Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

[APAK]

Hi APAK, and appreciate your laborious replies and support!


God's blessings to your Family!

You are welcome and thank you, with my deepest thoughts on your spiritual works for God. I love to do bible study and share truth that I receive. I also like to learn and listen to instruction of what I do not know that can become part of the truth and my life, in the future. Self-examination is a great thing so we won't be fooled by fly-by-night or fleeting ideas generated from ourselves or others. Each time I go over the same scripture verses or passages I get amazed by the spirit within that leads me to see more spiritual knowledge in them. I love it!

God Bless you,

APAK

 

[Netchaplain]

Each time I go over the same scripture verses or passages I get amazed by the spirit within that leads me to see more spiritual knowledge in them. I love it!

Amen, me too, and I much like that the learning is always deeper and endless! In that last 40 years of my Bible studies I've found a couple of good early commentators that I've been enjoying for quite some time (Albert Barnes and John Gill). Checking with some commentators on spiritual growth doctrine is the quickest I've found to learn because the Lord uses them in a great way.

 

[APAK]

Amen, me too, and I much like that the learning is always deeper and endless! In that last 40 years of my Bible studies I've found a couple of good early commentators that I've been enjoying for quite some time (Albert Barnes and John Gill). Checking with some commentators on spiritual growth doctrine is the quickest I've found to learn because the Lord uses them in a great way.

God is working in your life and mine and others that know him; many on this site. My spirit at this moment is telling me this in a mental and physical way. Thank you Lord for being present to guide and live in me. All the praise and glory is yours, you are the source of love, mercy, and peace.
I just got caught up in a moment...words cannot describe..

Spiritual growth is wants every believer wants, they cannot stop it when he or she is jiving and in synch with the spirit of love and truth in them. Jesus loves us to be with and in us, in spirit, his own life as you said.

Yes, I myself analyze more and more commentaries of many scholars and I can actually know more that just the words on their papers. I really understand what they are saying whether I agree with their words or meanings or not.... the spirit is the referee and arbiter for me...

Thank you brother for the encouragement,

Bless you again,

APAK

 

[epostle1]

The OP cites two CALVINISTIC commentators who introduced their Calvinistic biases into the texts. On another forum I have participated on (CARM) I recently brought up the 2 Peter 2 context on that forum showing how it disproves OSAS.

2 Pet 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

The Calvinistic response, as least from one Calvinist, was simply to deny that "bought" as used in 2 Peter 2:1 has anything to do with salvation, nothing to do with being redeemed by the blood of Christ. To which I responded with:

(1)

2 Pet 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

The epistle is being written to Christians and the pronoun "you" refers to Christians. These false teacher would come from among Christians even denying the Lord that had bought them, with "among you" contrasted from "among the people"

It takes such a great strain to deny "the Lord/Master" refers to someone other than Christ. If "the Lord" does not refer to Christ, then what man is Peter saying had redeemed (past tense) them?

(2)

1 Pet 1:18-19 "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:"

Again, Peter here is writing to Christians who had been "redeemed....with the precious blood of Christ". And it would be from among those who had been bought/redeemed by Christ's blood that false teachers would come per 2 Pet 2:1 where there would be false teachers among "you" with "you" referring to those redeemed by the blood of Christ per 1 Pet 1:18-19.


(3)

2 Pet 2:1 begins with "but" a contrasting word where Peter is making a contrast between true prophets of 2 Pet 1:16-21 from the "false prophets among the people". These false prophets among the people is an OT reference. There among the elect of Israel came those that prophesied falsely and Peter then says to those Christians he was writing to "even there shall be false teachers among you". So false prophets can and do come from God's elect, both OT and NT,.....false prophets come from among those that have been 'bought'.

(4)

2 Pet 2:15 "Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;"

Those false teachers have "forsaken the right way". Logically they could not forsake the right way if they were never in the right way.

(5)

2 Pet 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

Logically these false teachers could not have escaped (past tense) the pollutions of the world if they were always polluted, always lost. They could not become AGAIN entangled if they were always entangled/always lost, never saved.

(6)

2 Pet 2:21 "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." these false teachers could not turn away from the way of righteousness if they never had had been in the way of righteousness.

(7)

2 Pet 2:22 "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

This is a graphic depiction of those false teachers that Peter said will come from among Christians, these false teachers had in the past "vomited" up all the sin and corruption in them having been "bought", that is, redeemed by the blood of Christ. Now they have gone back and have consumed AGAIN all that sin and corruption back into themselves. They could not leave that "vomit" alone, could not leave the sin and corruption alone. They go back to wallowing in the sin and corruption they had once been redeemed from by the blood of Christ, washed by the blood of Christ.


(8) those that had been 'bought" here in 2 Pet 2:1 were the ones Christ " purchased with his own blood" Acts 20:28. This is the connection you do not want to make for it kills your argument. Again those Peter speaks of in 2 Pet 2:1 had been "bought" - redeemed in the past tense. If Christ is not the "Master" that bought/redeemed them, then what man other than Christ has the power, ability to buy/redeem men? What man other than Christ has the power/ability to "wash" the sow clean?


The Calvinist continued to deny that "bought" has anything to do with be redeemed by the blood of Christ/salvation.
Denial does not prove or disprove anything.

The Calvinist was asked if "bought" does not refer to salvation then what alternative explanation can he give to the context of 2 Peter 2. To which the Calvinist replied "I have no obligation to do anything."

To the continued denial I replied:

To any Calvinist:


2 Peter 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."


1) Who does "Lord" refer to?
2) What does the word "bought" mean in the context?
3) Who did this "Lord" buy and why did this "Lord" buy them?
4) why were those who were "bought" denying the "Lord" who bought them?

2 Peter 2:22 "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

How does this proverb relate to the false teachers in verse 1?


2 Peter 2:18 "For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error......20 .For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

How do these verses relate to the false teachers in verse 1?
What does the words "clean escape" mean in verse 18?
Who does the pronoun "they" in verse 20 refer to? The false teachers from verse 1 or the false teachers converts that were "clean" and had "escaped"?


2 Peter 2:15 "Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;"

How does this verse relate to the false teachers of verse 1?
Who was Balaam and how do the false teachers of verse 1 relate to Balaam?

To which I never got a response.

You make some good points. Super-pope Matt Slick is a cult leader and his site is a snake pit. I stopped going there. If my posts don't get deleted over biased rule violations, they get buried under an avalanche of CARMinions.

 

[Enoch111]

You make some good points. Super-pope Matt Slick is a cult leader and his site is a snake pit.

The more your revile Matt Slick, the more will people flock to his site to see why he is being reviled when he is trying to publish Bible truth. I don't agree with all of his theology, but he is definitely not a cult leader with a snake pit.

I think the Vatican could qualify for that description. All 34 Catholic bishops in Chile resigned rather than be fired for their heinous deeds. Pope Francis should have resigned at the same time. And on a worldwide scale, that is only the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

That's a song not boasting so much, it's a hope of song to lift people up like so.

I like Johnny Cash songs he has some real good Christian songs.

 

[Triumph1300]

Reggie,
I have the New Testament on CDs spoken by Johnny Cash.
I play it when I'm in the car.

 

[APAK]

@kepha31 : well I thought I might write further on some of your verses you provided earlier...

(Luk 15:11) And he said, A certain man had two sons:
(Luk 15:12) And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
(Luk 15:13) And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
(Luk 15:14) And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
(Luk 15:15) And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
(Luk 15:16) And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
(Luk 15:17) And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
(Luk 15:18) I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
(Luk 15:19) And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
(Luk 15:20) And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
(Luk 15:21) And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
(Luk 15:22) But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
(Luk 15:23) And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
(Luk 15:24) For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
(Luk 15:25) Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing.
(Luk 15:26) And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
(Luk 15:27) And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
(Luk 15:28) And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
(Luk 15:29) And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
(Luk 15:30) But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
(Luk 15:31) And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
(Luk 15:32) It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. (ALL NEW)

Luke speaks of an unbeliever and uses a family (father and brother figures) setting to show a sinner who knows about God, leave him and then return to him in sincerity, for a new lifestyle to salvation. Viola, the prodigal son.

A lost unbelieving son uses his inheritance to live the immoral lavish life in the world. He is careless and becomes poor and is starving. He uses his evil heart to do his own will and then the thrill is gone. It does not fulfill his heart anymore. He is starving inside. He misses and yearns for God’s presence in his father’s house that provides ‘food.’

He wants to know God for himself and acknowledges he has sinned – pride, lust of the flesh, etc., before his father and God. He wants to be a servant of his father- a servant of God.

He is truly sorry and walks back to God in true belief and with his own faith. His father as God's presence shows compassion, mercy, love and grace. He gives the son faith to truly believe and become saved. His other elder brother is jealous of all the attention given to his younger brother. His father says you are already a believer with salvation, your younger brother just became as you, and we now are celebrating this event with joy. God celebrates and loves a sinner when he comes to him in a true, humble and contrite heart. God now will never let him go because he reached out and wanted to ‘saved.’ And God did all the work to close his initial desire with true peace and his everlasting love.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[APAK]

@kepha31 : continuing on with two more of your John passages.....John 6:70-71 and John 17:12.

(Joh 6:60) Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

(Joh 6:61) When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

(Joh 6:62) What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

(Joh 6:63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

(Joh 6:64) But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

(Joh 6:65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

(Joh 6:66) From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

(Joh 6:67) Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

(Joh 6:68) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

(Joh 6:69) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

(Joh 6:70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

(Joh 6:71) He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. (ALL NEV)

Thing to consider first and ponder on:

Peter rejected Christ 3x and Judas betrayed Christ 1x.

Both Peter and Judas had a devil/evil in their hearts

Both Peter and Judas repented of their sins.

Judas went to the extreme and killed himself as part his guilt and then repentance.

Someone like Judas was required to betray Jesus as part of execution of plan of salvation. John 17:12

agrees with me and speaks to this point.

(Joh 17:12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (NEV)

The disciples and ALL the followers in Christ before Pentecost were probationary, provisional or delayed believers. They were technically not genuine or ‘sealed’ believers yet. They could be all called transitionary unbelievers to believer status. The saving faith by God and his spirit was not given to men and women until Pentecost. John 17:17 implicitly speaks to this point.

(Joh 17:17) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Jesus is asking his Father to sanctify his provisional believers by sending the spirit of truth (that occurred at Pentecost). And just as importantly, this verse ends saying that God’s word inside the believer are his own internal expressions, thoughts and commands and is (the real) truth.

Judas was a provisional believer as the other 11 disciples, at that time before the day of Pentecost. Meaning they did not possess the true saving faith given by God yet, and that anyone of them could have rejected the gospel and Christ for any reason at any time and never receive salvation at Pentecost. They had no ‘staying’ spirit within them. They all could have been lost. Judas was the only one that flunked out of salvation school before graduation. He was an unbeliever that never receive salvation, he was lost! That is why Jesus said to his Father the words in John 17:12.

That is why Jesus said to his disciples in John 6:64 that some followers would leave in their own unbelief before salvation was given.

(Joh 6:64) But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

And Jesus said all believers or the saved are chosen by God his Father ,and NOT by Jesus, as Jesus chose his disciples (and it was before Pentecost).

(Joh 6:65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


There is no loss of salvation in these scriptures of John 6:70-71 or John 17:12.

I will do a commentary on John 15:1-10 next...…I'm doing this and the rest just to share with you and others of what the spirit says to me...


Bless you,

APAK

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You make some good points. Super-pope Matt Slick is a cult leader and his site is a snake pit. I stopped going there. If my posts don't get deleted over biased rule violations, they get buried under an avalanche of CARMinions.

2 Peter chapter 2 clearly refutes OSAS. Those who had been (past tense) bought had become false teachers and become lost.

One can look to Acts 15 also. The Apostles met at the church in Jerusalem to discuss the false teaching be spread that "Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved."

Acts 15:4-6 "when they (Paul & Barnabas) were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter."

During the meeting James speaks saying "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" Acts 15:24

So we find out that these false teachers came from among the church in Jerusalem.

 

[APAK]

2 Peter chapter 2 clearly refutes OSAS. Those who had been (past tense) bought had become false teachers and become lost.

One can look to Acts 15 also. The Apostles met at the church in Jerusalem to discuss the false teaching be spread that "Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved."

Acts 15:4-6 "when they (Paul & Barnabas) were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter."

During the meeting James speaks saying "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" Acts 15:24

So we find out that these false teachers came from among the church in Jerusalem.

Ernest:
You are being hasty in your reply and have already ' pull out your guns' without seeing what I have pointing at you. I will not fire back until I give you the opportunity to explain yourself bt at least starting with your 2 Peter Chapter 2, and expand on it as your opposing argument and I then I will give you mine...fair?

Thanks

Bless you,

APAK

 

[APAK]

@kepha31 ..more of my commentaries from your verses to share...John 15: 1-10

(Joh 15:1) I am the true vine and my Father is the husbandman.
(Joh 15:2) Every branch in me that carries no fruit, he prunes away; and every branch that carries fruit, he cleanses it, that it may bear more fruit.
(Joh 15:3) Already you are clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
(Joh 15:4) Abide in me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine, so neither can you, except you abide in me.
(Joh 15:5) I am the vine, you are the branches. He that abides in me and I in him, the same carries much fruit. For severed from me you can do nothing.
(Joh 15:6) If a man does not abide in me, he is thrown out as a branch and withers, and these are gathered and thrown into the fire, and they are burned.
(Joh 15:7) If you abide in me and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will and it shall be done to you.
(Joh 15:8) Herein is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so shall you be my disciples.
(Joh 15:9) Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Abide in my love.
(Joh 15:10) If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

This symbolic analogy of a vine and its branches, how believers are connected to Jesus and essentially the Father, is as much for the benefit of a future believer under grace, as it is for his disciples and followers still under the law. It is an encouragement to Jesus’ disciples, for them to stay in belief and then in their own strength or faith for salvation, until the day of Pentecost.

The disciples or even Jesus’ other followers under law could still theoretically walk away for Jesus unless God already credited them with righteousness. It seemed at least the disciples were already credited with salvation as Jesus tells them in verse 3 their works were (clean) holy. Judas’ work was unholy as he walked away as an unbeliever and died in unforgiven sin as far as I have read in scripture.

Verse 1 speaks of the vine, the original symbol of Israel.

Jesus represent the true spiritual Israel, the Israel that produces holy fruit and not like the unfruitful Israel of old that produced unholy or ‘bad’ fruit.

The Father created Jesus on earth to eternal life, to create a planted and deep rooted spiritual vine of believers under grace, the true Israel. Believers are connected/abides to/in Jesus by the faith (root) of the vine given by the spirit of God.

Verse 2 indicates that a believer as symbolically a branch, grafted in the vine, who does not grow in faith according to God’s standards of excellence, the spiritual gardener, prunes him/her by interrupting and cutting into his/her heart and mind for testing, disciplining, coaching etc.; to encourage growth and fruit.

The believer is never cut off or ever loses his/her salvation. Jesus is rooted deep in faith in his Father and the Father in him. They are inseparable, and Jesus is desiring in these versus the same for his followers.

We as branches and believers, and post Pentecost disciples and followers under grace, get our strength and faith to grow fruit from the root of the Father, after pruning or not. If we produce spiritual fruit by/with obedience/cooperation with the Father, the Father shall collect it as sanctified (holy) works to then allow us to increase in faith and produce more spiritual fruit/works. This is the on-going sanctification sate of salvation.

**In the sanctification on-going state of salvation, the believer works with the Father, so he/she can increase his/her strength/faith as holy fruit in/on ‘Jesus’ vine.’ We stay in the Father’s will to grow and be given more strength/faith. This point cannot be overemphasized.**

Verse 3: Jesus tells his disciples present (Judas was absent doing his dirty deed), as reassurance to them, that their spiritual works are holy to the Father. They are abiding in him, and his Father is delighted.

Verse 4 and 5: Jesus reminds his disciples to be in him and he in them to produce fruit that his Father expects. The disciple or believer can do nothing using their own faith as it will always fail in the end. Pentecost was awaiting.

Verse 6: Jesus says that someone not on the vine (an UNBELIEVER) is thrown as a branch off the true vine to wither and eventually thrown in the fire to be destroyed. Jesus never meant this was a believer that was cut off the vine as many want to see in this verse. Not happening! Matthew 3:10 speaks on this subject aswell.

Verse 7-10 Jesus says that a believer on the vine can ask and it will be done. To do all in love as they walk in love (abide) given by the Father through/in Jesus.

Lessons of this analogy are simple:

Be saved (abide in Jesus) to eternal life or die, with no future life.

A believer is expected to grow spiritually in strength and faith (fruit) given by the spirit of God and not of themselves, by doing the will (works) of the Father as Jesus did, else expect God to interfer in his/her life to ‘fix’ the ‘growth’ issue.

Finally, a believer with salvation never loses their salvation


Bless you,


APAK

 

[APAK]

Another simple rebuttal commentary of a believer's assurance of salvation.

(Joh 6:37) All that the Father gives me shall come to me, and him that comes to me I will in no way reject.
(Joh 6:38) For I came down from Heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me.
(Joh 6:39) And this is the will of Him that sent me, that of all which He has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
(Joh 6:40) For this is the will of my Father: That every one that sees the Son and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (ALL NEV)

This verse clearly states that those that have salvation come to Jesus and Jesus will never reject them. These have salvation because the Father gave these previous unbelievers the necessary saving faith and his own spirit.

These is no on-going salvation testing to Jesus for the possible loss of salvation for a believer. This is not the words of God and it’s mocking Jesus words, even here in verse 37. Believers that have salvation today will be raised up at the last day to the reunion and marriage supper. The Father guarantees it.

Bless all,

APAK

 

[APAK]

Commentary for a believer's assurance of salvation in John 6:39, 40 and 44 is already covered above in post #33....for John 6:37.
And it should be of no surprise as the context is the same for all these verses. These are one of clearest verses in John's writings. Why the invention of an on-going test for coming to Jesus ties to a believers salvation, once the Father wills them to Jesus. How can one debase and add new meaning to them is beyond me. Those that believe they really see a testing of salvation status for believers in these verses, I then have no choice but to seriously question their belief in Jesus, the son of God and their salvation state.

The kicker though is that folks need to know they are really saved. If not, these folks will continue to flounder and create all types of theories and statements to 'pull down' those that claim to have irreversible salvation; because of their insecurity and doubts in the gospel message of salvation.

Bless all,

APAK

 

[APAK]

Continuing on with another rebuttal commentary support for a believer's assurance of salvation...

(Joh 10:26) But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.
(Joh 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me.
(Joh 10:28) And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

If they left, by their so-called free-will as some unbelievers theorize, which is not the context and intention of verse 28 whatsoever, then they were never saved, period. They came over the fence their own way using the wide road of destruction and not by the narrow path, through the front narrow door as the Father delivered them to Jesus. They never possessed the saving faith and the spirit of regeneration living with us, period. They were clearly imposters and unbelievers.

The context of the verses here suggest that true believers never question their delivery by the Father into the hands of Jesus his son. Their lives are with Jesus and the Father. They are overjoyed. Why debase and add poisonous ideas to scripture is beyond me?

To entertain this useless idea of man’s pride and ‘free-will’ again, only fake believers think and would say something like ‘I can leave Jesus when I want to, because I can. I’m my own person.’ These are the words of an unsaved person, period.

Now a question, if ones sins, of any kind, is this self-willed statement stated above, valid? Sin does not make a believer lose their salvation, period. They never left Jesus because of sin. A believer’s sin account is always zero anyway in the Father’s eyes. The believer always wants to abide in Christ even though he/she is imperfect.

Bless all,

APAK

 

[Josiah]

MY VIEW ON 'ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED'


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thessalonians 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Revelation 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Galatians 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


I thus reject OSAS but I also embrace "security." I hold that BOTH Law and Gospel are true - equally and fully.

As so often in theology, we find there are "two sides of the coin." To ME, the approach is NOT to take all the Scriptures, subject them to our limited, fallable, sinful, human LOGIC and force them to "fit" and "make sense" to US. To ME, the approach is to accept both "sets" of scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them.

The approach, then, is in how to APPLY them rather than in how to force them to fit together according to our fallible, limited logic. Not in accepting one "set" and explaining away the other in the light of it.




MY view...


- Josiah (the newbie)


.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest:
You are being hasty in your reply and have already ' pull out your guns' without seeing what I have pointing at you. I will not fire back until I give you the opportunity to explain yourself bt at least starting with your 2 Peter Chapter 2, and expand on it as your opposing argument and I then I will give you mine...fair?

Thanks

Bless you,

APAK

My posts have been proving those apostates in 2 Peter 2 had once been saved for they had been "bought" (2 Peter 2:1), i.e., redeemed by the blood of Christ but later fell away into apostasy.

I also posted that a Calvinist on another forum denied "bought" has anything to do with salvation/redemption/blood of Christ.

Do you also deny that "bought" has to do with salvation/redemption?
If so, then give us your understanding of what 2 Peter 2:1 means in:
--what does the word 'bought' mean?
--who was it that was 'bought'?
--who is this "Master" that 'bought' them?
--for what purpose did this 'Master' buy them?
--why were these people denying this 'Master' had 'bought' them?

(The Calvinist on the other forum would not give his understanding of 2 Peter 2:1, he said had no obligation to do so)

 

[APAK]

MY VIEW ON 'ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED'


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thessalonians 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Revelation 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Galatians 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


I thus reject OSAS but I also embrace "security." I hold that BOTH Law and Gospel are true - equally and fully.

As so often in theology, we find there are "two sides of the coin." To ME, the approach is NOT to take all the Scriptures, subject them to our limited, fallable, sinful, human LOGIC and force them to "fit" and "make sense" to US. To ME, the approach is to accept both "sets" of scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them.

The approach, then, is in how to APPLY them rather than in how to force them to fit together according to our fallible, limited logic. Not in accepting one "set" and explaining away the other in the light of it.




MY view...


- Josiah (the newbie)


.

Josiah:

Thanks for your candor and I can tell you have been over this subject a few times already…

You have also given me an unmaterialized idea I currently have floating in my head on this subject…just did not write it out clearly.

It is ironic that you separate gospel and law. I was entertaining the idea of providing my continued commentaries in support of OSAS by using so-called non-OSAS verses with this separation of gospel and law in mind. I already had to do this in my recent commentaries anyway to explain a very vital point; and you have included it in some of your verses, whether you have realized it or not.

There are the three key points to make:

1. During the OT and into the NT, prior to the age of grace -under the LAW, until Pentecost, many folks were credited with justification/righteousness to salvation by their beliefs AND their OWN FAITH in God and /or Jesus and their works. I cannot see anyone arguing with that point.

2. Under the age of the gospel and GRACE however, after Pentecost, believers still had to belief in all the requirement of the gospel for salvation although they would not to USE their OWN FAITH to be saved anymore. The presence of the spirit of truth would prohibit this action. God’s grace would now triumph in the affairs of men's salvation.

3. The gift of God gave them this saving FAITH with the regeneration power of the spirit of God. This made all the difference. A MEASURE of FAITH is given and can NEVER BE REDUCED. We now use this starting measure of saving faith as our OWN to build on and grow on. I cannot repeat this too many times. It is so critical in understanding why OSAS is true. Then after initial salvation, spiritual growth, which means increasing spiritual strength and faith, is accomplished by God’s given faith and now it considered our OWN faith. Faith is now increased jointly by the interaction of the believer with God, by God, by the believer being obedient, and then the increase in FAITH is still GIVEN by God ALONE. It is built on the foundational given saving faith that can never be reduced or taken away. This has nothing to do with so-called free-will. The ‘will’ has no say in this given faith.

We produce spiritual holy fruit or works that increase our faith by God.

OSAS is a certainty and secure and is irreversible. One must first attain the saving faith from God’s spirit. This is the miracle and action of God alone that makes a believer officially saved. Now should the expression ‘grace of God’ to salvation be taken for granted? It really means ‘GRACE of God’….it is huge and incalculable.

As I said, one must first attain the saving faith from God’s spirit. Many folks try to use their own faith as under law to achieve it and fail, every time. And because of this they sense inside they are still uncertain and unsure about their own salvation. Then the anti-OSAS verses come spitting out in the dozen; all being deliberately misinterpreted to sooth and suit their own needs and feelings of insecurity.

(Eph 2:7) His intention was that throughout the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace have you been saved through faith, and that faith is not of yourselves, it is a gift from God.
(Eph 2:9) It is not of works, that no one should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God beforehand prepared that we should walk in them. (ALL NEV)


Bless you,



APAK

 

[Josiah]

Josiah: Thanks for your candor and I can tell you have been over this subject a few times already…

Thank you. I usually don't engage in the differences between Lutheran and Reformed (just rejoice that we are both passionately monergist) but yup, I reject TULIP.

It is ironic that you separate gospel and law.

All kinds of horrible things happen when they are blended, entangled, confused, watered down and merged....

I accept the Gospel as Gospel - fully. And when one is questioning God's grace, mercy and justification... when they are troubled by their own unworthiness - it applies.

I accept the Law as Law - fully. And when one is exercising "cheap grace" and thinking they can think, say and do WHATEVER cuz God gets off on forgiving, then they need to hear the Law.

BOTH are true. Fully. Problem comes when one is subjected to the other or viewed in light of the other, when man thinks God needs him to "connect the dots" and make all this "make sense."

2. Under the age of the gospel and GRACE however, after Pentecost, believers still had to belief in all the requirement of the gospel for salvation although they would not to USE their OWN FAITH to be saved anymore. The presence of the spirit of truth would prohibit this action. God’s grace would now triumph in the affairs of men's salvation.

The gift of God gave them this saving FAITH with the regeneration power of the spirit of God. This made all the difference. A MEASURE of FAITH is given and can NEVER BE REDUCED.

Not sure I follow you....

I believe that Jesus is the Savior (in the sense of narrow justification) - and thus I have NOTHING to do with this. And I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of spiritual life - and thus I have NOTHING to do with this. IMO, the gift of faith and life (justification, narrow) is wholly sufficient for this. Having MORE faith in narrow justification is irrelevant, the issue is not the quantity but the Object of faith.

Then after initial salvation, spiritual growth, which means increasing spiritual strength and faith, is accomplished by God’s given faith and now it considered our OWN faith. Faith is now increased jointly by the interaction of the believer with God, by God, by the believer being obedient, and then the increase in FAITH is still GIVEN by God ALONE. It is built on the foundational given saving faith that can never be reduced or taken away. This has nothing to do with so-called free-will. The ‘will’ has no say in this given faith.

We produce spiritual holy fruit or works that increase our faith by God.

Hum.... seems to me you've now switched topics to Sanctification - all that results from Justification, our LIVING the life that is now ours, our looking to the Holy Spirit (which we now have) for direction and strength, increasing in quest to live a "Christ-Like" life (a synergistic process). I've never heard of OSAS being applied to Sanctification....

OSAS is a certainty and secure and is irreversible

In part, that's the claim. I disagree with it. IMO, ONE of the problems with this invention of some later Reformed brothers is that it flies in the face of every one of the Law passages - making every one of them irrelevant and impossible.

I'd rather just affirm what God said. In Law and Gospel. And apply them appropriately.

Bless you

And also you!


I'm a newbie.... ENTIRELY unfamiliar with this site, the "dynamics" here, the moderation here, the people here. Which always makes me feel vulnerable (and more than a little uneasy). I've been involved WAY TOO MUCH at sites line this since I was 10 years old (and still very Catholic), I probably have 30-40K posts around, I was on staff at 3 sites. I know every such community (like every church) has its own unique character. And often unique personalities, lol. I'm stepping out.... seeing what happens... meeting folks... seeing if this site is a good fit for me. I appreciate the welcome.


- Josiah


.

 

[APAK]

Thank you. I usually don't engage in the differences between Lutheran and Reformed (just rejoice that we are both passionately monergist) but yup, I reject TULIP.





All kinds of horrible things happen when they are blended, entangled, confused, watered down and merged....

I accept the Gospel as Gospel - fully. And when one is questioning God's grace, mercy and justification... when they are troubled by their own unworthiness - it applies.

I accept the Law as Law - fully. And when one is exercising "cheap grace" and thinking they can think, say and do WHATEVER cuz God gets off on forgiving, then they need to hear the Law.

BOTH are true. Fully. Problem comes when one is subjected to the other or viewed in light of the other, when man thinks God needs him to "connect the dots" and make all this "make sense."





Not sure I follow you....

I believe that Jesus is the Savior (in the sense of narrow justification) - and thus I have NOTHING to do with this. And I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of spiritual life - and thus I have NOTHING to do with this. IMO, the gift of faith and life (justification, narrow) is wholly sufficient for this. Having MORE faith in narrow justification is irrelevant, the issue is not the quantity but the Object of faith.




Hum.... seems to me you've now switched topics to Sanctification - all that results from Justification, our LIVING the life that is now ours, our looking to the Holy Spirit (which we now have) for direction and strength, increasing in quest to live a "Christ-Like" life (a synergistic process). I've never heard of OSAS being applied to Sanctification....





In part, that's the claim. I disagree with it. IMO, ONE of the problems with this invention of some later Reformed brothers is that it flies in the face of every one of the Law passages - making every one of them irrelevant and impossible.

I'd rather just affirm what God said. In Law and Gospel. And apply them appropriately.





And also you!


I'm a newbie.... ENTIRELY unfamiliar with this site, the "dynamics" here, the moderation here, the people here. Which always makes me feel vulnerable (and more than a little uneasy). I've been involved WAY TOO MUCH at sites line this since I was 10 years old (and still very Catholic), I probably have 30-40K posts around, I was on staff at 3 sites. I know every such community (like every church) has its own unique character. And often unique personalities, lol. I'm stepping out.... seeing what happens... meeting folks... seeing if this site is a good fit for me. I appreciate the welcome.


- Josiah


.

Again your candor stands out...I used to be a Catholic many , many years ago, and you know, I cannot believe you have treated my post so fairly and not wearing your church badge. It is refreshing...

This site is one of the 'best' I've been on where there is much flexibility to preach, teach, listen whether you label yourself this or that, or like the trinity or not, or like OSAS or not....there are extremes that the staff will not tolerate. I've not been privy these limits being met by anyone that I'm aware of since being here from Feb 2018.

I predict you will be an asset to this site..go for it Josiah...

Yes, sanctification begins after the initial salvation state. the on-going holy state until glorification... there are 3 states of salvation, initial, on-going growth/conversion to the image of Christ and glorification...



APAK