Seven Years of Tribulation,
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Why are you confused about this Bob? What are Messianic laymen teaching you about Daniel's 70 weeks, and the tribulation link he gave in Daniel 12:1?
Veteran in your opinion at what time does Michael stand up and deliver the people of the House of Jacob, including those from the grave?
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, all.
I keep trying to tell you all that the tribulation has been going on for close to 2,000 years, now! It's not a mere 7 years. That's the 70th seven of Dani'el 9:24-27 which is seven years long, not the "tribulation!" The "tribulation" as Yeshua` described it in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 corresponds to the Times of the Goyim (Gentiles) in which the Goyim overrun the streets of the Old City of Yerushalayim. Even today, the Old City is STILL divided into four quarters: The Jewish Quarter, the Arab Quarter, the Arminian Quarter, and the Christian Quarter are those four quarters.
Furthermore, it is a "tribulation" primarily on the JEWISH people, whether believers or not! The actual "pressure" put upon those people Yeshua` told them was not to be a constant pressure, under which they would have been annihilated. God gave them reprieves; He shortened their time of pressure among the years, so that they would survive the time of desolation.
It started in the past in the first century; it continues through today; and it will continue into the future until Yeshua` physically returns as promised. And, Yeshua` is the key to how much longer it will have to last:
Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
This is a quotation from Psalm 118:22-26:
Psalm 118:22-26
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.
KJV
The Hebrew phrase translated "Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD" is "Baruwkh ha'ba b'shem YHWH." And, "Baruwkh ha'ba" means "WELCOME" in Hebrew. In its plural form the phrase is found at the seaports and airports of Isra'el! It literally means, "Welcome, Comer in authority of YHWH!" And, Yeshua` is that Comer! When they welcome Him back, THEN they will see Him again! Furthermore, Psalm 118:26 tells us they will say these words of welcome "out of the house of the LORD" or "out of the Temple!" Thus, there must BE a Temple for them to welcome Him back as prophesied! And, don't make the mistake of thinking that these words were fulfilled at the Triumphal Entry on the first day of the Passion Week, Palm Sunday! Only the children and His disciples welcomed Him; the ones who were SUPPOSED to welcome Him - who had the AUTHORITY to welcome Him as God's Messiah, God's Anointed to be King - didn't welcome Him but demanded Yeshua` to rebuke His disciples! It could have been the fulfillment of Psalm 118:26. It SHOULD have been the fulfillment of Psalm 118:26, but it wasn't! Instead, it was postponed to a future date. THIS is the gap that YESHUA` put in the seventy sevens of Dani'el 9:24-27! HE left them desolate!
I keep trying to tell you all that the tribulation has been going on for close to 2,000 years, now! It's not a mere 7 years. That's the 70th seven of Dani'el 9:24-27 which is seven years long, not the "tribulation!" The "tribulation" as Yeshua` described it in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 corresponds to the Times of the Goyim (Gentiles) in which the Goyim overrun the streets of the Old City of Yerushalayim. Even today, the Old City is STILL divided into four quarters: The Jewish Quarter, the Arab Quarter, the Arminian Quarter, and the Christian Quarter are those four quarters.
Furthermore, it is a "tribulation" primarily on the JEWISH people, whether believers or not! The actual "pressure" put upon those people Yeshua` told them was not to be a constant pressure, under which they would have been annihilated. God gave them reprieves; He shortened their time of pressure among the years, so that they would survive the time of desolation.
It started in the past in the first century; it continues through today; and it will continue into the future until Yeshua` physically returns as promised. And, Yeshua` is the key to how much longer it will have to last:
Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
This is a quotation from Psalm 118:22-26:
Psalm 118:22-26
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.
KJV
The Hebrew phrase translated "Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD" is "Baruwkh ha'ba b'shem YHWH." And, "Baruwkh ha'ba" means "WELCOME" in Hebrew. In its plural form the phrase is found at the seaports and airports of Isra'el! It literally means, "Welcome, Comer in authority of YHWH!" And, Yeshua` is that Comer! When they welcome Him back, THEN they will see Him again! Furthermore, Psalm 118:26 tells us they will say these words of welcome "out of the house of the LORD" or "out of the Temple!" Thus, there must BE a Temple for them to welcome Him back as prophesied! And, don't make the mistake of thinking that these words were fulfilled at the Triumphal Entry on the first day of the Passion Week, Palm Sunday! Only the children and His disciples welcomed Him; the ones who were SUPPOSED to welcome Him - who had the AUTHORITY to welcome Him as God's Messiah, God's Anointed to be King - didn't welcome Him but demanded Yeshua` to rebuke His disciples! It could have been the fulfillment of Psalm 118:26. It SHOULD have been the fulfillment of Psalm 118:26, but it wasn't! Instead, it was postponed to a future date. THIS is the gap that YESHUA` put in the seventy sevens of Dani'el 9:24-27! HE left them desolate!
Very good point Saint.
At no time is this question addressed in the present interpretation, yet it is a mainstay of Dan 12.
I have been told that the timeline I have outlined above is not correct, but at least I address this issue as well as the seperation of the first seven and 62 weeks mentioned in the 70 week prophecy. Not only that but the math is pretty spot on when you understand the numbers I have shown above (see post #11).
Seven people (called Angels or messengers in Revelation) are born on the earth just like Jesus was. All are endowed with the Holy Spirit in the same fashion as Jesus, but unlike the first time with Christ, not all are good. Some will be good and some will be bad and the last one will be both and neither, and will be the Beast. Michael will also be one of these Seven Angels, most likely the second Angel, the Rider of the Red Horse.
It is the interaction between these guys that will trigger the events listed throughout the Bible that we call the Tribulation.
The whole event is a straight forward set of actions that will last 2300 days using the set of days I have showed you in post #11. The cleansing of the Temple will be when the two Witnesses rise after being dead 3 days at the end of this 2300 day period. 27 days after this (30 if you start the countdown at the death of the 2 Witnesses) the Beast and his forces attack Jerusalem in desperation, for his cover will be blown at the rising of the Witnesses and during the attack, after he has half taken the city, Jesus shows up, rejuvenating a beaten Michael and turning the tables. 45 days after this New Jerusalem decends to Earth and the 1000 year millenium begins. This is all per Dan 12's prediction about the 1290 days (which is the 1260 days of Rev plus 30 more till the beast attacks Jerusalem and then the 1335 day date it speaks of in the 'Blessed are those who wait and come to the 1335th day part)
These events are fortold in Zech 11 in the prophecy of the Two Staves, the first of Beauty being Jesus and the Second of Strength (or Bands as the KJV calls it) being Michael and in Ezekiel 9 in the prophecy of the Six Men who come from the way of the north (these being the first 6 Angels of Revelation, it does not include the Seventh who is the Beast), with Michael again in the role of the One Clothed in Linen with a Writers Inkhorn at his side.
At no time is this question addressed in the present interpretation, yet it is a mainstay of Dan 12.
I have been told that the timeline I have outlined above is not correct, but at least I address this issue as well as the seperation of the first seven and 62 weeks mentioned in the 70 week prophecy. Not only that but the math is pretty spot on when you understand the numbers I have shown above (see post #11).
Seven people (called Angels or messengers in Revelation) are born on the earth just like Jesus was. All are endowed with the Holy Spirit in the same fashion as Jesus, but unlike the first time with Christ, not all are good. Some will be good and some will be bad and the last one will be both and neither, and will be the Beast. Michael will also be one of these Seven Angels, most likely the second Angel, the Rider of the Red Horse.
It is the interaction between these guys that will trigger the events listed throughout the Bible that we call the Tribulation.
The whole event is a straight forward set of actions that will last 2300 days using the set of days I have showed you in post #11. The cleansing of the Temple will be when the two Witnesses rise after being dead 3 days at the end of this 2300 day period. 27 days after this (30 if you start the countdown at the death of the 2 Witnesses) the Beast and his forces attack Jerusalem in desperation, for his cover will be blown at the rising of the Witnesses and during the attack, after he has half taken the city, Jesus shows up, rejuvenating a beaten Michael and turning the tables. 45 days after this New Jerusalem decends to Earth and the 1000 year millenium begins. This is all per Dan 12's prediction about the 1290 days (which is the 1260 days of Rev plus 30 more till the beast attacks Jerusalem and then the 1335 day date it speaks of in the 'Blessed are those who wait and come to the 1335th day part)
These events are fortold in Zech 11 in the prophecy of the Two Staves, the first of Beauty being Jesus and the Second of Strength (or Bands as the KJV calls it) being Michael and in Ezekiel 9 in the prophecy of the Six Men who come from the way of the north (these being the first 6 Angels of Revelation, it does not include the Seventh who is the Beast), with Michael again in the role of the One Clothed in Linen with a Writers Inkhorn at his side.
LambOfChrist
New Member
JosyWales
Why do you say the 2300 days is related to the time line in this way? I will have to go back and study your timeline but for starters the 2300 days begins at the start of the covenant in Daniel 11. It ends when the abomination is set up and the 2 witnesses begin their 42 month ministry. The courtyard is given over to the gentiles to be trodden under foot. The 1290 days starts when the abomination is set up and ends when Michael stands up. Please read it again. It is tricky but this is the only way it makes sense and it allows all other scripture to fall into place.
The rapture then is after the 1290 days where the 2 witnesses stand up and the last, great, seventh trumpet sounds.
Woe, I just read it and all I can say is that is ridiculous. Sorry man, you left out the reasoning for the 2300 days altogether. You don’t understand that Jesus was crucified 483 years after the command was given to rebuild Jerusalem. You have taken random numbers from the bible and mixed them up till they added up. The word of God will not pass away until all is fulfilled just as it is written.
When you study Daniel understand that Daniel 9:27 says in the midst of the seven and not in the middle. Being in the midst allows for the 2300 days that are clearly written in Daniel 11 if you can cast down preconceived teaching.
Look up Laban and Jacob and the daughters. The word week was used there and then was given as 7 years.
The rapture then is after the 1290 days where the 2 witnesses stand up and the last, great, seventh trumpet sounds.
Why do you say the 2300 days is related to the time line in this way? I will have to go back and study your timeline but for starters the 2300 days begins at the start of the covenant in Daniel 11. It ends when the abomination is set up and the 2 witnesses begin their 42 month ministry. The courtyard is given over to the gentiles to be trodden under foot. The 1290 days starts when the abomination is set up and ends when Michael stands up. Please read it again. It is tricky but this is the only way it makes sense and it allows all other scripture to fall into place.
The rapture then is after the 1290 days where the 2 witnesses stand up and the last, great, seventh trumpet sounds.
Woe, I just read it and all I can say is that is ridiculous. Sorry man, you left out the reasoning for the 2300 days altogether. You don’t understand that Jesus was crucified 483 years after the command was given to rebuild Jerusalem. You have taken random numbers from the bible and mixed them up till they added up. The word of God will not pass away until all is fulfilled just as it is written.
When you study Daniel understand that Daniel 9:27 says in the midst of the seven and not in the middle. Being in the midst allows for the 2300 days that are clearly written in Daniel 11 if you can cast down preconceived teaching.
Look up Laban and Jacob and the daughters. The word week was used there and then was given as 7 years.
The rapture then is after the 1290 days where the 2 witnesses stand up and the last, great, seventh trumpet sounds.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, all.
Please, guys, STOP USING A FULFILLED PROPHECY AS THOUGH IT WAS UNFULFILLED! Dani'el 11 is OUT OF BOUNDS! It was fulfilled from the time that the last four Persian kings reigned, through Alexander the Great, through the Ptolemaic and Seleucian Empires, through Antiochus IV Epiphanes and Judas Maccabees and his brothers, all the way to the beginnings of Rome and Caesar Augustus and Herod the Great! Close the book on Dani'el 11; it is FULFILLED!
Please, guys, STOP USING A FULFILLED PROPHECY AS THOUGH IT WAS UNFULFILLED! Dani'el 11 is OUT OF BOUNDS! It was fulfilled from the time that the last four Persian kings reigned, through Alexander the Great, through the Ptolemaic and Seleucian Empires, through Antiochus IV Epiphanes and Judas Maccabees and his brothers, all the way to the beginnings of Rome and Caesar Augustus and Herod the Great! Close the book on Dani'el 11; it is FULFILLED!
Retrobyter, I must disagree. The only parts of Dan. 11 that are fulfilled is through vs. 20 which is Antiochus Eppiphanes. Vs. 21 to the end is an obvious prophecy of the a/c. Could parts of these verses seemed to have been fulfilled at one time or another? Sure, history repeats itself, just like the story of Titus in AD 70 is similar to the one about Antiochus Eppiphanes and the future a/c will have similarities as well, but as prophesied in it's entirety, nope, not fulfilled yet.
I know what I am showing you is something you have probably never considered before and initially it makes it hard to see, but if you consider it, you will find it correct.
Daniel is speaking of two prophecies in one. First, it is telling Daniel about events that fit into his current 70 year prophecy in which he is living and was prophesied by Jeremiah in Jer 25:11-12 and Jer 29:10+ (which is why Daniel made the prayer in the first place as he plainly states in Dan 9:2) and, second, about a parallel event that will occur far into Daniels future, one that will echo the events of his day but be much more intense, i.e. the time we know today as the Tribulation.
What I am trying to show you is that the times of Daniel were a blueprint of the times of the Tribulation and will follow the pattern established in Daniel. In fact, Daniel itself parallels Revelation explicitly. In fact, if you look carefully, you can see how Daniel 1-6 reflects the natures of the first 6 Angels of Revelation and give clues to their actions as well. There is a break in Daniel 7-9 in which this duel pattern is explained in more detail and Daniel 10-12 parallels the Seventh Angel and the final events of both Daniels and our Tribulations respectively.
In Daniel 9, Daniel is asking about the prophecy of the 70 years, and instead, God, through Gabriel, begins to tell him of a future 70 week period and says it in such a way as to indicate they are both synonymous. Everyone seems to have completely overlooked this fact.
LambofChrist and Retrobyter, this is the basis of why what you are thinking the way you do in this matter. You are not realizing that Daniel is not only about the 70 year prophecy of Jeremiah that Daniel lives and is so concerned about, but also about a parallel 70 week prophecy that will occur far into his future (our present) which is documented more fully and in complete harmony with Daniel in Revelations.
Daniel is speaking of two prophecies in one. First, it is telling Daniel about events that fit into his current 70 year prophecy in which he is living and was prophesied by Jeremiah in Jer 25:11-12 and Jer 29:10+ (which is why Daniel made the prayer in the first place as he plainly states in Dan 9:2) and, second, about a parallel event that will occur far into Daniels future, one that will echo the events of his day but be much more intense, i.e. the time we know today as the Tribulation.
What I am trying to show you is that the times of Daniel were a blueprint of the times of the Tribulation and will follow the pattern established in Daniel. In fact, Daniel itself parallels Revelation explicitly. In fact, if you look carefully, you can see how Daniel 1-6 reflects the natures of the first 6 Angels of Revelation and give clues to their actions as well. There is a break in Daniel 7-9 in which this duel pattern is explained in more detail and Daniel 10-12 parallels the Seventh Angel and the final events of both Daniels and our Tribulations respectively.
In Daniel 9, Daniel is asking about the prophecy of the 70 years, and instead, God, through Gabriel, begins to tell him of a future 70 week period and says it in such a way as to indicate they are both synonymous. Everyone seems to have completely overlooked this fact.
LambofChrist and Retrobyter, this is the basis of why what you are thinking the way you do in this matter. You are not realizing that Daniel is not only about the 70 year prophecy of Jeremiah that Daniel lives and is so concerned about, but also about a parallel 70 week prophecy that will occur far into his future (our present) which is documented more fully and in complete harmony with Daniel in Revelations.
Michael standing up is related to the ending of the time of withholding per Dan.10 and 2 Thess.2:6-7. That's Rev.12:7-9 timing. The time of trouble then follows which is the "great tribulation" time Jesus mentioned in His Olivet Discourse. Then the time of deliverance of Dan.12:1 is at the end of that tribulation. The Dan.12:1 verse is a condensed summary.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Trekson.
No, that's not it. History does NOT repeat itself in the sense that it fulfills a prophecy more than once! As I've said before in other threads, that belief just adds to confusion about the prophecy. God's prophecies must have ONE, conclusive fulfillment or they are MEANINGLESS, no better than Jeanne Dixon's predictions! And, the rest of Dani'el 11 is easily seen to be fulfilled by the exploits of Herod the Great, the king of Isra'el in the first century B.C.
It's not my website, but one can see how Herod the Great fulfilled those prophecies at http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Daniel11. We don't need some "Antichrist" figure in the future to fulfill these verses; they've already been fulfilled!
No, that's not it. History does NOT repeat itself in the sense that it fulfills a prophecy more than once! As I've said before in other threads, that belief just adds to confusion about the prophecy. God's prophecies must have ONE, conclusive fulfillment or they are MEANINGLESS, no better than Jeanne Dixon's predictions! And, the rest of Dani'el 11 is easily seen to be fulfilled by the exploits of Herod the Great, the king of Isra'el in the first century B.C.
It's not my website, but one can see how Herod the Great fulfilled those prophecies at http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Daniel11. We don't need some "Antichrist" figure in the future to fulfill these verses; they've already been fulfilled!
Then good luck trying to make Christ's Revelation fit all the way back to past history of events that took place in Daniel's days, which some Preterists try to do, and have to go way out... on a limb to try and do it.
Imagine if Christ had really given everything in His Book of Revelation about past history in Daniel's days!
Here is a step by step of the historical fulfillment of Danial;
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/prophecy/daniel11.php
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/prophecy/daniel11.php
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
Don't need it. Christ already foretold us what to expect for the end in our days by His Olivet Discourse, and His Book of Revelation through John, and His Revelation expounds upon the endtime prophecies in the Book of Daniel which were not... fulfilled in Daniel's days, nor by the Romans in 70 A.D., including the "abomination of desolation" event.
I am willing to bet that most of you folks don’t even realize that the first mention of the 2 Witnesses of Revelations are in Zechariah 4 and dwells on them for the whole chapter just as you also don’t realize that the first mention of the colored horses that the first 4 Angels of Revelation ride are in Zech 1(which I may speak of later). You must incorporate these prophesies into your interpretation or you fail.
Zec 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all [of] gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which [are] upon the top thereof:
Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right [side] of the bowl, and the other upon the left [side] thereof.
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What [be these] two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden [oil] out of themselves?
4:14 Then said he, These [are] the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
As we know, Revelation also speaks of these two:
Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth
Exact Match.
Now we have the fact that the two Witnesses not only travel around the earth doing great works, but they also stand by and feed ‘Golden Oil’ which is the Holy Energy’ of God into someone known as 'a candlestick topped with a golden bowl’, which in turn feeds 7 'lamps' with this same energy.
The candlestick with the Golden Bowl is Michael and the seven lamps are the 7 Thunders of Revelation as per these passages in Revelation that people also ignore, because they can’t make it fit into their interpretation.
Rev 10:1 ¶ And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire
This is Michael as he is spiritually. The rainbow upon his head represents his passage through the 70 weeks and God’s blessing upon him as be begins the fight with the Beast for the next 42 month similar to the blessing God gave Noah to show that God was with him.
Rev 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and [his] left [foot] on the earth,
Rev 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as [when] a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
The 7 thunders are the 7 lamps of Zech 4.
All this ties together into a very coherent whole that fits the timeline I have previously shown you perfectly.
Zec 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all [of] gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which [are] upon the top thereof:
Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right [side] of the bowl, and the other upon the left [side] thereof.
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What [be these] two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden [oil] out of themselves?
4:14 Then said he, These [are] the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
As we know, Revelation also speaks of these two:
Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth
Exact Match.
Now we have the fact that the two Witnesses not only travel around the earth doing great works, but they also stand by and feed ‘Golden Oil’ which is the Holy Energy’ of God into someone known as 'a candlestick topped with a golden bowl’, which in turn feeds 7 'lamps' with this same energy.
The candlestick with the Golden Bowl is Michael and the seven lamps are the 7 Thunders of Revelation as per these passages in Revelation that people also ignore, because they can’t make it fit into their interpretation.
Rev 10:1 ¶ And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire
This is Michael as he is spiritually. The rainbow upon his head represents his passage through the 70 weeks and God’s blessing upon him as be begins the fight with the Beast for the next 42 month similar to the blessing God gave Noah to show that God was with him.
Rev 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and [his] left [foot] on the earth,
Rev 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as [when] a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
The 7 thunders are the 7 lamps of Zech 4.
All this ties together into a very coherent whole that fits the timeline I have previously shown you perfectly.
ISAIAH 43:1 But now, thus says the LORD, who created you, O Jacob, and He who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; You are Mine. . . ." 10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from Me there is no savior. 12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed — I, and not some foreign god among you. You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God." (NIV)
ISAIAH 44:1 But now hear, O Jacob My servant, Israel whom I have chosen! 2 Thus says the LORD who made you, who formed you in the womb and will help you: Do not fear, O Jacob My servant, Jeshurun whom I have chosen. 3 For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour My spirit upon your descendants, and My blessing on your offspring. 4 They shall spring up like a green tamarisk, like willows by flowing streams. 5 This one will say, "I am the LORD's," another will be called by the name of Jacob, yet another will write on the hand, "The LORD's," and adopt the name of Israel. 6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; besides Me there is no god. 7 Who is like Me? Let them proclaim it, let them declare and set it forth before me. Who has announced from of old the things to come? Let them tell us what is yet to be. 8 Do not fear, or be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? You are my witnesses! Is there any god besides Me? There is no other rock; I know not one. (NRSV)
JEREMIAH 11:16 The LORD called your name, Green Olive Tree, lovely and of good fruit. With the noise of a great tumult He has kindled fire on it, and its branches are broken. 17 For the LORD of hosts, who planted you, has pronounced doom against you for the evil of the House of Israel and of the House of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke Me to anger in offering incense to Baal." (NKJV)
So Josy have you identified the two witnesses yet?
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
ISAIAH 44:1 But now hear, O Jacob My servant, Israel whom I have chosen! 2 Thus says the LORD who made you, who formed you in the womb and will help you: Do not fear, O Jacob My servant, Jeshurun whom I have chosen. 3 For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour My spirit upon your descendants, and My blessing on your offspring. 4 They shall spring up like a green tamarisk, like willows by flowing streams. 5 This one will say, "I am the LORD's," another will be called by the name of Jacob, yet another will write on the hand, "The LORD's," and adopt the name of Israel. 6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; besides Me there is no god. 7 Who is like Me? Let them proclaim it, let them declare and set it forth before me. Who has announced from of old the things to come? Let them tell us what is yet to be. 8 Do not fear, or be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? You are my witnesses! Is there any god besides Me? There is no other rock; I know not one. (NRSV)
JEREMIAH 11:16 The LORD called your name, Green Olive Tree, lovely and of good fruit. With the noise of a great tumult He has kindled fire on it, and its branches are broken. 17 For the LORD of hosts, who planted you, has pronounced doom against you for the evil of the House of Israel and of the House of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke Me to anger in offering incense to Baal." (NKJV)
So Josy have you identified the two witnesses yet?
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
Well, Saint, that’s a good question. I don’t have them identified by name yet, but I do know a few things about them and I have some ideas that will help identify them when they make themselves known (although that might not be too difficult under any circumstance, considering their actions).
Obviously I believe them to be to real people, two individuals who will, along with others of the time, be endowed with great spiritual Energy. I guess that is a no brainer. I believe as well that the part in Revelation 10:2 where the strong angel who is Michael puts his right foot on the Earth and his left on the Sea, it is these 2 witnesses who are being referred to, especially in light of the prophecy of Zech 4 that states clearly that they will support him. Also, the Earth and the Sea in this prophesy are used to describe the natures of these two witnesses and may even be pointing to where they come from among the Seven Angels. I could go into a discourse about my belief that the Seven Days of Creation parallel the Seven Angels of Revelation, but that would be sort of off track at this time, although it might actually be related to the interpretation of these verses.
I also believe that these two Witnesses will be associated with the 7 angels in some way, whether they are two of the Seven Angels themselves or of their associates, who are also known as the Angels ‘Churches’ in Revelation.
Other than that, I am keeping my eyes open since I don’t think it possible to be any more specific than that at this time.
Obviously I believe them to be to real people, two individuals who will, along with others of the time, be endowed with great spiritual Energy. I guess that is a no brainer. I believe as well that the part in Revelation 10:2 where the strong angel who is Michael puts his right foot on the Earth and his left on the Sea, it is these 2 witnesses who are being referred to, especially in light of the prophecy of Zech 4 that states clearly that they will support him. Also, the Earth and the Sea in this prophesy are used to describe the natures of these two witnesses and may even be pointing to where they come from among the Seven Angels. I could go into a discourse about my belief that the Seven Days of Creation parallel the Seven Angels of Revelation, but that would be sort of off track at this time, although it might actually be related to the interpretation of these verses.
I also believe that these two Witnesses will be associated with the 7 angels in some way, whether they are two of the Seven Angels themselves or of their associates, who are also known as the Angels ‘Churches’ in Revelation.
Other than that, I am keeping my eyes open since I don’t think it possible to be any more specific than that at this time.
Did you ever stop to think that it could be as simple as two religions; Judaism and Christianity which testify of Yahweh and Yeshua His Son to the world? Judaism form Judah and Christianity from the dispersal of the House of Ephraim into the world.
The world discounts Judah because for the most part they have not accepted Yeshua as Messiah but Judah still maintains a covenant relationship with Yahweh and they do testify Him as being the only true Elohim.
Theses religions have testified and been a witness of these things for the past 2000 years; where would the world be today without them?
Does not Yahweh call them His witnesses?
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
The world discounts Judah because for the most part they have not accepted Yeshua as Messiah but Judah still maintains a covenant relationship with Yahweh and they do testify Him as being the only true Elohim.
Theses religions have testified and been a witness of these things for the past 2000 years; where would the world be today without them?
Does not Yahweh call them His witnesses?
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
I thought that might be where you are going and no, I dont think thats possible. The basis of the interpretaton I have come to understand as the truth is that all these people are real and are exactly what the bible says they are. These people and events, though shrowded by symbolistic discriptions (which are all found discribed in earlier parts of the bible) are as solid as you or I.
In other words, even though there is much symbolism in the discriptions, those that it speaks of are all real people. The Seven Angles are going to be as real as Jesus was. The 1st Angel in Revelation is a real person who does exactly what it says he does, the Second Angel is a real person and so on. They will be men born on the earth and endowed with the Holy Spirit in quantity at the proper time. The woman of who is rescued and is protected by the saints is a real woman and the child that Michael fights the devil over is a real child, flesh and blood.
It is a bad mistake to think these are otherwise.
In other words, even though there is much symbolism in the discriptions, those that it speaks of are all real people. The Seven Angles are going to be as real as Jesus was. The 1st Angel in Revelation is a real person who does exactly what it says he does, the Second Angel is a real person and so on. They will be men born on the earth and endowed with the Holy Spirit in quantity at the proper time. The woman of who is rescued and is protected by the saints is a real woman and the child that Michael fights the devil over is a real child, flesh and blood.
It is a bad mistake to think these are otherwise.
Josy, are you talking about the seven angels of Rev 8:2; are these the ones you are calling real people? Maybe I'm misunderstand you so set me straight; in your opinion are these spiritual beings or are the flesh and blood?
Much of Revelation is symbolic by the way, it is not all literal.
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
Much of Revelation is symbolic by the way, it is not all literal.
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
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