to do a brief introduction for a ministry leader from a local rehabilitation ministry called "America's Keswick."
While preparing the introduction, the Lord impressed upon me the use of the story of the Gaderene demoniac as a corollary to those enslaved to the use of alcohol and other drugs, which I then used in my brief introductory speech. It turned out that the founder of "America's Keswick" had been inspired by the same story when he started his "colony of mercy" in southern New Jersey, so the introduction was a better fit than I would've anticipated. While the story of the demoniac has relevance by way of application to the ministry of the Holy Spirit in delivering men from such sin, the fact that the Lord "inspired" its use doesn't mean that alcoholics and drug users are all demon possessed. There is a universal application of a sort to such tormented people, but not a universal interpretation.
The Lord has shown me a number of things which I believe are relevant to the church at large, but given my understanding of the commonly accepted uses of the words "revelation" and "inspiration," I would no longer refer to any such thing as a "revelation."

[/QUOTE]


Illumination:

Hebrews 10:31-33 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

To be illuminated is to be "lightened, made to see." We are given spiritual understanding...eyes and ears.


Revelation:


Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation He made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

To receive revelation is to be "lightened, revealed." We are given spiritual understanding...eyes and ears.


Both (for they are the same) means one is taught by the Holy Spirit. Deeper meaning of the written Word is revealed and that is to see the Word spiritually.

Claiming to have new "revelations" is more likely to drop you into the category of Joseph Smith, David Koresh, or some other Masonic type, in the minds of most Christians who engage in biblical scholarship. If you really are hearing something (receiving something) from the Lord, it would probably be better to use more caution with your choice of words. Anyone who knows anything is going to test what you say against scripture anyway and no scripture is of "private interpretation."

I claim nothing. I provide understanding as I am given...do with it as you will. I am to speak His Words to you and then...my part ends.

As you are rather snidely suggesting, by writing "if you really are hearing" as well as freely giving advice....I feel free to offer you the following:

1. I ALWAYS provide Scriptural validation for the illumination/revelations are given me as I search the Scriptures.

2. I do not take the advice, as you have, of "Biblical Scholars" over understanding given by the Holy spirit. They are men...as are you and I.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

3. I'm not sure you are understanding your remark of "private interpretation." All prophecy of the Scripture is the Word of God...provided by God. It is the written word. There are NO MORE new things for us to know for Jesus said, "I have foretold you all things." Todays prophets provide spiritual understanding of the already written Word....as moved by the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The passage does not mean the Holy Spirit does not provide interpretations TODAY of the written Word for He certainly does.

 

[Dodo_David]

whirlwind, are you claiming to be an apostle or a prophet?

Why is this of importance to you Dodo?

Please answer my question.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi David,

Before whirlwind decides how to deal with your question, could I ask if you see any difference between an Old Testament 'prophet' and a New Testament 'prophet', and if so, how would you define the difference?

And (second question) does, 'The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy' (Rev 19:10) apply to everyone who believes, or, only 'prophets'?

For your information, I believe there is a big difference in the way the 'spirit of prophecy' operates from one believer to another, and not all are 'called' to be 'prophets' under the New Covenant, although all may prophesy.

 

[Dodo_David]

Hi David,

Before whirlwind decides how to deal with your question, could I ask if you see any difference between an Old Testament 'prophet' and a New Testament 'prophet', and if so, how would you define the difference?

And (second question) does, 'The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy' (Rev 19:10) apply to everyone who believes, or, only 'prophets'?

For your information, I believe there is a big difference in the way the 'spirit of prophecy' operates from one believer to another, and not all are 'called' to be 'prophets' under the New Covenant, although all may prophesy.

I simply want to know if a participant in this discussion is claiming to be an apostle or a prophet.

 

[dragonfly]

I simply want to know if a participant in this discussion is claiming to be an apostle or a prophet.

So, if it turns out that he is an apostle, and a prophet, and a teacher, and a pastor and an evangelist, why should he have to make the claim in writing on a forum, when it is most likely that none of us will ever meet him in person, to be able to ascertain that his life bears out his written testimony?

In fact, if I may be totally frank with you, I do not believe you should be asking him to make any claims about his ministry at all. The fact that you are, speaks for itself - in a way. Jesus made Himself 'of no reputation', but people who did not even have the Holy Spirit (although they did have the scriptures, and history) could work out that He was in touch with God, simply by watching His ministry and demeanour.

He prophesied, but is not recorded as ever having 'claimed' to be 'a prophet'. That is our example. It is left to others to recognise the ministry, and determine their own relationship to the word of God through it, according to whether they trust God or not.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

I see no reason not to interpret those verses literally.

Dodo_David

Getting into this late but in regards to Luke 21:25

I also believe these things are spiritual, as whirwind points out. So sometimes another scripture speaking of the same event will clear it up.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man, not bodily

then all the tribes of the earth (tribes relate to Israel in many parts of the bible and since Jesus is speaking to the tribes of Israel here it should be understood as that).

The gentiles of that time would not have understood these remarks of Jesus anyway, but the Jews would have.

Think spiritually, for God is a Spirit.

Be blessed

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Rocky Wiley.

Dodo_David

Getting into this late but in regards to Luke 21:25

I also believe these things are spiritual, as whirwind points out. So sometimes another scripture speaking of the same event will clear it up.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man, not bodily

then all the tribes of the earth (tribes relate to Israel in many parts of the bible and since Jesus is speaking to the tribes of Israel here it should be understood as that).

The gentiles of that time would not have understood these remarks of Jesus anyway, but the Jews would have.

Think spiritually, for God is a Spirit.

Be blessed

Wrong part of the verse upon which to concentrate. Concentrate on the SECOND part of the verse!

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

They shall see the sign AND the Son of man, as well!

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Shalom, Rocky Wiley.


Wrong part of the verse upon which to concentrate. Concentrate on the SECOND part of the verse!

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

They shall see the sign AND the Son of man, as well!

Retrobyter,

The tribes of Israel would have realized that coming in the clouds, would not mean they would actually see God. The fact he was talking to the Jews, means that the gentiles were not even invited to the event. It happened in 70 AD.

You are one of several that makes me think and study God's word.

Thanks

 

[whirlwind]

Please answer my question.

You have received the answer God provided through Paul.

12:25-31 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.



You should ask the question of yourself....are you trying to create a schism in the body by your question?
__________________________________________________________________

Dodo_David

Getting into this late but in regards to Luke 21:25

I also believe these things are spiritual, as whirwind points out. So sometimes another scripture speaking of the same event will clear it up.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man, not bodily

then all the tribes of the earth (tribes relate to Israel in many parts of the bible and since Jesus is speaking to the tribes of Israel here it should be understood as that).

The gentiles of that time would not have understood these remarks of Jesus anyway, but the Jews would have.

Think spiritually, for God is a Spirit.

Be blessed

Thank you Rocky, it is good to be in agreement.

______________________________________________________

Shalom, Rocky Wiley.


Wrong part of the verse upon which to concentrate. Concentrate on the SECOND part of the verse!

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

They shall see the sign AND the Son of man, as well!

What, or who, are the "clouds of heaven" in whom He comes? And, what is "the sign" of the Son of man in heaven?


Realize too that to "see" is to see with one's eyes or.....can be understood as in, "oh I see what you mean."
______________________________________________________________________________

Retrobyter,

The tribes of Israel would have realized that coming in the clouds, would not mean they would actually see God. The fact he was talking to the Jews, means that the gentiles were not even invited to the event. It happened in 70 AD.

You are one of several that makes me think and study God's word.

Thanks

LOL. And here we are in disagreement...on more than one point.

1. The tribes of Israel would include all believers for when one believes...one is adopted/grafted into Israel. So, the lesson is for all believers.

2. The 70AD event isn't the end Jesus was speaking of.

 

[Dodo_David]

You have received the answer God provided through Paul.

12:25-31 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.



You should ask the question of yourself....are you trying to create a schism in the body by your question?

So, what does the above-cited passage in 1 Corinthians 12 have to do with you personally? Are you saying that you are one of the apostles and prophets mentioned in the above-cited passage?

If you believe that the Holy Spirit has given you those particular gifts, then why are you reluctant to say so?

No schism is being created by an inquiry into the spiritual gifts that you believe yourself to have.

 

[whirlwind]

So, what does the above-cited passage in 1 Corinthians 12 have to do with you personally? Are you saying that you are one of the apostles and prophets mentioned in the above-cited passage?

If you believe that the Holy Spirit has given you those particular gifts, then why are you reluctant to say so?

No schism is being created by an inquiry into the spiritual gifts that you believe yourself to have.

Dodo...you are trying to create a schism and it is rather shameful.

If you take exception to what I am writing in various posts then it is incumbent on you, especially as a mod, to address them. You are not doing so.

Why we got started on the wrong foot isn't the question for...we certainly have. The question is, are we going to continue on this path? I would prefer not to.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Whirlwind (printed in black)

What, or who, are the "clouds of heaven" in whom He comes? And, what is "the sign" of the Son of man in heaven?


Realize too that to "see" is to see with one's eyes or.....can be understood as in, "oh I see what you mean."


The sign the scripture was speaking of is God coming in judgment, and that sign was when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by the army that would destroy Jerusalem and the temple.
Luk_21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
The disciples knew that, as well as every Jew that had studied the Word as a child. That would be all of them. Why do you think the disciples ask the question of “When will these things be, the sign of thy coming and the end of the age”. It wasn’t for our benefit, it was for their’s.
Coming in the cloud is what God did a lot of:

Exo_13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:
Exo_16:10 And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.
Exo_19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
Exo_24:16 And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
Exo_34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
Exo_40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
Exo_40:35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
Exo_40:38 For the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys.
Lev_16:2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.
Lev_16:13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:
Num_9:18 At the commandment of the LORD the children of Israel journeyed, and at the commandment of the LORD they pitched: as long as the cloud abode upon the tabernacle they rested in their tents.
Num_9:19 And when the cloud tarried long upon the tabernacle many days, then the children of Israel kept the charge of the LORD, and journeyed not.
Num_9:20 And so it was, when the cloud was a few days upon the tabernacle; according to the commandment of the LORD they abode in their tents, and according to the commandment of the LORD they journeyed.
Num_10:34 And the cloud of the LORD was upon them by day, when they went out of the camp.
Num_11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
Num_12:5 And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
Num_14:14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.
Num_16:42 And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared.
Deu_5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
Deu_31:15 And the LORD appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle.
1Ki_8:10 And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD,
1Ki_8:11 So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.
2Ch_5:13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;
2Ch_5:14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.
Isa_4:5 And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
Isa_18:4 For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.
Isa_19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
Lam_2:1 How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!
Eze_1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
Eze_10:4 Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD'S glory.

LOL. And here we are in disagreement...on more than one point.
1. The tribes of Israel would include all believers for when one believes...one is adopted/grafted into Israel. So, the lesson is for all believers.
2. The 70AD event isn't the end Jesus was speaking of.

All prophecy in the bible was given to the Jews. Daniel’s prophecy of the end of time was a prophecy to the Jews. If one doesn’t believe that would you please give the prophecy that is addressed to us so the rest of us can read it.

The coming of Jesus was in Daniel’s prophecy to the Jews.

 

[whirlwind]

Whirlwind (printed in black)

Hi Rocky, This is my day off so I'm on my way to get some shopping done for the grandkids. I look forward to discussing your post with you when I get back this afternoon.


____________________________________________________________



Rocky:

Whirlwind (printed in black)

What, or who, are the "clouds of heaven" in whom He comes? And, what is "the sign" of the Son of man in heaven?


Realize too that to "see" is to see with one's eyes or.....can be understood as in, "oh I see what you mean."


Rocky - The sign the scripture was speaking of is God coming in judgment, and that sign was when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by the army that would destroy Jerusalem and the temple.
Luk_21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
The disciples knew that, as well as every Jew that had studied the Word as a child. That would be all of them. Why do you think the disciples ask the question of “When will these things be, the sign of thy coming and the end of the age”. It wasn’t for our benefit, it was for their’s.

Literal Jerusalem is surrounded by armies today (a David in the midst of Goliaths). Spiritual Jerusalem (all believers) is also surrounded by the enemy. So...the desolation, the abomination of desolation, is near. To believe that the end happened in 70AD is to overlook some things....the abomination of desolation being one.


The abomination of desolation is connected to the end of days. It is written of in Daniel and Mark 13 where the words "then let them that be in Judaea flee."




Mark 13:14http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+13:14&version=KJV But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

It is also linked to the gospel of Luke [21:22 see below] about the same time...the end of days...where the same phrase is used..."then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains." Therefore we know all mentioned concern the very same event.

Luke 21:5-7 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, He said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And they asked Him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

21:20-22 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


Notice that ALL THINGS written will be fulfilled when the time He was speaking of occur. They did not happen in 70AD. The gospel of Matthew also speaks of this time:

Matthew 24:2-3 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


All things must happen which will herald the end of the world. The destruction of the temple did not do that. Jesus did not come in clouds and....there are still HUGE STONES, one upon another, standing.

Coming in the cloud is what God did a lot of:

Exo_13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:
[snip]

Yes He did but, what are the clouds He comes in to end this age?


Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

He comes in us!

LOL. And here we are in disagreement...on more than one point.
1. The tribes of Israel would include all believers for when one believes...one is adopted/grafted into Israel. So, the lesson is for all believers.
2. The 70AD event isn't the end Jesus was speaking of.

All prophecy in the bible was given to the Jews. Daniel’s prophecy of the end of time was a prophecy to the Jews. If one doesn’t believe that would you please give the prophecy that is addressed to us so the rest of us can read it.

The coming of Jesus was in Daniel’s prophecy to the Jews.

All prophecy given to the Jews....why do we even study the Bible? All prophecy concerns His children.

Does Jesus come to us or to the Jews? If to all of us then why do you see the prophecy of His coming to be given to them?

 

[Dodo_David]

Folks, I am asking a person to state what spiritual gifts that the person believes he has been given.

Making such an inquiry about a person's spiritual gifts is not being divisive.