Well, we know how the early believers responded to persecution: They prayed for their persecutors as they were being fed to lions or burned alive.
Should I buy a sword?
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WWJD = What would Jesus do
Some Christian preppers say the Church will go through the Tribulation and there will be those who survive to come out the other side.
If I had a supply of food and hungry people wanted to take it, I would just let them. But if I had a family of children I am not sure what I would do.
Ah, the pre, post, mid, pre-wrath debate.
Here is question/claim that those who reject pre have trouble answering.
'Today' we are SEALED with the HS Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30, Gal 3:2 once we believe, trust the 1 Cor 15:1-4 Gospel taught to Paul by Christ Gal 1:11-12.
Once SEALED where does Paul teach a believer can become UNsealed ? Nowhere that I know of.
In the trib a person who takes the 'mark' goes to the 'lake of fire'
See the problem ? If a believer is SEALED then how can they be sent to the fire ?
Your thoughts ?
Wrangler
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Wrangler
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The Christian ethos is about giving not, allowing oneself to be a victim, "letting" criminals take.
I would say that all are saved through the work of the Holy Spirit, but not all are filled with (sealed by) the Holy Spirit.
There is too much disparity among Christians for me to think otherwise.
In the Laodicean church there were "lukewarm" believers and "overcomers" (Rev 3:14-22)
Paul speaks of those whose lives are built on truth and those who will be saved but "so as by fire".
1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Do you think everyone who goes through the Tribulation takes the 'mark'?I am not sure how as Christians we could justify not sharing food with other people who are starving, even at the cost of our own family's suffering.
Not sure I am a good enough Christian to carry that out ... but I think it is what Jesus would do.
One might think so and yet somehow we muddle through without a glock in the glovebox
Rockerduck
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That first line is not correct. "For by Grace your are saved by Faith". You received the Holy Spirit and were sealed. The filling of the Holy Spirit is different. You can't be filled without have the redemptive seal of the Holy Spirit. The filling is for a purpose to accomplish. Acts 4:8. Peter had received the Apostles power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
I suppose some might read it that way ... I do not because it just isn't what is happening in the Church. It is evident that some are "full of the Holy Spirit" and others are just lukewarm believers. The Scriptures distinguish these different groups in a number of places, such as Mat 13:22-23, Mat 25:1-13, 1 Cor 3:11-15, Rev 3:14-22.
Wrangler
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Give. Take. Not the same. See Matthew 25. The parable is NOT the 5 wise virgins giving the foolish virgins oil they ‘need.’
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
None of those scriptures have to do with those whom are sealed by the Holy Spirit. In Matthew 13 if you are saved and chasing riches instead of God, you are in the thorns of life. Matthew 25 is between the saved and unsaved. 1 Cor. 3 , well are you saved or not. and Rev 3 once again if you are in the thorns, you need to stop it, and submit to Christ.
Gray_Joy
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PS95
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I think there will always be differing opinions on this topic amongst Christians. I understand the way you are thinking as I also once thought the same way. Personally, I find the phrase "born again Christian" to be redundant. I agree that we should trust God first and foremost. But your verse is not speaking about owning a firearm but as a principle to follow. It's up to you if you want to read that into it.
I am actually leaning on my understanding of scripture as it has been revealed to me. I will try to explain that below so bear with me please?
I have to ask you though- In your mind
1. a police officer can not be a Christian?
A body guard can't be a Christian?
A security guard can't be a Christian?
the centurion?
and so on?
These men? www.fcpo.org
2.Owning a gun is not what Jesus means by "those who live by the sword die by the sword"- the person who lives by the sword or any weapon is an aggressive person who seeks out violence- a larger principle is here- those who commit themselves to violence as their way of life invite similar consequences.
The Christian who stops this evil is not sinning. Peter initiated violence and Peter was wrong to do that. The only thing that was to become of that was retaliation and escalation of violence. -Jesus corrected him and told him that he Had to fulfill his purpose. - If Jesus had not, many, including his disciples would have been killed. We are not speaking about the same scenario at all.
An evildoer who initiates violence is bent on a life of violence is savagely slaughtering others yes- he will indeed also die by the sword. <- That is Jesus was saying.
3.Rahab broke God's commandment not to lie. She was not called a sinner for that, but the opposite. Her lie saved the lives of the spies.
4. I was raised in the JW pacifist cult- Policemen can not be baptized as Jws- nor military or anyone with a gun. I was taught from very young never to break God's laws, and I agreed of course.
So, in Acts 15 where the apostles wrote to abstain from blood, I assumed I was being taught properly that God meant no blood transfusions were allowed ever under any circumstances. I never questioned that until one day--
I had been starting to have questions about some things I had been taught- Never about transfusions though. I was praying and reading my bible without the use of watchtower magazines which was forbidden. I had asked God for HIS truth no matter what it was. -
Anyway, one day as I was reading I came across Matt 12 and as I read my mind was suddenly hearing and knowing without a doubt that God's laws are for our good & not to harm us. While Jws were busy believing they were sacrificing their own lives and the life of others including their own children- that they had totally forgotten MERCY and replaced it with bodily sacrifice.
Of course the bible is silent on transfusions and of course you are not "eating" anything when being transfused, nor can what goes into your mouth defile anyone etc.. But the only thing I had revealed to me that day was MERCY- That God's laws were meant for good and never to overburden us. Even If it was considered eating blood in order to save a life there would be an exception because of mercy.
Jws put God's law above mercy. The sanctity of life is put far below the symbol of life. The religion causes people to die needlessly because the of God's law in the bible - they need to just die or disobey God's law instead of giving a bleeding person a transfusion which is merciful. Mercy not sacrifice is what God wants.
Would you work to get your oxen out of the pit on the Sabbath?
You believe that God's laws must be adhered to at all times no matter what? Before you answer that please read- Did Jesus have to teach the Pharisees what God's laws were about? Would you work to get your oxen out of the pit on the Sabbath?
Is it loving to watch little children being slaughtered by a madman as long as you don't break God's law? THINK!
5-
Matt 12
1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. 2But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.” 3But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions, 4how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?
5“Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent? 6“But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here. 7“But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
------
How much more are children worth than an ox? Do we spare the life of the evildoer at the expense of them?
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Luke 14
1It happened that when He went into the house of one of the leaders of the Pharisees on the Sabbath to eat bread, they were watching Him closely. 2And there in front of Him was a man suffering from dropsy. 3And Jesus answered and spoke to the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath, or not?” 4But they kept silent. And He took hold of him and healed him, and sent him away. 5And He said to them, “Which one of you will have a son or an ox fall into a well, and will not immediately pull him out on a Sabbath day?” 6And they could make no reply to this.
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If a cop came to the scene of a mass shooting in a school and shot the criminal would you thank him & God for protecting you and your children or call him a sinner? Did God send him? Would you be the guy hiding behind the desk calling the police while children are being slaughtered by an evildoer?
-How about your neighbor is he a sinner for saving lives? How about your Christian neighbor?
Does God want us protected from evildoers where the sword is not used vain? -Romans- 13
continued--
PS95
Well-Known Member
Psalm 82:4--
Rescue the weak and needy; save them from the hand of the wicked.
No pressure- no harm no foul - I understand why you said what you did. I once thought the same way. Maybe this will help you to see it in a different light.
Maybe not. I make no judgments here. Each person must be fully convinced.
IMO a Christian who owns a gun is not intending to use it for harm but for good. His heart is not bent on wickedness but precisely the opposite.
Now if a person entered my home unarmed and was hungry or attempting to take my cloak- I would not shoot him.
Also- have you considered that a gun many times is enough of a deterrent to stop evil? Also, that a gun can be used not to kill but to injure hence stopping him?
There are people who go overboard with their idea of when a gun should be used- that will always be-
but a true Christian does use discernment and does obey God in all things.
Only God will judge.
last thought- thanks for bearing with me even though you may disagree.
ONE month after the Lord revealed mercy to me in the scriptures about transfusions
- my young husband was in a terrible crash on his way home from work- I was pregnant with our 2nd child- He was 27.
He was in very critical condition and bled profusely at the scene and also had internal bleeding in multiple areas, as well. He also needed several surgeries asap, but some would have to wait.
When I got to the hospital they allowed me to see him just briefly as they were off to surgery, as I bent to kiss him I was covered in his blood. No one thought he would survive.
He was given 26 transfusions of red cells. I had zero guilt - total peace. My JW family showed up to condemn me for forsaking God's law. They said if God wanted him to die I should have let him and that I needed to repent.
They had no impact on me. I truly understood that mercy was before sacrifice.- Praise God.
A month in the hospital- and an induced coma- my husband came home and we had a beautiful baby boy.
Can you imagine if God did not teach me mercy?
What is merciful? Saving the lives of countless innocent people by injuring or even stopping an evildoer? That is not revenge- it's stopping carnage.
No true Christian wants to injure anyone. He does not own a gun with evil intent.
The evildoer does.
The heart's intention does indeed matter to God.
If a person wanted to kill me if I didn't deny Christ I would die. ( I hope!)
The other scenario is very different.
At the very least I hope this helps you to understand another view of a fellow Christian.
Wrangler
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This topic? LOL IMO, one of the most vibrant aspects of Christianity is debating everything, which is iron sharpens iron, and deepens our faith, not blind but open eyed from the debates.
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Some people try to claim that Jesus wanted His disciples to arm themselves, to have weapons for self defense.
But when Jesus said buy a sword, and the disciples replied they had two swords, Jesus said that was enough.
Thus, the swords were not for self defense or for killing those who attack. Two swords would not be nearly enough to combat the Roman soldiers who were coming to arrest Jesus.
In fact, when Peter used his sword to cut off someone’s ear, Jesus healed the ear and scolded Peter to put away his sword.
Jesus condemned weaponry by saying that all who use the sword will perish by the sword.
Those two swords were enough for Jesus to be reckoned among the transgressors. The Roman soldiers could see the swords and arrest Jesus for being an instigator of armed rebellion against the empire.
"Jesus reckoned among the transgressors" refers to the fulfillment of prophecy (Isaiah 53:12) where Jesus was treated, condemned, and executed as a common criminal, specifically by being crucified between two thieves. This act represents his deep identification with sinful humanity, substituting himself in the place of sinners to achieve atonement and reconciliation with God.
Luke 22
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
But when Jesus said buy a sword, and the disciples replied they had two swords, Jesus said that was enough.
Thus, the swords were not for self defense or for killing those who attack. Two swords would not be nearly enough to combat the Roman soldiers who were coming to arrest Jesus.
In fact, when Peter used his sword to cut off someone’s ear, Jesus healed the ear and scolded Peter to put away his sword.
Jesus condemned weaponry by saying that all who use the sword will perish by the sword.
Those two swords were enough for Jesus to be reckoned among the transgressors. The Roman soldiers could see the swords and arrest Jesus for being an instigator of armed rebellion against the empire.
"Jesus reckoned among the transgressors" refers to the fulfillment of prophecy (Isaiah 53:12) where Jesus was treated, condemned, and executed as a common criminal, specifically by being crucified between two thieves. This act represents his deep identification with sinful humanity, substituting himself in the place of sinners to achieve atonement and reconciliation with God.
Luke 22
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
Gray_Joy
Member
Why?
What did Jesus do to offenders,enemies, in his first testimony? The Tanakh.
As to so called Preppers,that's in the Bible too.
Proverbs 21:20 Precious treasure and oil are in a wise man's dwelling, but a foolish man devours it.
1Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
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