Seven churches but only two witnesses

[Zao is life]

Disclaimer: This four-part post (four posts) is not telling anyone who the two witnesses are. It's merely sharing things I've seen in the Bible that may help us understand the subject of Revelation's two witnesses better because there seems to be definite links in all the scriptures listed in posts two, three and four.

A SUMMARY OF THE MESSAGES TO THE SEVEN CHURCHES

1. Do not forget your first love (Ephesus). Do the first works.

2. Do not become luke-warm (Laodicea). If you are Luke-warm, ask Jesus to send you a trial that will break your luke-warm state and make you return to Him (gold tried in the fire).

3. Keep your faith alive and do not let it die (Sardis). Though this is not said in the message to this church, it's reasonable to assume that the consequence of letting faith die is that there may be no oil in your lamps when He returns (Matthew 25:1-13).

4. Guard the Word of God in your hearts and follow Jesus only so that you do not believe or follow the false doctrines of false teachers and false prophets (Pergamos and Thyatira).

5. Do not ever do the evil practices that the false doctrines of false teachers and false prophets permit or even promote but which God hates (Pergamos and Thyatira).

Otherwise Jesus will remove your lampstand out of its place (Ephesus), fight His enemies in the churches with the sword of His mouth (Pergamos), throw them into great tribulation and kill them with death (Thyatira), and come upon them all as a thief - suddenly and when they are least expecting it (Sardis).

If you are none of these enemies of Jesus but are nevertheless Luke-warm, Jesus is calling you to repentance - otherwise He will vomit you out of His mouth.

(Ephesus: Revelation 2:4-5; Pergamos: Revelation 2:16; Thyatira: Revelation 2:22-23; Sardis: Revelation 3:3; Laodicea: Revelation 3:16-20.)

But if you are suffering under tribulation and poverty, or being thrown into prison and under great attack from Satan (Smyrna and Philadelphia) then remember that you are rich if you remain faithful unto death, keeping His Word and not denying His name, because you will not be hurt by the second death. And greater blessings than any eye has seen or ear heard (1 Corinthians 2:9) await you.

END OF PART ONE​

 

[Zao is life]

ALL THE FOLLOWING VERSES | PASSAGES OF SCRIPTURE ARE RELATED

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia. Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is coming; and from the seven spirits which are before His throne." Revelation 1:4

"And out of the throne came lightnings and thunderings and voices. And seven lamps of fire were burning in front of the throne, which are the seven spirits of God." Revelation 4:5

"Behold, a lampstand, all of it gold, and a bowl on its top, and its seven lamps on it, and twice seven pipes to the seven lamps on its top." Zechariah 4:2

" ..These seven are the eyes of the LORD which run to and fro through the whole earth." Zechariah 4:10b

"And I looked, and lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, amidst the elders, a Lamb stood, as if it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." Revelation 5:6

"For behold! I will bring forth My Servant the Branch.

For behold the stone that I have set before Joshua: On one stone are seven eyes.

Behold, I will engrave its engraving, says the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day." Zechariah 3:9

Jesus is called the chief Cornerstone in Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20; and 1 Peter 2:6.

END OF PART TWO​

 

[Zao is life]

"And you shall command the sons of Israel that they bring you pure olive oil beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always in the tabernacle of the congregation, outside the veil which is before the testimony.
Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD. It shall be a statute forever to their generations on behalf of the sons of Israel." Exodus 27:20-21

"And I said, I see, and behold, a lampstand, all of it gold, and a bowl on its top, and its seven lamps on it, and seven pipes to the seven lamps on its top;
and two olive trees beside it, one on the right of the bowl, and the other on the left of it.

This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the LORD of hosts." Zechariah 4:2-3 & 6

"And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth." Revelation 11:3-4

So we should bear in mind that the seven spirits of God are sent forth into all the earth, and these are the seven eyes of the Lamb.

Seven spirits of God, seven eyes, seven churches, seven lamps, seven seals of the scroll. Only the Lamb with the seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God, was found worthy to loosen the seven seals.

But there are only two olive trees, and only two lampstands in the identity given to us of who or what the two witnesses represent.

Haggai 1:1
"In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came by Haggai the prophet to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high Priest."

Zerubbabel (the governor of Judah) and Joshua (the high priest) foreshadow Christ.

"And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house. His hands shall also finish it; and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you." Zechariah 4:8-9

Jesus' hands laid the foundation of His house. His hands shall also finish it, and we shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent Him to us.

END OF PART THREE​

 

[Zao is life]

The two witnesses are two olive trees and two lampstsands. Lampstands represent churches in the Revelation - and only two of the seven churches were commended for their faithfulness without receiving any rebuke or warning of punishment: Smyrna, and Philadelphia (the rest were commended, but also both rebuked and warned):-

Revelation 11:7
"And when they (the two witnesses) complete their testimony, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war against them and will overcome them and kill them."

Smyrna: Revelation 2:10
"Do not at all fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the Devil will cast some of you into prison, so that you may be tried. And you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life."

Philadelphia: Revelation 3:10
"Because you have kept [G5083 τηρέω tēréō] the word of My patience, I also will keep [G5083 τηρέω tēréō] you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth."

In every other New Testament verse it's found, tēréō means to guard or watch over:-

John 17
6 I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept (tēréō) Your word.

11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep (tēréō) them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept (tēréō) them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept (tēréō), and none of them is lost, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

15 I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep (tēréō) them from the evil.

Note: Jesus did not ask the Father to remove His disciples from the world in order to protect them from tribulation - but he did ask the Father to guard them.

END​

 

[Truth7t7]

The two witnesses are two olive trees and two lampstsands. Lampstands represent churches in the Revelation - and only two of the seven churches were commended for their faithfulness without receiving any rebuke or warning of punishment: Smyrna, and Philadelphia (the rest were commended, but also both rebuked and warned):-

Revelation 11:7
"And when they (the two witnesses) complete their testimony, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war against them and will overcome them and kill them."

Smyrna: Revelation 2:10
"Do not at all fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the Devil will cast some of you into prison, so that you may be tried. And you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life."

Philadelphia: Revelation 3:10
"Because you have kept [G5083 τηρέω tēréō] the word of My patience, I also will keep [G5083 τηρέω tēréō] you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth."

In every other New Testament verse it's found, tēréō means to guard or watch over:-

John 17
6 I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept (tēréō) Your word.

11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep (tēréō) them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept (tēréō) them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept (tēréō), and none of them is lost, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

15 I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep (tēréō) them from the evil.

Note: Jesus did not ask the Father to remove His disciples from the world in order to protect them from tribulation - but he did ask the Father to guard them.

END​

I Disagree With Your Claims

The (Two Witnesses) will be literal prophets returned, that bring literal plagues upon this literal earth, they have physical bodies that die, that lay in a literal street, as a literal world watches in celebration of their deaths

You will closely note below, the two olive branches and golden pipes represent that seen in Revelation 5:8 & 15:5-8 below, the 7 golden (vials/pipes) in last plagues will be emptied upon the world through the (Two Witnesses) who have all power over the literal plagues seen in the Revelation

You will closely note these two anointed ones empty the golden oil out of "Themselves"

The "Golden Oil" represents the "Golden Vials" full of the seven last plagues

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
 
Revelation 5:8KJV
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 15:5-8KJV
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

You will closely note that the (Two Witnesses) stand before God of the earth in verse 4 below, also seen in Zechariah 4:14 above

You will closely note that the (Two Witnesses) have literal power over the literal plagues upon the world, they have physical bodies that die, and lay in a literal street, as a literal world watches in celebration

Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[ewq1938]

Seven churches but only two witnesses​

Half of the two witnesses are two churches.

 

[Zao is life]

I Disagree With Your Claims

I disagree with your above (false) claim. I never made in any claims.

I only listed scriptures which relate to one another. It's you making claims. But because I'm interested in what you have to say, I will read your claims. Just had to correct you in the way you start off with a false claim (and if your post starts with a false claim.. )

 

[Zao is life]

Half of the two witnesses are two churches.

I know that's what you believe. I'd prefer to know what's your view on who "the other half" (the two olive trees) represent.

Obviously, the scriptures I quoted do not point to the two churches being half the two witnesses. Unless I'm wrong (and I could be wrong), they do not point to the olive trees being people because the oil represents the Holy Spirit. In Zechariah 4 they also allude to Zerubbabel the governor and Joshua the high priest. Jesus fulfills both offices. It's not by might nor by power but by His Spirit.

 

[Zao is life]

I Disagree With Your Claims

The (Two Witnesses) will be literal prophets returned, that bring literal plagues upon this literal earth, they have physical bodies that die, that lay in a literal street, as a literal world watches in celebration of their deaths

You will closely note below, the two olive branches and golden pipes represent that seen in Revelation 5:8 & 15:5-8 below, the 7 golden (vials/pipes) in last plagues will be emptied upon the world through the (Two Witnesses) who have all power over the literal plagues seen in the Revelation

You will closely note these two anointed ones empty the golden oil out of "Themselves"

The "Golden Oil" represents the "Golden Vials" full of the seven last plagues

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
 
Revelation 5:8KJV
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 15:5-8KJV
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

You will closely note that the (Two Witnesses) stand before God of the earth in verse 4 below, also seen in Zechariah 4:14 above

You will closely note that the (Two Witnesses) have literal power over the literal plagues upon the world, they have physical bodies that die, and lay in a literal street, as a literal world watches in celebration

Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

You only mention the two olive trees - as though the two lampstands with the 14 lamps do not exist.

You had some valid points in your post, but now that you've explained who you believe the two olive branches represent, can you explain who you believe the two lampstands represent please?

 

[ewq1938]

I know that's what you believe. I'd prefer to know what's your view on who "the other half" (the two olive trees) represent.

The olive trees are two prophets, called anointed people in the OT. I don't believe them to be two people from the OT though.

 

[Zao is life]

The olive trees are two prophets, called anointed people in the OT. I don't believe them to be two people from the OT though.

Well you see now that's possible and makes sense. And the scriptures I listed in posts #2 and #3 actually do not negate your view. The scriptures regarding the olive trees in Zechariah 4 and the Revelation do not necessarily confirm what you are saying (unless you elaborate and it can be seen that they do in fact confirm it) - but they do not negate what you are saying either.

 

[Truth7t7]

The two witnesses are two olive trees and two lampstsands. Lampstands represent churches in the Revelation - and only two of the seven churches were commended for their faithfulness without receiving any rebuke or warning of punishment: Smyrna, and Philadelphia (the rest were commended, but also both rebuked and warned):-

Revelation 11:7
"And when they (the two witnesses) complete their testimony, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war against them and will overcome them and kill them."

Smyrna: Revelation 2:10
"Do not at all fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the Devil will cast some of you into prison, so that you may be tried. And you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life."

Philadelphia: Revelation 3:10
"Because you have kept [G5083 τηρέω tēréō] the word of My patience, I also will keep [G5083 τηρέω tēréō] you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth."

In every other New Testament verse it's found, tēréō means to guard or watch over:-

John 17
6 I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept (tēréō) Your word.

11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep (tēréō) them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept (tēréō) them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept (tēréō), and none of them is lost, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

15 I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep (tēréō) them from the evil.

Note: Jesus did not ask the Father to remove His disciples from the world in order to protect them from tribulation - but he did ask the Father to guard them.

END​

Ok And?

The candlesticks representing the Churches mentioned doesn't nullify the fact that the (Two Witnesses) will have literal physical bodies that are killed, and lay dead in a street upon this literal earth

 

[ewq1938]

Ok And?

The candlesticks representing the Churches mentioned doesn't nullify the fact that the (Two Witnesses) will have literal physical bodies that are killed, and lay dead in a street upon this literal earth

The "two witnesses" are not killed etc. Only the two prophets are.

 

[Keraz]

The 2 Witnesses of Revelation 11, will be 2 of the 144,000 witnesses, who will go out to all the world and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus.
Proved by Isaiah 66:19 and paralleled by Luke 10:1-10
Some of them will be killed, incl the 2 who preach in Jerusalem. But they will be resurrected by Jesus at His Return, Revelation 20:4, as the 2 in Jerusalem will be.

 

[Zao is life]

The 2 Witnesses of Revelation 11, will be 2 of the 144,000 witnesses, who will go out to all the world and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus.
Proved by Isaiah 66:19 and paralleled by Luke 10:1-10
Some of them will be killed, incl the 2 who preach in Jerusalem. But they will be resurrected by Jesus at His Return, Revelation 20:4, as the 2 in Jerusalem will be.

Neither passages say anything about the 144,000. You seem good at adding stuff into passages that isn't there.

 

[Zao is life]

Ok And?

The candlesticks representing the Churches mentioned doesn't nullify the fact that the (Two Witnesses) will have literal physical bodies that are killed, and lay dead in a street upon this literal earth

I didn't say it did. Two churches could include any amount of faithful saints represented by two churches.

 

[Truth7t7]

The olive trees are two prophets, called anointed people in the OT. I don't believe them to be two people from the OT though.

Your claim is false, the two prophets are the two witnesses described

 

[Truth7t7]

I didn't say it did. Two churches could include any amount of faithful saints represented by two churches.

The two witnesses, aka two prophets will have living physical bodies that die, and lay dead in a literal street on this earth, as a literal world watches in celebration of their deaths

You will closely note you avoid answering this claim like the plague

(Two Witnesses) with literal physical bodies that die, lay in a literal street on this earth, as a literal world watches in celebration

Your reformed preterist eschatology has no answer, "Silence"

 

[Zao is life]

The two witnesses, aka two prophets will have living physical bodies that die, and lay dead in a literal street on this earth, as a literal world watches in celebration of their deaths

You will closely note you avoid answering this claim like the plague

(Two Witnesses) with literal physical bodies that die, lay in a literal street on this earth, as a literal world watches in celebration

Your reformed preterist eschatology has no answer, "Silence"

Huh?

You won't recognize the two witnesses because they will be telling you that Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled in the 1st century.

I never avoided the FACT that they will all (all the witnesses - whether they are two or 2,000) will be killed by the beast, and their bodies will not be buried.

 

[Truth7t7]

Huh?

You won't recognize the two witnesses because they will be telling you that Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled in the 1st century.

I never avoided the FACT that they will all (all the witnesses - whether they are two or 2,000) will be killed by the beast, and their bodies will not be buried.

God's words state clearly (Two Witnesses) (Two Prophets) not 2,000 Witnesses or 2,000 Prophets

Do you believe the standard reformed teaching that the (Two Witnesses) represents the Church on earth?