Seven churches but only two witnesses

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Zao is life

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God's words state clearly (Two Witnesses) (Two Prophets) not 2,000 Witnesses or 2,000 Prophets

Do you believe the standard reformed teaching that the (Two Witnesses) represents the Church on earth?
OK two churches with one member each then.

@Truth7t7 PS: Your consistent attacks on Reformed Theology (wherever it may agree with what I'm saying) does not make me embarrassed in any way, shape or form. I get embarrassed for your part because you will even attempt to change the meaning of words in the dictionary to force a passage to fit your eschatology.

@Truth7t7 To answer your question: I don't know what "Standard Reformed Theology" teaches about the two witnesses. Neither do I care. I only care what the Bible is saying. But if their views be the same as mine in certain respects, I feel no embarrassment.
 
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Zao is life

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The "two witnesses" are not killed etc. Only the two prophets are.
I have a question for you: If the oil from the olive trees represent the Holy Spirit providing oil to the lampstands, then how can the two olive trees be a metaphor for two prophets?

I'm asking to see how you answer because I don't know what the Olive trees represent. But I'm fine with the two churches.
 

Truth7t7

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OK two churches with one member each then.

@Truth7t7 PS: Your cnsistent attacks on Reformed Theology (wherever it may agree with what I'm saying) does not make me embarrassed in any way, shape or form. I get embarrassed for your part because you will even attempt to change the meaning of words in the dictionary to force a passage to fit your eschatology.

@Truth7t7 To answer your question: I don't know what "Standard Reformed Theology" teaches about the two witnesses. Neither do I care. I only care what the Bible is saying. But if their views be the same as mine in certain respects, I feel no embarrassment.
Ok you have "Two" church members who have literal physical bodies that die, the (Two Witnesses) that are future?

It mentions these (Two Witnesses) will have power over plagues in Revelation 11:6, we see these golden vials in plagues in Revelation 16:1-11 below, will these be literal and future plagues?

Revelation 11:6KJV
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
 

ewq1938

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I have a question for you: If the oil from the olive trees represent the Holy Spirit providing oil to the lampstands, then how can the two olive trees be a metaphor for two prophets?


I don't believe the oil represents the HS.

I'm asking to see how you answer because I don't know what the Olive trees represent. But I'm fine with the two churches.

In the OT two olives trees feed an oil lamp it's oil and those are said to be two anointed people. It's perfectly sound to make the connection to two prophets in Rev connected to two candlesticks (oil lamps) which are two churches.
 

ewq1938

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Your claim is false, the two prophets are the two witnesses described

The bible disagrees with you.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
 
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Zao is life

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I don't believe the oil represents the HS.



In the OT two olives trees feed an oil lamp it's oil and those are said to be two anointed people. It's perfectly sound to make the connection to two prophets in Rev connected to two candlesticks (oil lamps) which are two churches.
Zurubbabel and Joshua would foreshadow them in that case, but it's "Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the LORD of hosts", so I'm not sure.

But thank you for answering my question, and please continue to say more about it if you have more that you can share regarding the reasons you interpret the olive trees that way. I'm turning this around in my head still, and have no conclusions engraved in stone.

@ewq1938 Do you have any ideas regarding the identity of the two churches? As in two congregations, or Jewish and Gentile churches, or .. (whatever)?
 
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Zao is life

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Ok you have "Two" church members who have literal physical bodies that die, the (Two Witnesses) that are future?
No, I was letting you have it your way. Two churches with one member each = two individuals, according to you.
 

Zao is life

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It mentions these (Two Witnesses) will have power over plagues in Revelation 11:6, we see these golden vials in plagues in Revelation 16:1-11 below, will these be literal and future plagues?

Revelation 11:6KJV
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Combining two separate topics into one post again? I never said anything about the actions of the two witnesses. Where it's literal, you will say it's symbolic, and fail to recognize the two witnesses, and where it's symbolic, you will say "this is not what they are literally doing", and fail to recognize the two witnesses.

Why?

Because you have already made up your mind between what is metaphorical and what is literal, to the smallest detail.

I have not.
 

ewq1938

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@ewq1938 Do you have any ideas regarding the identity of the two churches? As in two congregations, or Jewish and Gentile churches, or .. (whatever)?

Likely some modern version of the two churches that received no condemnation earlier in the book, Smyrna and Philadelphia. Rev doesn't name the two candlesticks so that is the best guess using what Rev does say regarding two unique churches. I believe they were real churches in the past but now are symbolic churches of believers of the same nature etc.
 
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Keraz

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Neither passages say anything about the 144,000. You seem good at adding stuff into passages that isn't there.
You seem bad for not seeing what is Written:

The Gospel, the good news of the coming Kingdom of Jesus, will be proclaimed to all the world by the 144,000 missionaries selected out of all the Christian people, by Jesus as He stands on Mt Zion. Revelation 14:1-7 THEY will do it, not the angel; used here as a metaphor for them. As was done in Luke 10:1-10
Two of them will preach and prophecy in Jerusalem for the final 3½ years.


Proved by Isaiah 66:18b-21 I am coming to gather peoples of every language, they will come to see My glory. I shall put a sign on [some of] them and they will go out to the nations, to the distant shores who have not yet heard of Me or seen My glory. They will declare My glory among all the nations.
My people will gather
[in the holy Land, seen by John in Revelation 7:9-14]….and some of them, I shall take for priests and Levites, says the Lord. Revelation 5:9-10

Note: that Jesus is revealed to His people only, soon after His Day of wrath. As is clearly stated in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 and the sequence of Revelation 6:12-17, followed by Revelation 7:1-14.

Rev 7: 15-17 refers to Eternity, after the Millennium. Paralleled by Revelation 21:4 He will wipe away every tear...…

Then comes Revelation 8:1, which is a time gap of 'about 10-15 years' earth time, when all the rest of the prophesied things will happen, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
 
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Zao is life

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Likely some modern version of the two churches that received no condemnation earlier in the book, Smyrna and Philadelphia. Rev doesn't name the two candlesticks so that is the best guess using what Rev does say regarding two unique churches. I believe they were real churches in the past but now are symbolic churches of believers of the same nature etc.
Yeah. The faithful remnant in the last 3.5 years who will "hear" the message of the two prophets.
 

Zao is life

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You seem bad at not seeing what is Written:

The Gospel, the good news of the coming Kingdom of Jesus, will be proclaimed to all the world by the 144,000 missionaries selected out of all the Christian people, by Jesus as He stands on Mt Zion. Revelation 14:1-7 THEY will do it, not the angel; used here as a metaphor for them. As was done in Luke 10:1-10
Two of them will preach and prophecy in Jerusalem for the final 3½ years.


Proved by Isaiah 66:18b-21 I am coming to gather peoples of every language, they will come to see My glory. I shall put a sign on [some of] them and they will go out to the nations, to the distant shores who have not yet heard of Me or seen My glory. They will declare My glory among all the nations.
My people will gather
[in the holy Land, seen by John in Revelation 7:9-14]….and some of them, I shall take for priests and Levites, says the Lord. Revelation 5:9-10

Note: that Jesus is revealed to His people only, soon after His Day of wrath. As is clearly stated in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 and the sequence of Revelation 6:12-17, followed by Revelation 7:1-14.

Rev 7: 15-17 refers to Eternity, after the Millennium. Paralleled by Revelation 21:4 He will wipe away every tear...…

Then comes Revelation 8:1, which is a time gap of 'about 10-15 years' earth time, when all the rest of the prophesied things will happen, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
Please Keras, in your fantasies about how prophecy gets fulfilled, save some for Jesus to fulfill, will ya?

Isaiah 66
18 For I know their works and their thoughts; it comes to gather all the nations and the tongues; and they will come and see My glory.
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those who escape from them to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, drawers of the bow; to Tubal, and Javan, to the far away coasts that have not heard My fame, nor have seen My glory.
And they will declare My glory among the nations.

Acts 2

1 And in the fulfilling of the day of Pentecost, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly a sound came out of the heaven as borne along by the rushing of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And tongues as of fire appeared to them, being distributed; and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled of the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And dwelling at Jerusalem there were Jews, devout men out of every nation under heaven.
6 But this sound occurring, the multitude came together and were confounded, because they each heard them speaking in his own dialect.
7 And they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, Behold, are not these who speak all Galileans?
8 And how do we each hear in our own dialect in which we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya around Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking the great things of God in our own languages.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying to one another, What does this mean?


Soon afterwards the apostles took the gospels to the nations, declaring His glory among the nations.

Isaiah 66

20 And they will bring all your brothers for an offering to the LORD out of all nations on horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and on mules, and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, as the sons of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Hebrews 12 (the only holy mountain):
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Isaiah 66
21 And I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites, says the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make stand before Me, says the LORD, so will your seed and your name stand.
23 And it will be, from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says the LORD.


Revelation 1
5 even from Jesus Christ the faithful Witness, the First-born from the dead and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
6 and made us kings and priests to God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.


Please Keras, in your fantasies about how prophecy gets fulfilled, save some for Jesus to fulfill, will ya?
 

Truth7t7

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Combining two separate topics into one post again? I never said anything about the actions of the two witnesses. Where it's literal, you will say it's symbolic, and fail to recognize the two witnesses, and where it's symbolic, you will say "this is not what they are literally doing", and fail to recognize the two witnesses.

Why?

Because you have already made up your mind between what is metaphorical and what is literal, to the smallest detail.

I have not.
A direct question unanswered, please give your current belief on the question, thanks

It mentions these (Two Witnesses) will have power over plagues in Revelation 11:6, we see these golden vials in plagues in Revelation 16:1-11 below, will these be literal and future plagues?

Revelation 11:6KJV
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
 

Truth7t7

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Please Keras, in your fantasies about how prophecy gets fulfilled, save some for Jesus to fulfill, will ya?

Isaiah 66
18 For I know their works and their thoughts; it comes to gather all the nations and the tongues; and they will come and see My glory.
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those who escape from them to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, drawers of the bow; to Tubal, and Javan, to the far away coasts that have not heard My fame, nor have seen My glory.
And they will declare My glory among the nations.

Acts 2

1 And in the fulfilling of the day of Pentecost, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly a sound came out of the heaven as borne along by the rushing of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And tongues as of fire appeared to them, being distributed; and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled of the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And dwelling at Jerusalem there were Jews, devout men out of every nation under heaven.
6 But this sound occurring, the multitude came together and were confounded, because they each heard them speaking in his own dialect.
7 And they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, Behold, are not these who speak all Galileans?
8 And how do we each hear in our own dialect in which we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya around Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking the great things of God in our own languages.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying to one another, What does this mean?


Soon afterwards the apostles took the gospels to the nations, declaring His glory among the nations.

Isaiah 66

20 And they will bring all your brothers for an offering to the LORD out of all nations on horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and on mules, and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, as the sons of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Hebrews 12 (the only holy mountain):
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Isaiah 66
21 And I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites, says the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make stand before Me, says the LORD, so will your seed and your name stand.
23 And it will be, from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says the LORD.


Revelation 1
5 even from Jesus Christ the faithful Witness, the First-born from the dead and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
6 and made us kings and priests to God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.


Please Keras, in your fantasies about how prophecy gets fulfilled, save some for Jesus to fulfill, will ya?
Isaiah 66 is the eternal kingdom in the NHNE

Isaiah 66:22-24KJV
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
 
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ewq1938

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Isaiah 66 is the eternal kingdom in the NHNE

Isaiah 66:22-24KJV
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Such a beautiful eternal kingdom, full of corpses to look at. Imagine the smell.
 

Zao is life

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Such a beautiful eternal kingdom, full of corpses to look at. Imagine the smell.
I agree with @Truth7t7, and I believe that statement is metaphorical, and refers to the same thing this refers to:

Revelation 14
9 And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.


Isaiah 66
24 And they will go out and see the dead bodies of the men who have sinned against Me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be put out; and they will be an object of disgust to all flesh.

I believe it's metaphorical, not literal: The memory of Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction by fire and brimstone we still have with us to this day, and we can see it in the vicinity of the Dead Sea. But we don't actually see and smell their dead bodies, or even know their names. But Apocalyptic scripture is full of statements that contain hyperbole mixed with metaphor in order that the reader / hearer understand the extent of the judgment or the calamity.
 
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ewq1938

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I agree with @Truth7t7, and I believe that statement is metaphorical, and refers to the same thing this refers to:

Revelation 14
9 And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Isaiah 66
24 And they will go out and see the dead bodies of the men who have sinned against Me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be put out; and they will be an object of disgust to all flesh.

I believe it's metaphorical. The memory of Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction by fire and brimstone we still have with us to this day, and we can see it in the vicinity of the Dead Sea.


The two passages don't match at all. There are no corpses to see regarding the LOF, not to mention it isn't even on the Earth.
 

Zao is life

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A direct question unanswered, please give your current belief on the question, thanks

It mentions these (Two Witnesses) will have power over plagues in Revelation 11:6, we see these golden vials in plagues in Revelation 16:1-11 below, will these be literal and future plagues?
THE TWO WITNESSES IN EGYPT:
TURNING THE WATERS TO BLOOD

Exo 7:19-20 "And the LORD spoke to Moses, Say to Aaron, Take your rod, and stretch out your hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their canals, and upon their pools, and upon every reservoir of their waters, that they may become blood.

And blood shall be throughout all the land of Egypt, both in wooden and in stone vessels."

"And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded. And he lifted up the rod and struck the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants. And all the waters in the river were turned to blood."

THE TWO WITNESSES OF THE REVELATION:
TURNING THE WATERS TO BLOOD

Rev 11:6 “These have authority to shut up the heaven, that it may not rain in the days of their prophecy. And they have authority over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.”

Revelation 16:4 "And the third angel poured out his vial on the rivers and fountains of waters, and they became blood."

METAPHOR:

John 7:38-39

He who believes on Me, as the Scripture has said, "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (But He spoke this about the Spirit, which they who believed on Him should receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Revelation 21:6
And He said to me, It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 14:7
saying with a great voice, Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Revelation 8:10
And the third angel sounded, and a great star burning like a lamp fell from the heaven, and it fell on the third part of the rivers and on the fountains of waters.

Revelation 16:4-6
And the third angel poured out his vial on the rivers and fountains of waters, and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Righteous is the Lord, who is, and was, and who will be, because You have judged these things,
6 since they have poured out the blood of the saints and prophets; and You gave them blood to drink, for they were deserving.


But @Truth7t7 says: Some of it is metaphor, but whenever I, Truth7t7 say its' literal, then it's literal - by court order!

So Truth7t7, you may (believe you) know whether or not the rivers and fountains of waters being turned to blood is literal, but I don't know. And you may (believe you) know whether or not "the third angel" is a metaphor for the two witnesses who are the ones at whose hands it is being done, but I don't know.

And if I don't know, then I don't know.
 
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