Should Christians Support Isreal?

[Rach1370]

I'm glad to here your looking, in my younger years I went over this as well. What I would encourage you to do is make certain all the pieces fit.
your presentation and understanding has to include the other verse as well or else the complete word and understanding has become void and useless.

Many have taken this verse found in Romans 11 and neglected the others.

Like Romans 9:6
Matthew 3:9
Gal 3:6

But I'm confident that He who has began a good work in you shall complete it.
Phil 1:6
That you may be made complete in Him
Col 2:8-10

It's not Gal 3:6 above
It should be
Gal 3:16

Funny how necessary 3:6 is as well
Maybe its not a mistake at all

Indeed I'm looking...I suspect I always will be with everything in scripture...simply because I think we should always be open to God showing us something else, or leading us somewhere different.
But despite that, and despite my willingness to admit my take on Romans 11 may be incorrect, I'm not really sure the verses you've given allow for that interpretation.

Romans 9:6 doesn't speak to Israel's future, only that God's promises had not failed just because not all Jews had believed in Jesus. Paul says that God's promises were never to every single Jew, but to the 'elect' or 'remnant' of Jews down through the ages...the spiritual line of Abraham (which includes all Christians now), not necessarily the physical line of Abraham. Paul then goes on to speak of God's right to chose some and not the others...but it does not address the future of Israel there...in fact this passage, which clearly speaks of unbelieving Israel, then runs on into the passage that is still clearly speaking of unbelieving Israel, and says that after the 'fullness' of the Gentiles has been brought in, so to then shall Israel. So, I truly cannot see this as evidence against God's plan for this people in the future.

Matthew 3:9 again does not speak to ethic Israel's future. All it says it that no one...not even a Jew, should presume on God's grace. As Paul touches on later, just because you may claim Abraham as an ancestor, it does not give a person the expectation that God's promise holds to him...especially if they do not follow Christ.

Galatians 3:6-7 confirms that all who have faith are Abraham's descendants...spiritual Israel. But again, does not say either way what God's plans are for Israel.

Whoops...okay...you meant Galatians 3:16...lets see...well...the same deal really. We know that all the promises give to Abraham and his descendants where all for, to and because of, Christ. And that through these men all nations would be blessed....blessed because of Jesus and his life, death and resurrection. But still, how do we then draw a conclusion from this passage, or any of the above, that says God has no plans for the Jews? It simply does not say it...so when confronted by verses that say these thing about ethnic and not spiritual Israel, what must our conclusion be?

Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!... And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in,... Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved,... so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.

Anyway, that's where I am now....still considering...but we'll see...

 

[Rex]

Well my basic rule of thumb is that even in the old testament there is Israel of the flesh and Israel of the promise.
It's the confusing the two one for another that causes the apparent contradictions. God has never blinded or hardened a heart that wasn't against Him to start with. We could consider it discipline in some cases in others its the dis-guarding. In a nut shell what Paul is saying is there is still hope even into the age of the Gentiles for hardened Jews. The mission or work of God threw and for Israel is complete and this gets into another topic of the 70th week. Many use this verse to claim that God is not finished with Israel and Paul makes that clear in the Slavic sense, the difference is the proper understanding of Danial's 70th week. I believe its completed right after the 69th. The Old covenant has passed being fulfilled by Christ, and the new was rejected by some Jews but the promise from Eve threw the ages was delivered right on time, exclusively to the Jews for the 7 years Gabriel spoke of. Then the message and the completed promise to Abraham went to all nations and peoples. So If you have been listening to teachers that tell you Gods not finished with Israel of the flesh "the Nation" and God still owes them His promise I suggest you start figuring it out.

The verse in Daniel 9:27 holds the key to a very large door. http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17103-the-he-of-daniel-927/

Romans 11 has been used to support IMO a foundation of sand. The word doesn't contradict itself and salvation is not based on race or I'm a Jew I've been promised salvation because my father was Abraham. At the very beginning of Jesus ministry John TB made it very clear, and don't think unto yourselves that Abraham is your father. If you can except it I would encourage you to read the thread we've been talking about 9:27 in, it is so very important.

And to the original post Yes we should support Israel just as much as we should support anyone that hasn't come to the knowledge of Christ.
But be careful as to not encourage them in their blindness, as we would any lost brother. The blood line of the fathers is of no value before the cross.
But after salvation the blood line is made perfect.

Didn't Jesus make that clear in every Gospel?

There is no Jew and Gentile in the kingdom There is only Israel

 

[Rach1370]

So If you have been listening to teachers that tell you Gods not finished with Israel of the flesh "the Nation" and God still owes them His promise I suggest you start figuring it out.


Romans 11 has been used to support IMO a foundation of sand. The word doesn't contradict itself and salvation is not based on race or I'm a Jew I've been promised salvation because my father was Abraham. At the very beginning of Jesus ministry John TB made it very clear, and don't think unto yourselves that Abraham is your father. If you can except it I would encourage you to read the thread we've been talking about 9:27 in, it is so very important.


But be careful as to not encourage them in their blindness, as we would any lost brother. The blood line of the fathers is of no value before the cross.
But after salvation the blood line is made perfect.

Didn't Jesus make that clear in every Gospel?

I think there may be just a smidge of misunderstanding going on here!

As far as "God owing national Israel" his promise....no...I don't think that at all! God's promise to Abraham has been fulfilled in us...spiritual Israel. You see, when the Jews rejected Christ, they pretty much broke covenant with God...and disqualified themselves from the promise of the land and God's saving grace. So just claiming these things through bloodline cannot hold.

So no, I don't believe, at all, that just because someone is nationally, ethnically Jewish, they can claim these things. As you say, scripture is very clear about. At this point in time, indeed from the moment they rejected Christ, they have been 'spiritually dead', the same as every other unbeliever in the world.

But, I do believe that Romans 11 tells us that God at some point and for some reason (I would read this reason as being God's glory...how wondrous when he brings these people...though they do not deserve it...back to him!) God will reach out and save many Jews. And when I say save...I mean bring them to Christ. So I'm not advocating that these people will be saved because of bloodline, or worthiness. I'm not saying that it will happen apart from the cross. Salvation for them will come as it comes for all...through Jesus and him crucified. I'm just saying that I see Romans 11 as pretty clearly saying that He is going to do it.

 

[Selene]

I never said they were no longer God's chosen people, and I most certainly never said God goes back on his promises! What I was trying to illustrate is that God's plans are for all to come to him. He chose to 'partially' harden the Jews until such a time that 'all' the Gentiles he has called to himself have 'come in'.

My apologies. Then I guess I misunderstood when you stated the following.

I believe that the Bible teaches that as Christians, we are God's chosen people.

 

[Rex]

I think there may be just a smidge of misunderstanding going on here!

So is the problem with sharing with people you don't know, I have no Idea how long you've been saved what you have discovered, in short, I do know what is taught and believe by some, my only insight was to reflect on what misconceptions I have seen concerning this verse. If that applies to you then fine If not then my mistake. What it doesn't do is take away from my previous comment that the scriptures don't contradict one another. To say that Jesus has blinded the Jews for 2000 years is a bit of a stretch when it is Gods desire that all come into the knowledge of Him. 2 Peter 3:9 1 Tim 2:4

The promise to poses the land for Israel is another topic, but will the Lord give the inheritance to unbelievers even Jewish unbelievers?
Or for His own Names sake in-spite of the turning away will the Word spoken threw the Prophets come to pass?

Verses 22-32 Of all judgments, spiritual judgments are the sorest; of these the apostle is here speaking. The restoration of the Jews is, in the course of things, far less improbable than the call of the Gentiles to be the children of Abraham; and though others now possess these privileges, it will not hinder their being admitted again. By rejecting the gospel, and by their indignation at its being preached to the Gentiles, the Jews were become enemies to God; yet they are still to be favoured for the sake of their pious fathers. Though at present they are enemies to the gospel, for their hatred to the Gentiles; yet, when God's time is come, that will no longer exist, and God's love to their fathers will be remembered. True grace seeks not to confine God's favour. Those who find mercy themselves, should endeavour that through their mercy others also may obtain mercy. Not that the Jews will be restored to have their priesthood, and temple, and ceremonies again; an end is put to all these; but they are to be brought to believe in Christ, the true become one sheep-fold with the Gentiles, under Christ the Great Shepherd. The captivities of Israel, their dispersion, and their being shut out from the church, are emblems of the believer's corrections for doing wrong; and the continued care of the Lord towards that people, and the final mercy and blessed restoration intended for them, show the patience and love of God.

 

[Rach1370]

[font=lucida sans unicode']My apologies. Then I guess I misunderstood when you stated the following. [/font]

Okay...I'll try and tie it together, but sometimes I struggle to express myself properly.
The Jews were God's chosen people...but not every single one of them were saved due to their blood Isaac and Ishmael for example). The bible tells us that even though God 'watched' over the Jewish people as a whole, there was a remnant within them whom he chose to give grace and carry out his redemptive purposes. Even now, when God hardened them to bring grace to the Gentiles, there is still a remnant of believers in the Jewish nation.
I believe that when they rejected Christ and Gentiles received him, then Christians became the new people of God...Romans 9 confirms as much. But as we read Romans 9 through 11 we see that while the new elect of God encompasses mostly Gentiles and some Jews, God is not yet done with the Jews. Now, while we may not call them his elect, his people of grace at this point in time, Romans 11 does give us leave to say that he will call a large part of them to him...as elected people of grace, through Christ. Knowing this and seeing how God is steering them yet, we cannot say that he has abandoned them...he certainly hasn't 'unchosen' them...just, delayed them while we receive the benefit of grace. This is not some doctrine I've stitched together because of my love for the people of Israel...although yeah...I think they've been done by badly....it's something that is quite obviously stated in Romans 11....the Jews have been 'partially hardened until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in'....it's the "until" there that I think is the big clue....
So...hope that came out a little clearer....

To say that Jesus has blinded the Jews for 2000 years is a bit of a stretch when it is Gods desire that all come into the knowledge of Him. 2 Peter 3:9 1 Tim 2:4

Well...I wouldn't say it's a stretch if that's what the Bible says. Clearly it says that God has hardened them...

What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.


And as far as God's desire that all come to him....ah, yeah....I'd say that's good proof for God's bringing them to himself! Yes, he wants all to come to him. But sadly, that won't happen. Many Jewish people throughout history have died without knowing Jesus, many more will....but again, that, as well as the verses you've given, doesn't say that God will not lead many Jewish people to Jesus in the last days.

The promise to poses the land for Israel is another topic, but will the Lord give the inheritance to unbelievers even Jewish unbelievers?
Or for His own Names sake in-spite of the turning away will the Word spoken threw the Prophets come to pass?

Here again, I suspect a misunderstanding. The land of Israel belongs to God's chosen people....which are the elect. Christians. When I say that God will bring the Jews back to him, I'm not talking in an old covenant style deal. These men and women of Israel will have their hearts opened to Jesus. In that way, not in the way of their blood, they will be elect and therefore will inherit the land.
The nation of Israel today, have no divine rights to that piece of earth. What they do have rights to is a place to live persecuted, and a right to protect themselves....just as all humans have.

 

[deceptionfree]

I think that most Christians don't see any difference between Judaism and being Jewish and Zionism and being a nationalist Israeli.

Right you are.

 

[James Forthwright]

"Should Christians Support Isreal"?
First of all, the correct spelling is ISRAEL.

And the proper answer (if you are referring to the modern Middle Eastern occupied state) is:

NO!

 

[Thegoodground]

"Should Christians Support Isreal"?
First of all, the correct spelling is ISRAEL.

And the proper answer (if you are referring to the modern Middle Eastern occupied state) is:

NO!

A very unwise response.

It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. (Rom 15:27)

If only James understood the true Gospel he would not have written such nonesense.

TGG

 

[James Forthwright]

A very unwise response.

It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. (Rom 15:27)

If only James understood the true Gospel he would not have written such nonesense.

TGG

The above nonsense, coming from an individual who evidently can't correctly spell "nonsense" (and apparently lacks the basic understanding of how to use the forum supplied spellchecker).

In (Rev. 2:9) and (Rev. 3:9) the beloved Apostle John gives us a profound warning that there exists 'false Jews' who make fraudulent claims to the ancestry and land of Abraham but who are in reality agents of Satan. If you care to be enlightened, I highly suggest you do some research on the Khazars (who make up the majority of the modern inhabitants of modern day Israel) and you'll discover that they are NOT whom they claim to be, in fact, they aren't even Semites.

The Jewish Encyclopedia:

"Khazars, a non-Semitic, Asiatic, Mongolian tribal nation who emigrated into Eastern Europe about the first century, who were converted as an entire nation to Judaism in the seventh century by the expanding Russian nation which absorbed the entire Khazar population, and who account for the presence in Eastern Europe of the great numbers of Yiddish-speaking Jews in Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Galatia, Besserabia and Rumania."

Another sizable portion of Jews are of Edomite extraction (who are descendants of Jacob's twin brother Esau whose lineage God cursed).

The Jewish Encyclopedia states: "EDOM IS IN MODERN JEWRY". (Jewish Encyclopedia 1925 edition Vol. 5 pg.41)

It appears that Esau's descendants are attempting to claim their previously forfeited birthright and blessings which were instead granted to the Israelite nations (which were dispersed throughout Christendom).

"If the ten tribes have disappeared the literal fulfillment of the prophecies would be impossible; if they have not disappeared, obviously they must exist under a different name." (Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. 12, p.. 249)

 

[Thegoodground]

The above nonsense, coming from an individual who evidently can't correctly spell "nonsense" (and apparently lacks the basic understanding of how to use the forum supplied spellchecker).

Don’t take the correction of your error so much to heart, but rather correct your false understanding with the Holy Scriptures and not the sayings of men. Upon reading your post I immediately perceived it being outside the spirit of the Apostles writings...I was compelled to filter it through a single verse for truth's sake.

In (Rev. 2:9) and (Rev. 3:9) the beloved Apostle John gives us a profound warning that there exists 'false Jews' who make fraudulent claims to the ancestry and land of Abraham but who are in reality agents of Satan.

Truthfully, I have never seen a gross mishandling of this verse as you have shown here.

These pseudo-spiritual-Jews "went out" of the Ekklesia of their own accord (see 1 John 2:19), accusing their brethren falsely of being in the wrong. Having separated themselves, they became a congregation of the satan, the adversary (human), they were opposed to those who kept the Truth, though claiming some sort of identity with them.

But their claim was blasphemy.

They pretended to be Christians, but were opposed to the true doctrine of Christ, and opposed those who were faithful to it, thereby making themselves 'the Satan in Smyrna'.

I don’t believe the Jews today claim to be pseudo - spiritual - Jews, and certainly your use of Rev 2:9 cannot speak to the work of God regathering his people to the Holy Land.

By the way, it is more credible you use the Divine encyclopaedia than one written by man - not to say it’s not without it's use; but your post is a point in mention and a warning to those who go astray from hearing His Word.

For others reading this post I would draw your attention to the phrase "Which say they are Jews" to mean they say the share in the "hope of Israel" (Acts 28:20; John 4:22) as do all true Christians, but clearly they were found to be liars.

TGG
p.s feel free to spell check my posts anytime

 

[veteran]

As Christians we are to look beyond the ideas of political ziionism, the Ashkenazi, Sephardic, and Khazarian concepts.

In Jeremiah 24 our Heavenly Father foretold that He would bring those of the house of Judah back to the holy land and not remove them again, and give them a heart to know Him. Along with those He mentioned another group that He revealed to Jeremiah as the baskets of evil figs.

Jer 24:4-8
4 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5 Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.
6 For I will set Mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
7 And I will give them an heart to know Me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be My people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart.
8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the LORD, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:
(KJV)


In 1 Kings 11, God promised that He would always leave one tribe in Jerusalem for His servant David and Jerusalem's sake. That historically has been a remnant of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi (i.e. "house of Judah" per God's Word).

There is political unrest in the state of Israel because of this Jer.24 event being fulfilled in 1948 when Israel became a nation state again in the holy land after it had ended almost 2000 years ago, even though it happened politically through the U.N. Charter with a connection to political zionism. Prior to that, both Jews and Arabs lived in the holy lands together in a greater peace than they do today.

Regardless, we still do not see the state of Israel established as it once was back in the times of David and Solomon with all 12 tribes in their inheritances of the land. And there's no reason to expect to see that happening until our Lord Jesus Christ returns at the second coming.

So why... is this unrest happening? Why did God set this in order for the end of this world?

It is so as to fulfill His prophecies for the end of this world. And what are those about concerning Jerusalem and the state of Israel and the world? The zionist movement is about "one world government", for it reaches a lot farther than just the state of Israel today. All orthodox Jews are taught to expect the coming of Messiah. Some of them think that a war is necessary to bring in the coming of Messiah, others believe a world peace is required. But how has our Heavenly Father foretold us the end is to occur?

Before Messiah (Jesus Christ) will return, a fake must come first in the role of Messiah, to Jerusalem, and proclaim himself as God, sitting in a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem. That is the prophecy per the Book of Daniel, per Christ in His Olivet Discourse, and through John in Revelation. Per Apostle Paul and Daniel the prophet, it is to include a time of world peace, so that is already revealing that those behind "one world government" are going to win out to make this happen. Still, we as believers on The Saviour Jesus Christ are to remain above all this working, living in the world, but not of it.

For those who have refused to believe Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ, the coming fake Messiah is specifically being sent upon them because of their rebellion against Him. The two warring factions are Islam and orthodox Jewry for the end, not us. Because we as believers on Christ Jesus will not spiritually support either, we shall be persecuted by them both, for they know not what they do. It does not matter whether we agree to support the state of Israel or not, for the controls orthodox Jews have over the economies and political apparatus among nations is going to further their cause anyway. The view we as Christians should have is a larger one, understanding why our Heavenly Father is bringing these events for the end in preparation for His Son's return.

 

[James Forthwright]

Don’t take the correction of your error so much to heart, but rather correct your false understanding with the Holy Scriptures and not the sayings of men. Upon reading your post I immediately perceived it being outside the spirit of the Apostles writings...I was compelled to filter it through a single verse for truth's sake.

TGG, just because my doctrinal opinion regarding a particular non-Christian sect conflicts with your perceptions (or majority opinion) does not necessarily mean that my views are “outside the spirit of the Apostles writings”. We merely disagree on the matter. Here is the verse you supplied to bolster your postion:

It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. (Rom 15:27)

Now that is a lovely scriptural verse you chose but a few things need to be clarified.

1. Supply us with some evidence that modern Jews are related to the same Jews the Apostle Paul was referring to. Show me precisely how they are related to the twelve tribes of Israel. (They’re own literature proves otherwise.)
2. If you can do that, then kindly tell me what “carnal things” we are indebted to minister unto Jews per Rom. 15:27? Just how many Billion$ of our tax dollars of annual aid is sufficient for this New Jersey sized foreign nation? Are we also obligated to send them the latest military equipment, F-16 jets, Iron Dome missiles and the military personnel that man those installations?
3. Are we also obligated to send our troops to fight (and die for) each and every country that threatens a nation that calls itself “Israel”? There’s no shortage of Jewish enemies. Just how many nations are we indebted to invade? The United States (and a dozen other coalition forces) have now been embroiled in several wars in the Middle East for well over a decade. Just how many decades of continual war and thousand of Arab innocents must be slaughtered to assure this so-called country of Israel’s safety? Which specific treaties does the United States and NATO forces have with Israel? Do you think that God Almighty needs US military forces to defend His Chosen People (patent pending)?

Truthfully, I have never seen a gross mishandling of this verse as you have shown here.

Is your understanding of the Book of Revelation (or the entire Bible) flawless? Have you ever changed your doctrinal position on certain issues?

These pseudo-spiritual-Jews "went out" of the Ekklesia of their own accord (see 1 John 2:19), accusing their brethren falsely of being in the wrong. Having separated themselves, they became a congregation of the satan, the adversary (human), they were opposed to those who kept the Truth, though claiming some sort of identity with them. But their claim was blasphemy. They pretended to be Christians, but were opposed to the true doctrine of Christ, and opposed those who were faithful to it, thereby making themselves 'the Satan in Smyrna'.

The two scriptural passages from the resurrected Christ I quoted (Rev 2:9) & (Rev 3:9) BOTH specifically state “which say they are Jews, and are not”. Their false claim was of being “Jews” not “Christians” as you mistakenly assert.

I don’t believe the Jews today claim to be pseudo - spiritual - Jews, and certainly your use of Rev 2:9 cannot speak to the work of God regathering his people to the Holy Land.

No one ever claims to be pseudo anything. Jews today (though a large percentage of them are atheists) regularly make the outlandish claim that they are the “Chosen People of G_d” (i.e. descendants of Abraham/Issac/Jacob). And I disproved their claims by quoting from their own Jewish literature that the vast majority of “those that say they are Jews” are NOT of Israelite lineage at all. They aren't even Semites (from Noah's son Shem) They are imposters and fraudulent interlopers in Palestine who have buffaloed thousands of Judeao-Christians, like yourself, that they are somehow specially beloved of God even though they admit they have no Abrahamic lineage and have adamantly rejected God’s blessed Son for over TWO THOUSAND YEARS!

By the way, it is more credible you use the Divine encyclopaedia than one written by man - not to say it’s not without it's use; but your post is a point in mention and a warning to those who go astray from hearing His Word.

Yes, TGG the Holy Bible is the ultimate source and barometer of truth. As I earlier stated, the use of quotes from Jewish sources was done to precisely prove that the Jews TODAY themselves know they are NOT REALLY ISRAELITES mentioned in the Bible. But as long as they can get people like you to continually send them billions of tax dollars and fight their never-ending conflicts for them in the Middle East they’ll go right on pulling the wool over your eyes.

For others reading this post I would draw your attention to the phrase "Which say they are Jews" to mean they say the share in the "hope of Israel" (Acts 28:20; John 4:22) as do all true Christians, but clearly they were found to be liars.

As in the First Century, there’s likewise, no shortage of liars amongst ‘those that call themselves Jews’ in the Twenty First century. Many prophetical passages have direct application in subsequent eras. As I alluded in the previous post the true tribes of Israel where dispersed throughout Christendom. A tree is known by its fruit. Have you ever done a Bible Study on the “Lost Tribes of Israel”?

It’s important to read scriptural verses in context. Two verses below your proof text Jesus declares:

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

There is no salvation or true worship of God for Jews (or anyone else FTM) outside of a heart-felt acknowledgement that Jesus is the Messiah (John 14:6).

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

israel has always been central in Gods focus. the christian church is not israel. the sun has been shining on the gentile christian church for 2000 years but soon the sun shines back on israel pretty bright. all the end time prophecies focus on israel. not some little christian church in missouri or something.

israel is israel is israel. keep that always in mind and all the bible pieces fit together properly.

 

[Thegoodground]

TGG, just because my doctrinal opinion regarding a particular non-Christian sect conflicts with your perceptions (or majority opinion) does not necessarily mean that my views are “outside the spirit of the Apostles writings”. We merely disagree on the matter. Here is the verse you supplied to bolster your postion:

Paul referred to the non - Christian sect in the following manner:

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. (Rom 11:18)

Clearly you have forgotten both the natural branches and the root which gives you life.

Now that is a lovely scriptural verse you chose but a few things need to be clarified.

• Supply us with some evidence that modern Jews are related to the same Jews the Apostle Paul was referring to. Show me precisely how they are related to the twelve tribes of Israel. (They’re own literature proves otherwise.)
  
• If you can do that, then kindly tell me what “carnal things” we are indebted to minister unto Jews per Rom. 15:27? Just how many Billion$ of our tax dollars of annual aid is sufficient for this New Jersey sized foreign nation? Are we also obligated to send them the latest military equipment, F-16 jets, Iron Dome missiles and the military personnel that man those installations?
  
• Are we also obligated to send our troops to fight (and die for) each and every country that threatens a nation that calls itself “Israel”? There’s no shortage of Jewish enemies. Just how many nations are we indebted to invade? The United States (and a dozen other coalition forces) have now been embroiled in several wars in the Middle East for well over a decade. Just how many decades of continual war and thousand of Arab innocents must be slaughtered to assure this so-called country of Israel’s safety? Which specific treaties does the United States and NATO forces have with Israel? Do you think that God Almighty needs US military forces to defend His Chosen People (patent pending)

These are yet more foolish and unlearned questions:

If you cannot find a way to help the poor of Israel, maybe by God's grace in the Kingdom age you will be one of the ten men you take the skirt of a Jew in the Kingdom age? Zech 8:23

These are natural Jews mind you.

Is your understanding of the Book of Revelation (or the entire Bible) flawless? Have you ever changed your doctrinal position on certain issues?

Not flawless, however I do possess a sound understanding of the true interpration of the Revelation.

The two scriptural passages from the resurrected Christ I quoted (Rev 2:9) & (Rev 3:9) BOTH specifically state “which say they are Jews, and are not”. Their false claim was of being “Jews” not “Christians” as you mistakenly assert.

Yes, but as shown to you these were not people pretending to be Jews for what advantage do they achieve to Christians?

No one ever claims to be pseudo anything.

The claim is understood as above.

If a non Jew came to a Christian ekklesia in Asia Minor what advantage do they have being Jews outside of the Holy Land?

Not only is the interpration spiritual... it is also logical.

Jews today (though a large percentage of them are atheists) regularly make the outlandish claim that they are the “Chosen People of G_d” (i.e. descendants of Abraham/Issac/Jacob). And I disproved their claims by quoting from their own Jewish literature that the vast majority of “those that say they are Jews” are NOT of Israelite lineage at all. They aren't even Semites (from Noah's son Shem) They are imposters and fraudulent interlopers in Palestine who have buffaloed thousands of Judeao-Christians, like yourself, that they are somehow specially beloved of God even though they admit they have no Abrahamic lineage and have adamantly rejected God’s blessed Son for over TWO THOUSAND YEARS!

This statement only reveals how far removed you are from the "hope of Israel", and the nearness of the Masters return.

Yes, TGG the Holy Bible is the ultimate source and barometer of truth.

Agreed.

As I earlier stated, the use of quotes from Jewish sources was done to precisely prove that the Jews TODAY themselves know they are NOT REALLY ISRAELITES mentioned in the Bible. But as long as they can get people like you to continually send them billions of tax dollars and fight their never-ending conflicts for them in the Middle East they’ll go right on pulling the wool over your eyes.

A cynical view and not a prophetical view as foretold by the prophets.

As in the First Century, there’s likewise, no shortage of liars amongst ‘those that call themselves Jews’ in the Twenty First century. Many prophetical passages have direct application in subsequent eras. As I alluded in the previous post the true tribes of Israel where dispersed throughout Christendom. A tree is known by its fruit. Have you ever done a Bible Study on the “Lost Tribes of Israel”?

And yet:

And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive. (Jer 29:14)

It’s important to read scriptural verses in context. Two verses below your proof text Jesus declares:

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The below statement neglects the fact that Jesus Christ is and was a Jew. In fact he was a natural Jew of the tribe of Judah being the Son of David and his flesh and blood.

Now if you resist the natural, how can you ever comprehend the spiritual?

There is no salvation or true worship of God for Jews (or anyone else FTM) outside of a heart-felt acknowledgement that Jesus is the Messiah (John 14:6).

 

[veteran]

israel has always been central in Gods focus. the christian church is not israel. the sun has been shining on the gentile christian church for 2000 years but soon the sun shines back on israel pretty bright. all the end time prophecies focus on israel. not some little christian church in missouri or something.

israel is israel is israel. keep that always in mind and all the bible pieces fit together properly.

You can say that Christ's Church is not God's Israel a thousand times, but it won't make your statement true. In Ephesians 2 Apostle Paul used the title of "the commonwealth of Israel" to describe what believing Gentiles had become nigh to by belief on Christ Jesus. So you're gonna' tell us that means Gentiles believing like the orthodox Jews in the state of Israel believe today? That's ludicrous, for the majority of those in the state of Israel still refuse our Lord Jesus Christ as Messiah.

You're apparently not staying in God's Word about the events to occur in Jerusalem for the end either, because it's going to be the epicenter of idol worship for the very end of this world prior to Christ's return. That's specifically how... the majority of endtime prophecies focus on the Israel in the middleast today.

 

[horsecamp]

I like Benjamin Netanyahu he reminds me of our first pastor . Dr Martin Luther he is even brawny built like Luther was ..and stands his ground like Luther .. I also think he has been a trusted friend ,. israel fortuante to have a leader like that .. I was wondering if their was a way we could make a trade with israel ? .Him for president Obama.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I like Benjamin Netanyahu he reminds me of our first pastor . Dr Martin Luther he is even brawny built like Luther was ..and stands his ground like Luther .. I also think he has been a trusted friend ,. israel fortuante to have a leader like that .. I was wondering if their was a way we could make a trade with israel ? .Him for president Obama.

i like Benjamin as well
He tells it like it is and doesn't put up with any crap
But do you ever notice North American media hardly ever show his speeches ??
Some good ones on youtube worth watching.

 

[horsecamp]

ironic that your screen name is deception free.
to be anti Zionist is to be anti-Christ.

replacement theology is the tip to the ice-burg of anti-semetism.
want proof? Hitler believe in replacement theology.

REPLACMENT theology is really a deogratory name for A-millianism .. i wont even get into the anti semetic remark .yet it seems you think your more intitled to salvation than hitler was .. No ----------God says their is no one righteous not one.. Thats why he had to justfy us the ungodly .
A PERSON could call your type of theology "fairy tale' theology because it based on the pharacies fairy tail that The christ would come and make them be really great and really rich guys among the nations of the earth THEY WOULD RULE WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARs and get lots of neat stuff !!! and honor from every one ...

instead Jesus came as a savior from sin------------- AND WAS NOT INTRESTED IN A EARTHLY reighn Since his was gloriusly better a heavenly kingdom. and a kingdom of beleiving human hearts .. they did not want that type of Christ .. they wanted a Christ to conqer their enemies and make them great. they wanted a christ they made up in their mind . they wanted a fairyTALE Christ. they wanted stuff. LIKE GREAT HONOR AND RESPECT AND WEALTH . and this Christ did not cut the mustard . so they decided to plot aginst him annd have him murdered .




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5MDqUAfPcI&list=UU2-3Cf7Hw10b3NW05p2Z7IA&index=51

 

[James Forthwright]

I like Benjamin Netanyahu he reminds me of our first pastor . Dr Martin Luther he is even brawny built like Luther was ..and stands his ground like Luther .. I also think he has been a trusted friend ,. israel fortuante to have a leader like that .. I was wondering if their was a way we could make a trade with israel ? .Him for president Obama.

Yeah, Bibi's "a true trusted friend alright". . .

“My opinion of Christian Zionists? They’re scum. But don’t tell them that. We need all the useful idiots we can get right now,” — spoken by none other than Benjamin “Bibi” Netanyahu, Prime Minister of Israel. Who was present in New York City on 9/11 and London during the 7/7 subway bombings.

“Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away.” ~ Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, 2002.

And a quote from Bibi's pals:

"Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us, to pull the rug from underneath the feet of the Diaspora Jews, so that they will be forced to run to us crying. Even if it means blowing up one or two synagogues here and there, I don't care." -- Ariel Sharon, interviewed by Amos Oz (published in the Israeli daily Davar, DEC 17, 1982


Jerusalem: 3 October, 2001 (IAP) -- According to Israel radio (in Hebrew) Kol Yisrael, [Shimon] Peres warned [Ariel] Sharon Wednesday that refusing to heed incessant American requests for a cease-fire with the Palestinians would endanger Israeli interests and 'turn the U.S. against us.' At this point, a furious Sharon reportedly turns toward Peres, saying "Every time we do something you tell me Americans would do this and will do that. I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it".

I also admire Martin Luther, horsecamp. Here's a bit of what he had to say about Jews:

(In a sermon at Eisleben, a few days before his death, February, 1546): Besides, you also have many Jews living in the country, who do much harm... You should know the Jews blaspheme and violate the name of our Savior day for day... for that reason you, Milords and men of authority, should not tolerate but expel them. They are our public enemies and incessantly blaspheme our Lord Jesus Christ, they call our Blessed Virgin Mary a harlot and her Holy Son a bastard and to us they give the epithet of changeling: and abortions.
Therefore deal with them harshly as they do nothing but excruciatingly blaspheme our Lord Jesus Christ, trying to rob us of our lives, our health, our honor and belongings." --Martin Luther