Should Christians Support Isreal?

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deceptionfree

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Nov 8, 2012
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This can be a huge topic and I can not cover it all in one post, so I’m sure there are things I will miss. It can get very confusing to what point I am trying to make so try and stay with me. This whole first section I didn’t even want to write, but my focus was supposed to be the second: Nation VS State of Israel.

There are many churches that spend a lot of time and energy supporting Israel, some even making it a center point of their church. People pray for Israel, wave the flag and vote for people who politically support Israel. This is not an article to say you should or should not support Israel as a Christian but rather to give a proper perspective if you choose to invest time and energy into support for Israel. I have seen too much ignorance in this area with the church blindly jumping on the support Israel bandwagon. Christians seem to think the state of Israel is the center of the universe that can do no wrong, and you need to support them at all costs and if you don’t you are not being a good Christian. I am going to attempt to change that view.
Lets take a look at the history of Israel.

Israel was birthed out of a promise to Abraham to make him a great nation(Genesis 12:2-3). It was his seed that would bring the Messiah to save the world. There were 12 Tribes of Israel that came from Jacob. It was through the Jews that the promise was preserved and the world was blessed. Israel was divided a long time before Christ. Judah mainly the southern kingdom and the rest the northern. The northern kingdom was scattered first and then the southern. It was only the southern kingdom that came back to the land, the rest has been scattered across the face of the earth. There are many stories to just who the 10 lost tribes of Israel are, but I don’t think it really matters. If being a Jew was a matter of blood and genetics than virtually anyone could be a Jew since people migrate and intermarry. But I will bring up this point later, that it is impossible that God cares more about genetics than he does about the believing heart.

Are the Jews God’s chosen people with a separate promise than the church? I have read both sides of this and have heard what people say when they disagree with replacement theology. We can find many scriptures that reveal the Jews as a race do have special promises to them that God can not break. (Deuteronomy 7:6-8) But God’s promises were always conditional, if they obeyed they inherited, if they did not obey they did not receive. All of Israel was promised the “promise land” but most never entered, they were cut off for unbelief. There is always a blessing and curse put before the promises.

A lot of prophecy in the bible talks about Israel, “The elect” and God’s “Chosen people”. A lot of it has been full filled, but the bible also talks about a future time where all Israel will be gathered back together. If you read the prophetic books esp revelation you will hear a lot about God’s chosen people, those he is redeeming for himself.
People are trying to tell me that all these promises are for the Jews of Present day and not Christians? This is a real problem for me when people try to take the promises of the bible and say that the church is separate from Israel. It cannot be true that all these promises in the bible are only for Jews just because they have Jewish blood and Jewish genetic code. Even if they hate God himself and deny Jesus as Lord they receive the promises?? On the contrary the bible says the opposite, the unbelieving Jews were always cut off. It is quite clear that God does not care if you have Jewish blood, you enter the promises if you are a believer. (Romans 2)

Romans 11
[sup]17 [/sup]But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the [sup][h][/sup]rich root of the olive tree, [sup]18 [/sup]do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. [sup]19 [/sup]You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” [sup]20 [/sup]Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; [sup]21 [/sup]for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [sup]22 [/sup]Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [sup]23 [/sup]And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. [sup]24 [/sup]For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Is it not clear that we are grafted in to believing Israel and share in the exact same promises? Unbelieving Israel is cut off unless they believe. Jesus was the final prophet to Israel and was rejected by most. There is no special salvation for those with Jewish blood, if they don’t believe in Jesus they share the same fate as the rest of the unbelieving world.
Go read the book of Joel and you will see it is a very prophetic book. It talks a lot of things to come in the age we are living in now and the end. Here is a sample of the very last passage:
Judah Will Be Blessed

[sup]18 [/sup]And in that day
The mountains will drip with [sup][j][/sup]sweet wine,
And the hills will flow with milk,
And all the brooks of Judah will flow with water;
And a spring will go out from the house of the Lord
To water the valley of [sup][k][/sup]Shittim.
[sup]19 [/sup]Egypt will become a waste,
And Edom will become a desolate wilderness,
Because of the violence [sup][l][/sup]done to the sons of Judah,
In whose land they have shed innocent blood.
[sup]20 [/sup]But Judah will be inhabited forever
And Jerusalem for all generations.
[sup]21 [/sup]And I will avenge their blood which I have not avenged,
For the Lord dwells in Zion.


If this passage is talking about the end, where is the church? The bible in most of it’s prophecy uses Hebrew words to describe everything and most of the end prophecy talks about Israel, Zion and Jerusalem. If the church is not included in these promises than it appears his church, his bride is cast away and God only cares about ….Israel. I think the correct view here is not replacement theology but rather Hybrid Theology as described in Romans 11. God has a bigger plan for what his people are that goes beyond race, but his people the chosen children are those who believe, the original Jews who believe and the Gentiles who have been grafted in thus creating a Hybrid Israel.

Romans 11:26
And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob.
Some people use this verse to think that Israel will be saved by some other way. Do they not realize that many Jews by blood have died not believing already and are in Hell? How than can all Israel be saved?

Mark 13:27
And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Matthew 24:31
And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Matthew 24:30-32 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Is this not the verse that Christians believe by to be raptured? Are Jews that hate Jesus going as well?

1 Peter 2:9
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Is peter talking about Jews only? Or believers whether Jew or Greek?
It is clear to me to me that God’s chosen special people, his elect, the apple of his eye are not Jews, but those who follow him and believe in Jesus. Jews were the chosen race in the old testament to bring about the messiah but then he gave them a new covenant with Jesus. It did not forfeit all the old promises but reinforced them. They still have to obey God and his new plan with Jesus in order to receive those promises.
Heb 8

A New Covenant
[sup]7 [/sup]For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. [sup]8 [/sup]For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
[sup][f][/sup]When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
[sup]9 [/sup]Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
[sup]10 [/sup]“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
[sup][g][/sup]I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
[sup]11 [/sup]“And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From [sup][h][/sup]the least to the greatest of them.
[sup]12 [/sup]“For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”

[sup]13 [i][/sup]When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is [sup][j][/sup]ready to disappear.

The same people that take certain promises and say that is for the Jew will they themselves take promises made to Jews and apply it to themselves. Verses such as:

Joel 2:27-29
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
[sup]27 [/sup]“Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the Lord your God,
And there is no other;
And My people will never be put to shame.

The Promise of the Spirit
[sup]28 [/sup][sup][a][/sup]It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all [sup][b][/sup]mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.
[sup]29 [/sup]“Even on the male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.


It is clear that the promise is for believers whether Jew or Greek even though it was spoken to Israel. So if this verse is for all than they all must be.

The promises of God are for Israel, those who believe in Jesus. We are Israel if we believe and even more, many of us probably have blood from the lost 10 tribes within us. But what about the Jews today that keep OT law but reject Jesus? The bible says Israel is not cast away and even a partial hardening has taken place. I believe God does care about the physical Jews as well by blood and honors those who still keep his old covenant. You can see they are blessed in how they live their lives. I think God makes special effort to show them Jesus so they will believed and be saved. At end of this I will reveal how I think there is a plan to save many more orthodox Jews. But to the Jews that don’t keep the law or believe in Jesus, they are the same as any other heathen. The bible is clear that keeping the law cannot bring salvation and the only way to God is through Jesus. If Jews could be saved by keeping the law than that means I could choose not to believe in Jesus and keep the law and be saved. That would than prove the bible to lie and say that there is another way to God than through Jesus. Orthodox Jews are still blessed and have purpose in what God is doing right now on the earth as we can see in the middle east. Scripture does point to God having a bit of TLC towards the original chosen race over gentiles, just as the scripture says for the Jew first than for the Gentile but in the end we will all the be the same if we believe the same.
Just so there is no confusion I must break this down even further.

There are promises in the bible that refer to OT Israel the blood Jews that have taken place already. Than there are future prophecies about Israel. I believe there are 2 types. Prophecy for all Israel, the chosen elect, all those grafted in referring to the future heavenly Kingdom and than there are some prophecy for the Jews as a Race from the old testament that needs to be fulfilled. I don’t want to confuse the two, I believe God has a plan for the Race of Jews as well on this physical earth in this “age” that we are living in. Most of my report is NOT referring to this. I’m not sure anyone can distinguish every single prophecy and say this one is for the Race of Jews and this one is for Israel. But what my point is that there are a great number of prophecies for Israel that are referring to the next age after Jesus comes back.

This is what I am mainly talking about that Non believing Jews or Gentiles will never enter that promise. Now in respects to God’s promises to the Race of Jews and the blood lineage God has a plan to but it is only for this age. There are many unbelieving Jews that have already died. If there is a promise to save ALL Israel the race of Jews that means in some future time most Jews will come to the saving knowledge of Jesus. And if there is a plan to bring them back to holy land than the race of Jews will come back. That has already partially happened, as you will see in my second part that it is not the true promise but perhaps a pre-cursor to the promise. And even if that is the case this is all temporal because everything will be made new and only the believers will enter the promise land in the next age.

Perhaps I just really confused things again in this last paragraph but my point is that there are much bigger promises for all of Israel that are eternal that we should be focusing on. It is Zionist propaganda that shape the view people have on Israel. They are the ones that say Israel is not the Church that is replacement theology. The Zionist view makes it seem that everything is about the race of Jews and the church is insignificant. This is the view I am trying to counter act, God is concerned with his chosen BELIEVERS Jews and Gentiles and has a plan to bring all the other Jews back to him through Jesus.


Nation of Israel VS State of Israel

This is where things really get messed if it weren’t messed all ready. The Nation of Israel from God’s perspective is 1. Believers in Jesus & 2. Jews by blood. A piece of land is not a Nation. The State of Israel is a modern day political entity and has little to do with true Israel. God is not concerned with politics of man and has some concern for land but not as much for people. People make up nations not land and politics.

This is key for understanding the modern state of Israel. People seem to think that God softened the hearts of the world’s leaders and gave the land back to Israel and think that fulfills the promises of the bible. Although this is part of God’s plan on the way to full fill the promise it did not go down quit like what most people think. If you have been reading my blog you will know that I write with the perspective that there is a New World Order conspiracy taking place to bring about global government. This is a Satanic agenda to bring about the anti-Christ. This may be a stretch for some people but hear me out. It is fact that the powers that brought the state of Israel into existence are the same people pushing for a NWO. These are evil people not Godly men, they are the same people that put Hitler into power and funded both sides of the war.

If you know anything about the NWO you will know that at the top they are Luciferians and are bending the world to bring about the anti Christ. A big part of them are Zionist Jews, that are not really Jews but Kabala mystics. Zionists are not Innocent Jews trying to get the holy land back, they are sinister major players of the NWO.

How is it that David Rockerfellar one of the biggest leaders in the NWO was instrumental bringing about the Jewish State (Belfour Declaration). The land that is now a Jewish State prior to 1948 was the Arab state of Palestine where people had been living for hundreds of years. They were not enemies of the Jews but some Jews even lived right alongside of Arabs in Palestine. It was the Zionist that pushed for a Jewish State and when they got it they sent in troops and carried out genocide on the Arabs. Yes the people who where the victims of the holocaust where now doing the same thing. They came to a foreign land and took it over killing many innocent people. And people wonder why Arabs hate Israel and fire rockets and blow up buses. The truth is Israel is guilty of far worse crimes than the Arabs. This is the true reason the west supports Israel because it is a NWO controlled state helping set up the global empire. For the most it has nothing to do with the “chosen” people returning to the promise land.

https://www.youtube....h?v=93bqFeGh9gI
https://www.youtube....h?v=LO7Am6sapxY
https://www.youtube....feature=related

The modern day state of Israel is not run by Christians, Believing Jews or even Orthodox Jews - but by western puppets and Kaballah Jews. Now why would the NWO be interested in setting up a Jewish state? Besides the obvious control of the middle east for Oil and resources, they also want to be able to control conflict in the region. It is rumored that the NWO is trying to fulfill biblical prophecy in order to bring about the Anti Christ. They know the bible has to be fulfilled in order to bring about the Anti Christ and Satan has tricked them to think he is going to win the final battle. The joke is on them and Satan, because God is using them to fulfill what He wrote in the Bible and God will win the last battle!

That is one THEORY and here is another of my own. I think Satan hates first the Orthodox Jew because they obey God’s law and brought the Messiah and then even more the Christian for inheriting the promise. It looks to me on the worlds stage anyhow he is going after Jews first. I believe that he is luring the Orthodox Jews into the holy land only to turn on them in one final battle to wipe them out. Is this not what was prophesied, that peace would be made with Israel then sudden destruction?(Daniel 9:24) You can see that even though this State of Israel in not a Godly state it is all part of God’s plan to full fill prophecy. I believe that when all this happens many of these Orthodox Jews will see the truth and come to the saving knowledge of Jesus.

There are many Orthodox Jews that do not agree or support this modern day state of Israel they know it is a sham.

http://www.jewsagain.../nyc12feb02.cfm

20,000 Orthodox Jews at a protest had signs that said this:
  • “Israel” does not represent world Jewry.
  • Rabbinical leaders fought Zionism since its inception.
  • Authentic Rabbis always opposed Zionism and the State of Israel.
  • Zionism have no right to rule over any part of the holy land.
  • No doubt! Herzl’s dream was a catastrophe for the Jews.
  • Zionism stole the name of Jews.
  • Jews mourn 53 years existence of “Israel”
  • True Jews will never recognize “Israel”
  • Torah Jewry is united against Zionism and the State of Israel.
  • Zionist ideology opposes the Creator
  • Oh No! Zionism will never succeed.
  • We are against “Israel” because we are Jews.
  • Zionism and Judaism are extreme opposites.
As you can see true Jews don’t support the state of Israel, so why should Christians?
It is appalling to see that Christians vote for and support politicians that support the state of Israel. They don’t even look at anything else the politician stands for, oh supports Israel! Here is my vote this must be a Godly man. It’s all a political game. People don’t even realize that we don’t live in a true democracy and that votes don’t even count. They think that there nation is blessed for siding with this state of Israel? I don’t think so, take America for instance, I hear all the time that God is blessing them for being a Godly Christian nation and because they support Israel. America is not a Christian nation. At one point it had many influential Christians that made it blessed, but that time is gone. It is now the most wicked country on the planet guilty of many great crimes against humanity in many senses way worse than Germany ever was. Even if Israel was what we thought it was God is not going to bless an entire nation in sin just on the sole fact that they politically support Israel. Judgment is coming for America and for the world.

To further drive my point home that this State of Israel is not blessed by God and is not even run by Orthodox Jews – take a look at the flag with the star of David on it. Do you ever wonder where they got this image? It is not Christian or Jewish. It is a newly introduced image that was put on the flag. It was never mentioned in the bible and the Jews have never used it before so why would it be on the flag? The truth is that the star of David is an occultic symbol taken from Jewish Mystics and Kabballah. They believe displaying their images everywhere gives them power to accomplish their plan. It would make sense they would use an Ocultic image on the flag since it was the zionist mystics who created the State of Israel. So remember this fact the next time you are flying the Israeli flag around in your church service that it is an occultic image offensive to true Jews!


The Hexagram

The so-called “Star of David” is essentially a “hexagram,” nothing more, nothing less. There is no Biblical or Jewish evidence that traces this ancient occult symbol with king David of Israel. However, there is evidence that it was used by king Solomon, after he turned to pagan gods and the occult, late in his life, causing God to become very angry with him .

A Masonic book called The Second Mile, an Eastern Star book, reveals that the “six pointed star is a very ancient symbol, and one of the most powerful.” The hexagram is used in magic, witchcraft, sorcery and occultism and the casting of zodiacal horoscopes by astrologers. “It was considered to posses mysterious powers,” says A Concise Cyclopedia of Freemasonry.

There is actually a Masonic Temple around the corner from my house that has the star of david above the door! I will try and take a pic and upload it to my blog.

http://judaism.about...starofdavid.htm
http://www.jesus-is-...ar_of_david.htm




So in conclusion we have learned that the promises for Israel are for all Believers in Christ not blood Jews, but unbelievers are cut off from the promises. The State of Israel is a creation of the NWO and does not represent true Jews or True Israel. With this all in mind if we as Christians are going to support Israel we should be opposed to the State of Israel and pray for the Nation of Israel in which we all as believers share inheritance. Pray and reach out to the Orthodox Jews so they come to the Saving knowledge of Jesus, this is where is it really matters, not that they have a physical land to call home, for truly this land is Gods and when it’s all said and done true Israel will inherit the “holy land” and the WHOLE EARTH.
 

teamventure

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2011
1,646
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ironic that your screen name is deception free.
to be anti Zionist is to be anti-Christ.

replacement theology is the tip to the ice-burg of anti-semetism.
want proof? Hitler believe in replacement theology.
 

Spirit Covenant

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Nov 5, 2012
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Should Christians Support Isreal?

Christians are Israel. Only those who have Christ as their King are Jews.

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

1 John 2
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
 

Rex

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Oct 17, 2012
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I'm just looking at your replies, when there are that many words I have a hunch its full of holes.
When words are many sin is not absent.
 

deceptionfree

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Nov 8, 2012
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I do not claim to have all the answers - and I must admit that I am probably wrong on some if not all of the points I am trying to make. However with that being said I am a Christian who has many things on my mind - things which I need to get off my mind by writing about. I want to learn and grow in my walk and I am looking to discuss hard topics - topics in which I myself struggle with - in order that I may learn from my fellow believers. Forgive me for not being perfect. But respect me for being bold and speaking my mind.
 

Groundzero

Not Afraid To Stand
Jul 20, 2011
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This can be a huge topic and I can not cover it all in one post, so I’m sure there are things I will miss. It can get very confusing to what point I am trying to make so try and stay with me. This whole first section I didn’t even want to write, but my focus was supposed to be the second: Nation VS State of Israel.

There are many churches that spend a lot of time and energy supporting Israel, some even making it a center point of their church. People pray for Israel, wave the flag and vote for people who politically support Israel. This is not an article to say you should or should not support Israel as a Christian but rather to give a proper perspective if you choose to invest time and energy into support for Israel. I have seen too much ignorance in this area with the church blindly jumping on the support Israel bandwagon. Christians seem to think the state of Israel is the center of the universe that can do no wrong, and you need to support them at all costs and if you don’t you are not being a good Christian. I am going to attempt to change that view.
Lets take a look at the history of Israel.

Israel was birthed out of a promise to Abraham to make him a great nation(Genesis 12:2-3). It was his seed that would bring the Messiah to save the world. There were 12 Tribes of Israel that came from Jacob. It was through the Jews that the promise was preserved and the world was blessed. Israel was divided a long time before Christ. Judah mainly the southern kingdom and the rest the northern. The northern kingdom was scattered first and then the southern. It was only the southern kingdom that came back to the land, the rest has been scattered across the face of the earth. There are many stories to just who the 10 lost tribes of Israel are, but I don’t think it really matters. If being a Jew was a matter of blood and genetics than virtually anyone could be a Jew since people migrate and intermarry. But I will bring up this point later, that it is impossible that God cares more about genetics than he does about the believing heart.

Are the Jews God’s chosen people with a separate promise than the church? I have read both sides of this and have heard what people say when they disagree with replacement theology. We can find many scriptures that reveal the Jews as a race do have special promises to them that God can not break. (Deuteronomy 7:6-8) But God’s promises were always conditional, if they obeyed they inherited, if they did not obey they did not receive. All of Israel was promised the “promise land” but most never entered, they were cut off for unbelief. There is always a blessing and curse put before the promises.

A lot of prophecy in the bible talks about Israel, “The elect” and God’s “Chosen people”. A lot of it has been full filled, but the bible also talks about a future time where all Israel will be gathered back together. If you read the prophetic books esp revelation you will hear a lot about God’s chosen people, those he is redeeming for himself.
People are trying to tell me that all these promises are for the Jews of Present day and not Christians? This is a real problem for me when people try to take the promises of the bible and say that the church is separate from Israel. It cannot be true that all these promises in the bible are only for Jews just because they have Jewish blood and Jewish genetic code. Even if they hate God himself and deny Jesus as Lord they receive the promises?? On the contrary the bible says the opposite, the unbelieving Jews were always cut off. It is quite clear that God does not care if you have Jewish blood, you enter the promises if you are a believer. (Romans 2)

Romans 11
[sup]17 [/sup]But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the [sup][h][/sup]rich root of the olive tree, [sup]18 [/sup]do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. [sup]19 [/sup]You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” [sup]20 [/sup]Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; [sup]21 [/sup]for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [sup]22 [/sup]Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [sup]23 [/sup]And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. [sup]24 [/sup]For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Is it not clear that we are grafted in to believing Israel and share in the exact same promises? Unbelieving Israel is cut off unless they believe. Jesus was the final prophet to Israel and was rejected by most. There is no special salvation for those with Jewish blood, if they don’t believe in Jesus they share the same fate as the rest of the unbelieving world.
Go read the book of Joel and you will see it is a very prophetic book. It talks a lot of things to come in the age we are living in now and the end. Here is a sample of the very last passage:
Judah Will Be Blessed

[sup]18 [/sup]And in that day
The mountains will drip with [sup][j][/sup]sweet wine,
And the hills will flow with milk,
And all the brooks of Judah will flow with water;
And a spring will go out from the house of the Lord
To water the valley of [sup][k][/sup]Shittim.
[sup]19 [/sup]Egypt will become a waste,
And Edom will become a desolate wilderness,
Because of the violence [sup][l][/sup]done to the sons of Judah,
In whose land they have shed innocent blood.
[sup]20 [/sup]But Judah will be inhabited forever
And Jerusalem for all generations.
[sup]21 [/sup]And I will avenge their blood which I have not avenged,
For the Lord dwells in Zion.


If this passage is talking about the end, where is the church? The bible in most of it’s prophecy uses Hebrew words to describe everything and most of the end prophecy talks about Israel, Zion and Jerusalem. If the church is not included in these promises than it appears his church, his bride is cast away and God only cares about ….Israel. I think the correct view here is not replacement theology but rather Hybrid Theology as described in Romans 11. God has a bigger plan for what his people are that goes beyond race, but his people the chosen children are those who believe, the original Jews who believe and the Gentiles who have been grafted in thus creating a Hybrid Israel.

Romans 11:26
And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob.
Some people use this verse to think that Israel will be saved by some other way. Do they not realize that many Jews by blood have died not believing already and are in Hell? How than can all Israel be saved?

Mark 13:27
And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Matthew 24:31
And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Matthew 24:30-32 (in Context) Matthew 24 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Is this not the verse that Christians believe by to be raptured? Are Jews that hate Jesus going as well?

1 Peter 2:9
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Is peter talking about Jews only? Or believers whether Jew or Greek?
It is clear to me to me that God’s chosen special people, his elect, the apple of his eye are not Jews, but those who follow him and believe in Jesus. Jews were the chosen race in the old testament to bring about the messiah but then he gave them a new covenant with Jesus. It did not forfeit all the old promises but reinforced them. They still have to obey God and his new plan with Jesus in order to receive those promises.
Heb 8

A New Covenant
[sup]7 [/sup]For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. [sup]8 [/sup]For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
[sup][f][/sup]When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
[sup]9 [/sup]Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
[sup]10 [/sup]“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
[sup][g][/sup]I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
[sup]11 [/sup]“And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From [sup][h][/sup]the least to the greatest of them.
[sup]12 [/sup]“For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”

[sup]13 [i][/sup]When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is [sup][j][/sup]ready to disappear.

The same people that take certain promises and say that is for the Jew will they themselves take promises made to Jews and apply it to themselves. Verses such as:

Joel 2:27-29
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
[sup]27 [/sup]“Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the Lord your God,
And there is no other;
And My people will never be put to shame.

The Promise of the Spirit
[sup]28 [/sup][sup][a][/sup]It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all [sup][b][/sup]mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.
[sup]29 [/sup]“Even on the male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.


It is clear that the promise is for believers whether Jew or Greek even though it was spoken to Israel. So if this verse is for all than they all must be.

The promises of God are for Israel, those who believe in Jesus. We are Israel if we believe and even more, many of us probably have blood from the lost 10 tribes within us. But what about the Jews today that keep OT law but reject Jesus? The bible says Israel is not cast away and even a partial hardening has taken place. I believe God does care about the physical Jews as well by blood and honors those who still keep his old covenant. You can see they are blessed in how they live their lives. I think God makes special effort to show them Jesus so they will believed and be saved. At end of this I will reveal how I think there is a plan to save many more orthodox Jews. But to the Jews that don’t keep the law or believe in Jesus, they are the same as any other heathen. The bible is clear that keeping the law cannot bring salvation and the only way to God is through Jesus. If Jews could be saved by keeping the law than that means I could choose not to believe in Jesus and keep the law and be saved. That would than prove the bible to lie and say that there is another way to God than through Jesus. Orthodox Jews are still blessed and have purpose in what God is doing right now on the earth as we can see in the middle east. Scripture does point to God having a bit of TLC towards the original chosen race over gentiles, just as the scripture says for the Jew first than for the Gentile but in the end we will all the be the same if we believe the same.
Just so there is no confusion I must break this down even further.

There are promises in the bible that refer to OT Israel the blood Jews that have taken place already. Than there are future prophecies about Israel. I believe there are 2 types. Prophecy for all Israel, the chosen elect, all those grafted in referring to the future heavenly Kingdom and than there are some prophecy for the Jews as a Race from the old testament that needs to be fulfilled. I don’t want to confuse the two, I believe God has a plan for the Race of Jews as well on this physical earth in this “age” that we are living in. Most of my report is NOT referring to this. I’m not sure anyone can distinguish every single prophecy and say this one is for the Race of Jews and this one is for Israel. But what my point is that there are a great number of prophecies for Israel that are referring to the next age after Jesus comes back.

This is what I am mainly talking about that Non believing Jews or Gentiles will never enter that promise. Now in respects to God’s promises to the Race of Jews and the blood lineage God has a plan to but it is only for this age. There are many unbelieving Jews that have already died. If there is a promise to save ALL Israel the race of Jews that means in some future time most Jews will come to the saving knowledge of Jesus. And if there is a plan to bring them back to holy land than the race of Jews will come back. That has already partially happened, as you will see in my second part that it is not the true promise but perhaps a pre-cursor to the promise. And even if that is the case this is all temporal because everything will be made new and only the believers will enter the promise land in the next age.

Perhaps I just really confused things again in this last paragraph but my point is that there are much bigger promises for all of Israel that are eternal that we should be focusing on. It is Zionist propaganda that shape the view people have on Israel. They are the ones that say Israel is not the Church that is replacement theology. The Zionist view makes it seem that everything is about the race of Jews and the church is insignificant. This is the view I am trying to counter act, God is concerned with his chosen BELIEVERS Jews and Gentiles and has a plan to bring all the other Jews back to him through Jesus.


Nation of Israel VS State of Israel

This is where things really get messed if it weren’t messed all ready. The Nation of Israel from God’s perspective is 1. Believers in Jesus & 2. Jews by blood. A piece of land is not a Nation. The State of Israel is a modern day political entity and has little to do with true Israel. God is not concerned with politics of man and has some concern for land but not as much for people. People make up nations not land and politics.

This is key for understanding the modern state of Israel. People seem to think that God softened the hearts of the world’s leaders and gave the land back to Israel and think that fulfills the promises of the bible. Although this is part of God’s plan on the way to full fill the promise it did not go down quit like what most people think. If you have been reading my blog you will know that I write with the perspective that there is a New World Order conspiracy taking place to bring about global government. This is a Satanic agenda to bring about the anti-Christ. This may be a stretch for some people but hear me out. It is fact that the powers that brought the state of Israel into existence are the same people pushing for a NWO. These are evil people not Godly men, they are the same people that put Hitler into power and funded both sides of the war.

If you know anything about the NWO you will know that at the top they are Luciferians and are bending the world to bring about the anti Christ. A big part of them are Zionist Jews, that are not really Jews but Kabala mystics. Zionists are not Innocent Jews trying to get the holy land back, they are sinister major players of the NWO.

How is it that David Rockerfellar one of the biggest leaders in the NWO was instrumental bringing about the Jewish State (Belfour Declaration). The land that is now a Jewish State prior to 1948 was the Arab state of Palestine where people had been living for hundreds of years. They were not enemies of the Jews but some Jews even lived right alongside of Arabs in Palestine. It was the Zionist that pushed for a Jewish State and when they got it they sent in troops and carried out genocide on the Arabs. Yes the people who where the victims of the holocaust where now doing the same thing. They came to a foreign land and took it over killing many innocent people. And people wonder why Arabs hate Israel and fire rockets and blow up buses. The truth is Israel is guilty of far worse crimes than the Arabs. This is the true reason the west supports Israel because it is a NWO controlled state helping set up the global empire. For the most it has nothing to do with the “chosen” people returning to the promise land.

https://www.youtube....h?v=93bqFeGh9gI
https://www.youtube....h?v=LO7Am6sapxY
https://www.youtube....feature=related

The modern day state of Israel is not run by Christians, Believing Jews or even Orthodox Jews - but by western puppets and Kaballah Jews. Now why would the NWO be interested in setting up a Jewish state? Besides the obvious control of the middle east for Oil and resources, they also want to be able to control conflict in the region. It is rumored that the NWO is trying to fulfill biblical prophecy in order to bring about the Anti Christ. They know the bible has to be fulfilled in order to bring about the Anti Christ and Satan has tricked them to think he is going to win the final battle. The joke is on them and Satan, because God is using them to fulfill what He wrote in the Bible and God will win the last battle!

That is one THEORY and here is another of my own. I think Satan hates first the Orthodox Jew because they obey God’s law and brought the Messiah and then even more the Christian for inheriting the promise. It looks to me on the worlds stage anyhow he is going after Jews first. I believe that he is luring the Orthodox Jews into the holy land only to turn on them in one final battle to wipe them out. Is this not what was prophesied, that peace would be made with Israel then sudden destruction?(Daniel 9:24) You can see that even though this State of Israel in not a Godly state it is all part of God’s plan to full fill prophecy. I believe that when all this happens many of these Orthodox Jews will see the truth and come to the saving knowledge of Jesus.

There are many Orthodox Jews that do not agree or support this modern day state of Israel they know it is a sham.

http://www.jewsagain.../nyc12feb02.cfm

20,000 Orthodox Jews at a protest had signs that said this:
  • “Israel” does not represent world Jewry.
  • Rabbinical leaders fought Zionism since its inception.
  • Authentic Rabbis always opposed Zionism and the State of Israel.
  • Zionism have no right to rule over any part of the holy land.
  • No doubt! Herzl’s dream was a catastrophe for the Jews.
  • Zionism stole the name of Jews.
  • Jews mourn 53 years existence of “Israel”
  • True Jews will never recognize “Israel”
  • Torah Jewry is united against Zionism and the State of Israel.
  • Zionist ideology opposes the Creator
  • Oh No! Zionism will never succeed.
  • We are against “Israel” because we are Jews.
  • Zionism and Judaism are extreme opposites.
As you can see true Jews don’t support the state of Israel, so why should Christians?
It is appalling to see that Christians vote for and support politicians that support the state of Israel. They don’t even look at anything else the politician stands for, oh supports Israel! Here is my vote this must be a Godly man. It’s all a political game. People don’t even realize that we don’t live in a true democracy and that votes don’t even count. They think that there nation is blessed for siding with this state of Israel? I don’t think so, take America for instance, I hear all the time that God is blessing them for being a Godly Christian nation and because they support Israel. America is not a Christian nation. At one point it had many influential Christians that made it blessed, but that time is gone. It is now the most wicked country on the planet guilty of many great crimes against humanity in many senses way worse than Germany ever was. Even if Israel was what we thought it was God is not going to bless an entire nation in sin just on the sole fact that they politically support Israel. Judgment is coming for America and for the world.

To further drive my point home that this State of Israel is not blessed by God and is not even run by Orthodox Jews – take a look at the flag with the star of David on it. Do you ever wonder where they got this image? It is not Christian or Jewish. It is a newly introduced image that was put on the flag. It was never mentioned in the bible and the Jews have never used it before so why would it be on the flag? The truth is that the star of David is an occultic symbol taken from Jewish Mystics and Kabballah. They believe displaying their images everywhere gives them power to accomplish their plan. It would make sense they would use an Ocultic image on the flag since it was the zionist mystics who created the State of Israel. So remember this fact the next time you are flying the Israeli flag around in your church service that it is an occultic image offensive to true Jews!


The Hexagram

The so-called “Star of David” is essentially a “hexagram,” nothing more, nothing less. There is no Biblical or Jewish evidence that traces this ancient occult symbol with king David of Israel. However, there is evidence that it was used by king Solomon, after he turned to pagan gods and the occult, late in his life, causing God to become very angry with him .

A Masonic book called The Second Mile, an Eastern Star book, reveals that the “six pointed star is a very ancient symbol, and one of the most powerful.” The hexagram is used in magic, witchcraft, sorcery and occultism and the casting of zodiacal horoscopes by astrologers. “It was considered to posses mysterious powers,” says A Concise Cyclopedia of Freemasonry.

There is actually a Masonic Temple around the corner from my house that has the star of david above the door! I will try and take a pic and upload it to my blog.

http://judaism.about...starofdavid.htm
http://www.jesus-is-...ar_of_david.htm




So in conclusion we have learned that the promises for Israel are for all Believers in Christ not blood Jews, but unbelievers are cut off from the promises. The State of Israel is a creation of the NWO and does not represent true Jews or True Israel. With this all in mind if we as Christians are going to support Israel we should be opposed to the State of Israel and pray for the Nation of Israel in which we all as believers share inheritance. Pray and reach out to the Orthodox Jews so they come to the Saving knowledge of Jesus, this is where is it really matters, not that they have a physical land to call home, for truly this land is Gods and when it’s all said and done true Israel will inherit the “holy land” and the WHOLE EARTH.

Well, I'll be honest, I haven't read ALL your post because I'm in a hurry. But if you take a look at the history of Israel, I find it hard to believe that God's hand was NOT involved. Against all odds, the nation of Israel still exist today, and it's not because of man. It's because of God.
The promise God gave to Abraham is still ringing true today.

Gen_12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Where is Babylon? Assyria? Even Rome? Nazi Germany?
Israel is evidence of an Almighty God.
 

Justin Mangonel

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Hi DF,

I think your article was well written. I do believe that Israel are God's people as a whole at this point because they are blinded in part and do not follow him.

This all boils down to the scripture about the gentles being grafted into the natural olive tree. In my view, the gentiles are not Israel because they had to be removed so that we could be put in. There is a time where will will be taken out and they will be grafted in though and then they will again be followers of God.

Only in a secondary and spiritual sense do their promise apply to the the gentiles.
 

Foreigner

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But if you take a look at the history of Israel, I find it hard to believe that God's hand was NOT involved. Against all odds, the nation of Israel still exist today, and it's not because of man. It's because of God.
The promise God gave to Abraham is still ringing true today.

Gen_12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Where is Babylon? Assyria? Even Rome? Nazi Germany?
Israel is evidence of an Almighty God.

-- Exactly. Well said.

God said that Israel was His beloved and He would always be with His people.
 

Selene

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Personally, I think that as Christians, we should work in building peace in the Middle East. God loves all people and desires all people to come to know Him and His Son Jesus Christ.
 

Foreigner

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Unfortunately, according to Scripture, there isn't going to be peace in the Middle East.

In the meantime, how exactly does one work towards peace with someone who states that your nation has no right to exist and feels the practice of launching suicide bombers and rockets at civilian centers to target innocent non-combatants is "acceptable to Allah" if not "Allah's will?"
 

Groundzero

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Peace will never come to the world, much less the Middle East until Jesus returns. In fact, the last, greatest battle on Earth, will take place in the Middle East, so I couldn't even be bothered thinking about peace in the Middle East, because unless Jesus returns, it'll be the false peace of the anti-christ, and I'm not interested in that.
 

Rach1370

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I believe that the Bible teaches that as Christians, we are God's chosen people. Paul is very clear on that. But, I also believe that Paul speaks of a time when God will return ethic Israel to him...through Christ. Romans 11 speaks separately of gentile believers plus Christian Jews (he puts these two together as 'elect'...counting himself among the Jewish remnant), but then goes on to clearly speak of ethic Israel...not gentile believers, not the 'remnant' of Jews who believe in Jesus...but those who God 'hardened' until the 'full number of Gentiles had come in' as to shower the world with 'riches when they were finally fully included'.
God is not done with national Israel yet...and I believe fully what ZebraHug said.....if not for God's hand, what are the chances of a nation so universally persecuted, surviving and coming back to the land God gave their forefathers? Pretty incredible!
 

Selene

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Unfortunately, according to Scripture, there isn't going to be peace in the Middle East.

In the meantime, how exactly does one work towards peace with someone who states that your nation has no right to exist and feels the practice of launching suicide bombers and rockets at civilian centers to target innocent non-combatants is "acceptable to Allah" if not "Allah's will?"

As Christians, we should still work on building peace. I don't think every single Palestinian wants to live that way. I'm sure that they are getting tired of the wars. In the Middle East, people are starting to come to the realization that their problems and poverty is much more than Israel and the United States. They are coming to realize that their long time leaders have been keeping them at poverty level while they enjoy the wealth. The people of Egypt have rebelled against their own government and Libya has done the same. Syria is already in a civil war.

I believe that the Bible teaches that as Christians, we are God's chosen people. Paul is very clear on that. But, I also believe that Paul speaks of a time when God will return ethic Israel to him...through Christ. Romans 11 speaks separately of gentile believers plus Christian Jews (he puts these two together as 'elect'...counting himself among the Jewish remnant), but then goes on to clearly speak of ethic Israel...not gentile believers, not the 'remnant' of Jews who believe in Jesus...but those who God 'hardened' until the 'full number of Gentiles had come in' as to shower the world with 'riches when they were finally fully included'.
God is not done with national Israel yet...and I believe fully what ZebraHug said.....if not for God's hand, what are the chances of a nation so universally persecuted, surviving and coming back to the land God gave their forefathers? Pretty incredible!

The Jews are still God's chosen people. God never goes back on His promise. He called Israel to be His chosen people, and they are still His chosen people. The calling of God is irrevocable. So, when God called Israel to be His chosen people, that calling is irrevocable. God will not take back His promises or His calling.

Romans 11:25-29 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is [fn] my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
 

Episkopos

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I think that most Christians don't see any difference between Judaism and being Jewish and Zionism and being a nationalist Israeli.

In Jesus' day there were the zealots (nationalists). Did Christians ally themselves with the zealots?
 

teamventure

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Well, I'll be honest, I haven't read ALL your post because I'm in a hurry. But if you take a look at the history of Israel, I find it hard to believe that God's hand was NOT involved. Against all odds, the nation of Israel still exist today, and it's not because of man. It's because of God.
The promise God gave to Abraham is still ringing true today.

Gen_12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Where is Babylon? Assyria? Even Rome? Nazi Germany?
Israel is evidence of an Almighty God.


see, we agree on most things. ;)
 

Rach1370

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The Jews are still God's chosen people. God never goes back on His promise. He called Israel to be His chosen people, and they are still His chosen people. The calling of God is irrevocable. So, when God called Israel to be His chosen people, that calling is irrevocable. God will not take back His promises or His calling.

Romans 11:25-29 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is [fn] my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

I never said they were no longer God's chosen people, and I most certainly never said God goes back on his promises! What I was trying to illustrate is that God's plans are for all to come to him. He chose to 'partially' harden the Jews until such a time that 'all' the Gentiles he has called to himself have 'come in'.

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,...


Here Paul says that while a 'remnant' of Jews come to believe in Jesus, God's promise to them as a people is still living. He goes on to say that the 'rest' of Israel failed to obtain these 'promises', which were instead handed to the 'elect'...the Jews were instead hardened...


So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!...

Paul asks...if the 'rest' of the Jews are hardened...does that mean they are completely excluded from God's promise to their forefathers? He says no! He tells us that it is all part of God's plan. He hardened the Jews so that salvation may come to the Gentiles...and that the very act of that grace towards the Gentiles would eventually stir the Jews to return to God.

And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

Paul tells us that any Jew who comes to believe in Jesus will be welcomed to the elect. We know from Romans 11 that at the end of human history God will in fact call many, many Jews back to him...graft them in again. Indeed, he regards the Jewish people favourably because of their 'forefathers'...it's for their sake that he will not forsake the Jews, and will eventually bring them home to him.

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;



As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
 

Rex

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But, I also believe that Paul speaks of a time when God will return ethic Israel to him...through Christ. Romans 11 speaks separately of gentile believers plus

I'm not so sure about that single passage being interpreted as ethnic salvation
But I can find plenty of contrary passages
Here's a few in another thread
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17103-the-he-of-daniel-927/#entry174818
 

Rocky Wiley

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All of Israel shall be saved. Who are all of Israel?

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not Israel, which are of Israel.
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham are they all children: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 For he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit , and not in the letter;

We conclude then that the 'all' Israel Paul was speaking of would be saved and also all that have and will come to the faith, Jew and Gentile, will still be saved and called the children of God.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Jesus will not return to the Jew, they must turn to him.
 

Rach1370

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I'm not so sure about that single passage being interpreted as ethnic salvation
But I can find plenty of contrary passages
Here's a few in another thread
http://www.christian...27/#entry174818

Granted, the passage could be talking about 'all Israel' being saved through the remnant. But honestly, I see the most straight forward reading of the passage to describe a future 'revival' of the Jewish people.
Christians now are indeed 'spiritual' Israel, but in the passage we see Paul talking of two different groups. He divides it into 'elect' which covers Gentile believers and the Jewish remnant of his day.

Consider these verses:

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. (Romans 11:28-31 ESV)

He is clearly speaking of 'unbelieving' Israel...as he also has been above, with the references to 'natural olive branches'. Here he says that the unbelief of Israel has benefited the Gentiles, i.e., this is the period of history in which Gentiles are being saved, while most of Israel remains in unbelief. But God’s electing promise given to their forefathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be fulfilled in the future. This, again, is the most natural reading of the passage, especially in light of what Paul has already said in the passage:

Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! (Romans 11:12 ESV)

And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. (Romans 11:23-24 ESV)

It seems to me that Paul here is teaching that in the future, God will bring many (not all) of ethnic Israel into 'spiritual' Israel...ie, the elect. Think of it...at the beginning of history, God chose the Jews to be his people. Most of them followed God and where therefore 'elect' through his grace...but even then we know that not all of Israel was saved...God has always had a 'remnant' of elect in Israel. In the time where Israel was God's chosen people, we still see a very few Gentiles becoming saved...Rahab, for example, or Ruth. As verse 28-31 says...this was the time when we (the Gentiles) were 'disobedient' and they (Israel) received mercy. But now, due to God's wonderful plan, through their disobedience we, the Gentiles, have received his grace and mercy for a time....until the 'fullness of the Gentiles have come in'. We see now, that just as in the time when Israel was God's chosen, and some Gentiles were saved, now the majority of 'elect' comes from Gentiles, but we do still have some Jewish Christians...the 'remnant'. Paul goes on to show us how, at the end, all of this will 'even out' so to speak. God will open the hearts of many Jews, and they will finally see Jesus as the Messiah they have been waiting for! God will use the very mercy he's given to Gentiles, to welcome Israel back to him, to his mercy. Not through their deserving of it, but by grace...of course through grace!


Anyway....that's my current reading of the passage. But I do feel I need to add this: I could be wrong!!! I'm reading up on the passage and topic (in light of the current conflict) and I have no doubt that if I'm wrong God will direct me. But at the moment, this is my honest take on the passage. It just seems to me that God is not yet done with ethnic Israel...not just because of this verse (although mostly!), but because of the amazing fact that the Jews are once again in the land given to their forefathers...they are there, and they are standing! Kind of amazing right there! But I'll continue to watch, read, pray and hopefully learn. If I'm wrong, that's cool, because clearly God's plans are better than my own expectations!
 

Rex

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Oct 17, 2012
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I'm glad to here your looking, in my younger years I went over this as well. What I would encourage you to do is make certain all the pieces fit.
your presentation and understanding has to include the other verse as well or else the complete word and understanding has become void and useless.

Many have taken this verse found in Romans 11 and neglected the others.

Like Romans 9:6
Matthew 3:9
Gal 3:6

But I'm confident that He who has began a good work in you shall complete it.
Phil 1:6
That you may be made complete in Him
Col 2:8-10

It's not Gal 3:6 above
It should be
Gal 3:16

Funny how necessary 3:6 is as well
Maybe its not a mistake at all :)