Shall we discuss this?

[Taken]

Your wrong premise created 2 bad posts.

Clearly to you specific, a waste of my time,.

You said Jesus was incarnate and embodied.

Clearly you are not keen enough (even after being told) to quote another, instead of you speaking for them.

The story of God and Christ is God was inside Christ, reconciling the world to Himself...2 Cor 5:19

Not God WAS Christ....

Clearly you not not keen enough to know...
It is both!

All verses must harmonize with this theme.

No. Scripture harmonizes with Scripture...not some theme by your understanding.

 

[101G]

The Fire / Pit IS in the Earth's center.
The Fire IS Everlasting.
Fallen Spirits... are cast into the Fire...
Forever and Ever Those Spirits Are in Torments...Spirits never Die.
Their Forever Torment IS Separation from God.( and since Alive, fully aware of their Separation from God, and no release from that pit).
Since A Spirit, a man IN Christ...is At REST/PEACE with Christ...
A Spirit in the Fire pit Forever Shall Never Have REST/Peace<--- that is their eternal Torment.

Living souls IN hell, Unsaved, are experiencing a separation from God. They ARE Living souls, out of Dead Bodies, Having the same "senses" as when in their living Bodies...they can, hear, see, taste, talk, touch...but they are not ON the Earth, enjoying what we see ON the Earth, seeing flowers, sky, beautiful things, smelling pleasant smells, talking pleasant things, tasting pleasant things, feeling/touching pleasant things....they are in discomfort, hot, thirsty, smell the putrid smell of sulfur, can not have a pleasant talk with God, NOT with God...and no Hope to Be with Him in Rest and Peace...<--- that is Their Torment.

First thanks for the reply, second how can someone be Tormented without a JUDGMENT? is not the Judgment last?

and as for the dead, is not Ecclesiastes 9:5 correct? "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." so how can the dead Having the same "senses" when alive?

Now I agree with some spirits that are in Prison, for scripture clearly defins this, 1 Peter 3:19 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"
1 Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Will they be, after Judgement cast into the Everlasting Fire pit? Yes
To clarify...that is After their Judgement.
Their Body is raised from it Dead state.
Their soul returns to its Body (since a Body can not come back to Life Without a living soul returning to its body)...
The Body (and Soul) stands in Judgement.

will this contradict what you said before, concering the soul and dead bodies. but the final Judgment is the Lake of fire the final judgment.
any soul that returns to a resurrected body is .... alive. but not in a body with spirit it's unconscious as Ecclesiastes 9:5 correctly states.
it's the here and now, Matthew 18:32 "Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:"
Matthew 18:33 "Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?"
Matthew 18:34 "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him."
Matthew 18:35 "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."

A good read on this is in Matthews 11:23 & 24, Luke chapter 17 and a few more places, and examine the witness there.

but Amos 4:10 makes it clear, "I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD."
Amos 4:11 "I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD." (BINGO, the BURNING)
Amos 4:12 "Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel."

Amos has spelled it out for us clear as day.

and on a NATIONAL SCALE, back to Amos 4:10 & 11 "I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD."
Amos 4:11 "I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD."

"I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt" . TODAY'S scripture, Revelation 16:8 "And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire."
Revelation 16:9 "And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory."
Revelation 16:10 "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,"

one might want to make a cross reference of Amos 4:10 & 11 and Revelation 16:8-10.

the prophet and king David said it best, Psalms 51:7 "Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow."
Psalms 51:8 "Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice."
Psalms 51:9 "Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities."
Psalms 51:10 "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me."
Psalms 51:11 "Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me."


I believe the torment is just what our Lord Jesus stated in Matthew 18:35, mental and phyicially defined, or shown. for a good example of this, look on the saved side. if we do wrong toward our brothers and sisters, and do not repent, excuse my speach, for what I'm about to say, I'm not
cursing, but the Holy Ghost/Spirit will worry the HELL out of you untill you get it right with your brother or sister, untill then you will catch "HELL" until you do. I'm just being plain and simple. for the Lord Jesus said, Matthew 18:35 "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." what he means is you have an ought with your brother, lay you gift at the altar and get it right with your brother or sister FIRST, then come back to God and offer your gift.

PICJAG.

 

[Renniks]

Yes, according to Jesus in John 4:24, God is a Spirit, not flesh/Spirit combo.

It is impossible for Jesus to accept he was wrong in that statement.

God is Spirit correct. That's why we call him the Holy Spirit. God also took on flesh and became a man, while at the same time still being fully God. Nothing is impossible for God.

 

[Renniks]

Egad, those passages you quoted from a ultra modern version say nothing like the KJV.

Who made that one?

Which incarnationist commentator?

Sometimes the King James is not the best translation to really understand a concept.

 

[Renniks]

I only use the KJV.

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

 

[Taken]

First thanks for the reply, second how can someone be Tormented without a JUDGMENT? is not the Judgment last?

There are judgements all the time.
When you are Saved you are judged to be cleansed, righteous.
When you are Quickened you are Judged to be Sealed.
When you Glorify God, you are judged to Receive a reward for your Effort (treasure stored in Heaven)
Etc.

And an End Judgement ... for Fallen Angel and All people.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

and as for the dead, is not Ecclesiastes 9:5 correct? "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." so how can the dead Having the same "senses" when alive?

Your flesh body has ...LIFE....Blood
Your soul has ... LIFE....Gods Breath
Your spirit has .. LIFE...Birth from Gods Seed

Your Blood is going to stop flowing, heart stop beating, dead Body, buried returns to dust. Waits to be resurrected, Raised UP in a Glorified immortal body.
While your body is dead in the grave...
It knows nothing.
your Living Soul goes to heaven, Waits for Body to Be Raised.
Your quickened spirit goes to Gods hand in Heaven, Waits for Body to be Raised UP.

Unsaved dead body buried, knows nothing.
Unsaved Living Soul goes to hell, Waits in Torments, for Body to be Raised & Judged.
Spirit was never born again (quickened), dies with body.

 

[101G]

There are judgements all the time.
When you are Saved you are judged to be cleansed, righteous.
When you are Quickened you are Judged to be Sealed.
When you Glorify God, you are judged to Receive a reward for your Effort (treasure stored in Heaven)
Etc.

And an End Judgement ... for Fallen Angel and All people.

Glory to God,
Taken

I know those Judgment, but of the final, in condemnation? and not before. for if they are already Judge why have a final judgment. well if you're save do you need to be saved again? NO, nor in a condemnation Judgment to be doom again. which I understand of a end Jusdment for angels, but of DEAD HUMANS, judgment s all the time, don't think so, once dead that's it until the final Judgment?. unless you have another scripture to show otherwise. I'm always learn.....

we do agree on the angels. and for humans, Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

"Revelation 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." (question, "WHAT WORKS DO THE DEAD HAVE AFTER THEY LIVED?". let's check the record, Psalms 115:17 "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." Isaiah 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth." Psalms 88:10 "Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah."
Psalms 88:11 "Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?"

Psalms 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"

So clearly for scriptures, there is no WORKS from the DEAD. the DEAD is DEAD.

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So what is Judge of the dead is what they did before they died.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

Your flesh body has ...LIFE....Blood
Your soul has ... LIFE....Gods Breath
Your spirit has .. LIFE...Birth from Gods Seed

Your Blood is going to stop flowing, heart stop beating, dead Body, buried returns to dust. Waits to be resurrected, Raised UP in a Glorified immortal body.
While your body is dead in the grave...
It knows nothing.
your Living Soul goes to heaven, Waits for Body to Be Raised.
Your quickened spirit goes to Gods hand in Heaven, Waits for Body to be Raised UP.

Unsaved dead body buried, knows nothing.
Unsaved Living Soul goes to hell, Waits in Torments, for Body to be Raised & Judged.
Spirit was never born again (quickened), dies with body.

"your Living Soul goes to heaven, Waits for Body to Be Raised?". where is that in the bible? that our souls go to heaven?

yes, your spirit returns to God who gave it, that's bible. but this is where you lost me, "Unsaved Living Soul goes to hell, Waits in Torments, for Body to be Raised & Judged". where in the bible do it states that?

"Spirit was never born again (quickened), dies with body". ok, two implications. #1. spirits are not quicken, or change, but our Natural bodies are. scripture, 1 Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"
1 Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

well spirit don't die, for spirits come from God and there is no death in God, but spirit can be re-newed... Psalms 51:10 "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me."

so the spirit "die" with a dead body is out. but on the other Hand a "Soul", can die, or be destroyed. Ezekiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

so again it is the body and the soul that is able to be destroyed. but not the spirit. now one other thing, the BEAST and the false prophet is thrown ... "ALIVE" .... into a lake of fire, no others are mention being alive when thrown in the lake of fire, listen, Revelation 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

implications. #2. if bodies are dead, and there is no spirit, and in the case of a living "NATURAL soul it takes the "BREATH" of God for the soul to live with a body and spirit. for you said, "spirit was never born again (quickened), dies with body". well since we know spirits don't die because of God who gives the spirit life. so what's left is "soul?" and body? no for the body without the spirit is dead. spirits are re-newed. so there is no scenario for a spirit and a soul with a dead body. but the body is resurrected in order to stand in the final Judgment, after judgment no breath. scripture, Psalms 51:11 "Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me." the holy spirit here is that "breath", life.

so I cannot buy your scenario of, "your Living Soul goes to heaven, Waits for Body to Be Raised?" nor the, "Spirit was never born again (quickened), dies with body" you got to give me something else to consider.

but thanks for the your post, for it made me see something I haven't saw before, and that's what a good discussion do... produce more revelation knowledge... again thanks.

PICJAG.

 

[Truther]

Clearly to you specific, a waste of my time,.



Clearly you are not keen enough (even after being told) to quote another, instead of you speaking for them.




Clearly you not not keen enough to know...
It is both!



No. Scripture harmonizes with Scripture...not some theme by your understanding.

The entire message of the Gospel is this in summary....



19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


But, the incarnationist refutes it by thinking Paul really meant this...


19 To wit, that God was in HIS OWN FLESH, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


What a huge difference.

 

[Truther]

God is Spirit correct. That's why we call him the Holy Spirit. God also took on flesh and became a man, while at the same time still being fully God. Nothing is impossible for God.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Except what you just said.

 

[Renniks]

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Except what you just said.

I don't understand why you believe both can't be true. We don't meet Jesus in the flesh so of course we must worship him in Spirit.

 

[Truther]

I don't understand why you believe both can't be true. We don't meet Jesus in the flesh so of course we must worship him in Spirit.

Easy, because Jesus described God as a Spirit...him...him...in John 4:24.

Not, God is is flesh and Spirit....me...me...

 

[Renniks]

Easy, because Jesus described God as a Spirit...him...him...in John 4:24.

Not, God is is flesh and Spirit....me...me...

Because God is Spirit. The Holy Spirit. We don't only worship one part of the Trinity. But Jesus also accepted worship of himself. No mere man can do that unless he is a deciever or is truly God.

 

[kcnalp]

The word became Himself?

The Word became flesh.

God was in God, or God was in a human being?

Surely a human being was not God, from the ovary to the grave...

John 3:13
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

 

[kcnalp]

I only use the KJV.

Why?

 

[kcnalp]

How did an omnipresent Spirit put on non omnipresent flesh?

Why do you struggle so with the Book of miracles?

1 Corinthians 2
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[kcnalp]

The human, begotten son of God put on a layer of flesh?

You are pulling my leg, right?

A Spirit God wears flesh?

Why not? Because you say so? The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God!


Isaiah 40
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: "Prepare the way of the LORD; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.
Matthew 3
3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.' "

 

[mjrhealth]

Why not? Because you say so? The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God!

And Jesus repeatedly said HE was not,

Mar_10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

 

[kcnalp]

And Jesus repeatedly said HE was not,

No He did not.

Mar_10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

You're saying Jesus wasn't good? Pity you!