Should The Church Keep Secrets From People... Biblically Speaking?

[soul man]

DISCLAIMER: This is not a thread to vilify or otherwise defame the Vatican as I have the utmost fear of the Lord and respect all churches established to worship him. Moreover, I was raised mostly going to Catholic churches, so I have no particular disposition against any the Catholic church or any religious organization that faithfully worships Jesus Christ. This is strictly a question in regard to biblical references. I do not intend to create controversy or offend any Catholics. I just want to understand more about what the bible teaches.

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, there are many things I've read and watched about the Vatican since it's inception. I'm familiar with what has been written about the underground structures, vast secret vaults, sordid historical controversies, etc. Furthermore, there are some peculiarities about the Vatican that make me question just what they know and what they do. For example, the Vatican apparently owns some of the worlds most sophisticated observatories and advanced scientific labs. The Pope and the Vatican have made statements in the past regarding the existence of extraterrestrial or alien life.

Aside from all the conspiracy theories, which I really don't care to hear much about, there seems to be plenty of evidence to indicate that the Vatican has held, continues to hold, and continues to discover profound secrets and relics. Whether these things are really true or whatever, I don't know because I'm not an expert. I've never been to the Vatican. All I'm saying is that all indication points to it being a keeper of secrets possibly even more profound or significant than any government.

I don't want to pick on the Vatican either. There are apparently many churches around the world which supposedly hold authentic religious relics and secrets. There are mysteries such as the 7 churches in Ethiopia built 1000 years ago, recessed into the ground in solid rock, and with a precision and design barely possible today. There's the Rosslyn Chapel, etc., so this is not just about the Vatican even though they're evidently the most vast and powerful keeper of holy secrets.

What I want to know is what the bible says about how the church and religions should operate, and whether secrets should be kept or freely given. I'm still a novice in biblical study, but what I've come across the most in the bible seems to convey that secrets should not be kept and knowledge should be freely given... No, in fact, my impression is that the church should go to great pain to ensure that they continually minister all their knowledge to the world.

Has anyone studied this subject? If so, what is said about it? I've contemplated the question why would the church possibly need to conceal or hide things from people. The way I see it is that the only plausible reason would be to protect something against falling into the hands of evil forces. However, that just doesn't seem to make sense in the end unless there are things in the bible which says that the church has been entrusted with sacred things that are never to or not yet to be revealed to anyone but a select few or something.

You can substitute any religious organization for the word Catholic. Man in his attempt to please God fails every time.

 

[epostle1]

You can substitute any religious organization for the word Catholic. Man in his attempt to please God fails every time.

But not yours, right? Correction:"soul man" in his attempt to please God fails every time. Or
"soul man's" anti-church mentality in his attempt to please God fails every time. OR:
"soul man's" non-denominational denomination in it's attempt to please God fails every time.

At least your anti-Catholicism is subtle, I give you credit for that.

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[GodsGrace]

Good one...well said. Glad that you posted that.

Yes, but I'm sorry it was taken so badly; it wasn't meant that way.

 

[Helen]

Yes, but I'm sorry it was taken so badly; it wasn't meant that way.

But he/she has been a bit edgy from day one...ie " Call me Doctor KAM.

 

[GodsGrace]

But he/she has been a bit edgy from day one...ie " Call me Doctor KAM.

Oh. I didn't see that.
OK. I feel better now!!
Maybe it was him and not me.

 

[BreadOfLife]

In fact, your hypocrisy reminds me of why I stopped going to churches for the past 18 years. Ironically, however, you've helped me confirm a conclusion I came to long ago - that Christianity is between a man and God alone. I will never again seek wisdom from anyone who is not profoundly knowledgeable in the bible and more humble than myself. From now on, I'll buy the resources I need and figure things out on my own. This is a waste of time.

This is the most profoundly insightful statement you've made so far.

You didn't come here to have an "intellectual" or "charitable" dialog. No - YOU came here to poke a bear with a stick to see how he reacts.

Well - you got your reaction and now you've become "indignant" from the response.
Seems to me that a real "doctor" looking for answers would have approached things differently.

A little advice: If you want to have a discussion on a forum like this - grow up and at least TRY to approach things honestly and charitably . . .

 

[Truth]

Has anyone studied this subject? If so, what is said about it? I've contemplated the question why would the church possibly need to conceal or hide things from people. The way I see it is that the only plausible reason would be to protect something against falling into the hands of evil forces. However, that just doesn't seem to make sense in the end unless there are things in the bible which says that the church has been entrusted with sacred things that are never to or not yet to be revealed to anyone but a select few or something.

First I have to Say that NO, I haven't studied this Subject!!OK, But I am aware of several that have, and they are bring out INFO from Manuscripts of OLD.
In 1991 when Russia fell, Israel sent a large group of Scholars to Russia, and were able to Micro-film thousands of Hebrew manuscripts that had not seen the light of day for hundreds of years, which are available online, The Vatican has been putting on line there collection of Manuscripts, and there are books, religious manuscripts, there is a wide verity of historical Manuscripts from way back! during the German Hitlers siege, they collected every thing that had to do with the Jews,and were going to place them in this Museum they were going to call! The Museum of the Extinct Race, and it is the largest collection of Judaica know today. There are 3 different organization's that are financing the effort to get all these Historical Manuscripts categorized and on line for the world to have access to them.
The biggest problem for people that are under educated, is that they will not know how to Traverse these sites!
As I said above, I am aware of several [Scholars ] that have uncovered some real interesting Manuscripts!
Russia kept these hidden, The Vatican was overwhelmed with INFO, that they rely did not know how to organize everything, but as they get it together they are putting it on line, and this has been going on for quit some time.
Let us Trust that God will not Allow anything to be kept from His People, and in what I believe to be last days God is bring much to the surface.
To God be All Glory,AMN also read post#20

 

[Truth]

I say this to say that it doesn't matter what secrets are kept, IF there are any.
For instance, nobody knows for sure how much the Vatican State is worth. Do we really care? Will it get us closer to God? I don't think so, so I don't think about it too much.

We're all just trying to do our best

The two largest collection's of Manuscripts were The Vatican, and Russia! Russia kept their Secret until 1991. as to not rewrite a large response, read post #20 and 27 to get the Jest!

 

[epostle1]

Too bad he left. I want to know more about relics and secrets.

THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA

INTRODUCTION

As the second millennium gives way to the third, Pope John Paul II has decided to publish the text of the third part of the “secret of Fatima”.

The twentieth century was one of the most crucial in human history, with its tragic and cruel events culminating in the assassination attempt on Pope John Paul the Great. Now a veil is drawn back on a series of events which make history and interpret it in depth, in a spiritual perspective alien to present-day attitudes, often tainted with rationalism.

Throughout history there have been supernatural apparitions and signs which go to the heart of human events and which, to the surprise of believers and non-believers alike, play their part in the unfolding of history. These manifestations can never contradict the content of faith, and must therefore have their focus in the core of Christ's proclamation: the Father's love which leads men and women to conversion and bestows the grace required to abandon oneself to him with filial devotion. This too is the message of Fatima which, with its urgent call to conversion and penance, draws us to the heart of the Gospel.

Fatima is undoubtedly the most prophetic of modern apparitions. The first and second parts of the “secret”—which are here published in sequence so as to complete the documentation—refer especially to the frightening vision of hell, devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, the Second World War, and finally the prediction of the immense damage that Russia would do to humanity by abandoning the Christian faith and embracing Communist totalitarianism.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...on_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

Scroll down from the link ^ to see the original handwritten letter in Portugese.
Translation to English is provided.
shhh...don't tell anybody, it's a secret

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[GodsGrace]

The two largest collection's of Manuscripts were The Vatican, and Russia! Russia kept their Secret until 1991. as to not rewrite a large response, read post #20 and 27 to get the Jest!

My point to the O.P., who left, was that these secrets have nothing to do with our spirituality. IOW, they're not going to say that Jesus didn't die or that He didn't resurrect.

They have to do with wars, disputes between churches, IOW, church matters.
I don't know too many that are actually interested in all this.
Are you?

 

[Truth]

My point to the O.P., who left, was that these secrets have nothing to do with our spirituality. IOW, they're not going to say that Jesus didn't die or that He didn't resurrect.

They have to do with wars, disputes between churches, IOW, church matters.
I don't know too many that are actually interested in all this.
Are you?

Yes I am!
I do Agree! Because of access they are finding the Gospels in the Hebrew writing, I know that they do not change our Salvation, but it is refreshing to know that these men did write the Gospels in Hebrew as the Church fathers said! and there are some subtle differences!

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes I am!
I do Agree! Because of access they are finding the Gospels in the Hebrew writing, I know that they do not change our Salvation, but it is refreshing to know that these men did write the Gospels in Hebrew as the Church fathers said! and there are some subtle differences!

I agree. It's wonderful that when scrolls are found, they confirm what we know.
But I thought the gospels were written originally in Greek.
Is this not correct??
I like reading about the ECF, but didn't know they stated that the gospels were written in Hebrew!

Please respond. Be back later.

 

[epostle1]

There was nothing special about those 3 seers. They were just kids; poor, uneducated, playful and smelled like sheep. They were not overly religious. 70,000 people, believers, unbelievers, atheists, cops and reporters witnessed the miracle of the spinning sun...101 years ago. Contrary to overwhelming evidence, people want to call it a hoax. To those who have faith, no evidence is necessary. To those who have no faith, no amount of evidence will suffice.

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[Truth]

I agree. It's wonderful that when scrolls are found, they confirm what we know.
But I thought the gospels were written originally in Greek.
Is this not correct??
I like reading about the ECF, but didn't know they stated that the gospels were written in Hebrew!

Please respond. Be back later.

Let us be logical! concerning the Gospels, why would some one like Matthew write his Gospel in Greek, Matthew was a Levite, All the Apostles were Hebrew. According to one of the early Church fathers, Papious said the Matthew did write his Gospel in Hebrew, and all others did their best to translate it.
There are about 23 known Manuscripts of the Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew, I just yesterday I typed in Shem Tovs hebrew Mathew, and found it on line, another is the Leningrad Matthew, the is one in a British Library, and according to this Jew I follow, He found one in the Library in Jerusalem, which was one of the thousands of micro-filmed manuscripts, found in Russia. This non-believing Jew was asked by a believing Jew to search for some of the NT scriptures that seem to contradict each other. being this non-believing Jew is a linguistic Scholar, a biblical Scholar, fluent in Hebrew, Aramaic, Palio Hebrew, Arabic, and Greek He took up this challenge for linguistic's sake. considering that any Jew would be interested in NT studies. He has found partial manuscripts of Mark, Luke, and John from on line Archives from the Vatican. He has also found over 1000 Manuscripts with the NAME of God with all the vowel pointing, and He has found in these partial Gospels the very same NAME of God with the very same Vowel pointing's. He once said that He had an Agenda, and His Agenda was to Search Out Truth, He has presented His finding's to Hebrew Scholars in Israel, and they do not want to address them, because they are NT, Christian stuff! This Man was studying to be a Rabbi, his dad was a Rabbi, his grand dad was a Rabbi, and so on. But He saw that what was being taught was not the word Of God, now He is only interested in Scripture, and what God said and asked, not what Rabbi so an so said! He is not Alone!
Remember in my previous post! God is behind these things to come to the surface ! We will be equipped with the fullness of the word, without deception!

 

[GodsGrace]

Let us be logical! concerning the Gospels, why would some one like Matthew write his Gospel in Greek, Matthew was a Levite, All the Apostles were Hebrew. According to one of the early Church fathers, Papious said the Matthew did write his Gospel in Hebrew, and all others did their best to translate it.
There are about 23 known Manuscripts of the Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew, I just yesterday I typed in Shem Tovs hebrew Mathew, and found it on line, another is the Leningrad Matthew, the is one in a British Library, and according to this Jew I follow, He found one in the Library in Jerusalem, which was one of the thousands of micro-filmed manuscripts, found in Russia. This non-believing Jew was asked by a believing Jew to search for some of the NT scriptures that seem to contradict each other. being this non-believing Jew is a linguistic Scholar, a biblical Scholar, fluent in Hebrew, Aramaic, Palio Hebrew, Arabic, and Greek He took up this challenge for linguistic's sake. considering that any Jew would be interested in NT studies. He has found partial manuscripts of Mark, Luke, and John from on line Archives from the Vatican. He has also found over 1000 Manuscripts with the NAME of God with all the vowel pointing, and He has found in these partial Gospels the very same NAME of God with the very same Vowel pointing's. He once said that He had an Agenda, and His Agenda was to Search Out Truth, He has presented His finding's to Hebrew Scholars in Israel, and they do not want to address them, because they are NT, Christian stuff! This Man was studying to be a Rabbi, his dad was a Rabbi, his grand dad was a Rabbi, and so on. But He saw that what was being taught was not the word Of God, now He is only interested in Scripture, and what God said and asked, not what Rabbi so an so said! He is not Alone!
Remember in my previous post! God is behind these things to come to the surface ! We will be equipped with the fullness of the word, without deception!

I always knew that the gospels were written in Greek because that was the language everyone in that area knew - like English would be today world-wide...it's the language everyone knows.

There's so much we don't really know if we want to admit it. Some say Mathew didn't write Mathew and that it was written after all the Apostles had died and gave it that name because it was written by a student of his. Ditto for Hebrews. Some say Paul didn't write Hebrews.

I have a couple of extra-biblical books, like the writings of Nag Hamadi - but they're so off and out there that they hardly make any sense. It's no wonder the books in the N.T. had to be carefully chosen.

Now that I read your post, I feel like I'd love to know what you're going to find out. I think that in the end, we're going to find out that our bibles are pretty accurate.

I also know someone who knows Koine Greek and Hebrew and Arabic (not Aramaic). He reads the N.T. in Greek - I wish I could do that. I know how much could be lost when translating from one language to the other, but I firmly believe that the ideas are all there and I've never understood the passion some have for referring to Greek lexicons - I value them, but I think they're mostly for theologians.

Thanks for a great reply!

 

[Ac28]

The mainstream denominational church system (I include the Catholic Church, although they're not rofficially part of the denominational system) probably control about 90% of what's being taught to Christians today. They all do a wonderful job in keeping the church "dumbed down", since they all, including the Catholic Church, are essentially Jewish synagogues teaching non-applicable Jewish doctrine to unsuspecting Gentiles. NONE of them obey 2Tim 2:15, and rightly divide God's Word, so none are approved unto God, according to that verse. Even the Baptists, who truthfully consider themselves the closest to the truth of all the mainstream denominations, but who don't rightly divide (correctly cut) God's Word, it's impossible for them to understand more than about 50% of what the New Testament is all about. After getting saved, 2Tim 2:15 is the absolute key to all knowledge in the NT. The ONLY good thing any of these churches have to offer, besides salvation, is fellowship.

If one is truly interested in truth, no mainstream denominational or Catholic church will ever fit the bill. If you want truth, find a teacher that rightly divides between Paul's 7 epistles written after Acts and anything and everything in the other 59 books, except for Christ's works and our subsequent salvation. As far as what is written directly to you, as a Gentile in this 2000 period of pure grace, you will only find it in Paul's 7 Post Acts books - Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon. This is the biggest secret that is being kept from you. It's not because the churches are trying to keep these things as secrets. It's because they are also so dumbed down and so blinded by what they have taken from Israel, God has not given them the eyes to see the much, much, much better things available to them in Ephesians, Colossians, etc.

For example:
The Calling during Acts was the New Jerusalem, which is not Heaven. It comes down out of Heaven and attaches to the New Earth.
The Calling after Acts is the very highest Heaven, where Christ now sits at the right hand of God - Compare Eph 1:20 (Christ) with 2:6 (Us)

These are the type of marvelous secrets being kept from you, through the ignorance of your teachers.

 

[Truth]

There are no vast underground structures, unless you mean the catacombs where they hid from Roman persecution and buried the martyrs? Anti-Catholics don't like the solid physical evidence what the catacombs prove: that the early Christians of the 1st three centuries were Catholic. Oh pleeeze!
http://www.pas.va/content/accademia/en.html No, they haven't. That's media hype and its false. An astrophysicist who is a member of the Academy speculated on the POSSIBILITY of alien life, given the billions X billions of galaxies. If aliens showed up at your church wanting to know more about Jesus, you would probably invite them in. But if the Pope asks a rhetorical question, the Christian Taliban accuses him of being a UFO nut. Please, get the text of the controversial homily and avoid cheap tabloids.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/deacon...martians-arrived-tomorrow-and-wanted-baptism/
This is paranoid fundamentalist nonsense. Relics are always in display and often rotate to various churches. The Church has no profound secrets, and if they are any, how do you know they exist?
The Ethiopian Orthodox church is not Catholic. The Rosslyn Chapel is a family owned church and tourist attraction funded by the Scottish government.
Again, there are no secrets. What has been known as the Secret Archives is called "secret" because before, only trained archivists could access centuries old documents. Now they are working to digitize millions of documents.
Who is feeding you this crap?


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The Not-so-Secret Archives accessible to scholars and historians. This is how it was discovered that most of what is popularly known about the Inquisition is fiction. Catholic and non-Catholic scholars have poured over the original court proceedings. That's why Protestant Bible college professors no longer teach the old propaganda and exaggerated horror stories.

Man O Man, what a Library, I would that I was Intelligent enough to swim in that Pool, Yes It is there for the picking, NOT MANY People realize how available it is, or believe it!
I wouldn't have known except for a Jewish Scholar that has for years been accessing Info from the Vatican.

 

[epostle1]

The mainstream denominational church system (I include the Catholic Church, although they're not rofficially part of the denominational system) probably control about 90% of what's being taught to Christians today. They all do a wonderful job in keeping the church "dumbed down", since they all, including the Catholic Church, are essentially Jewish synagogues teaching non-applicable Jewish doctrine to unsuspecting Gentiles.

The Catholic Church (CC) cannot "control" or impose anything. She can only PROPOSE truths to those who are DISPOSED to receive it. Declaration on Religious Freedom:
DIGNITATIS HUMANAE

NONE of them obey 2Tim 2:15, and rightly divide God's Word, so none are approved unto God, according to that verse.

No, according to your private interpretation of that verse. NOWHERE does "word of God" mean the written word alone. It's found in about 200 places in the Bible which means "rightly divide the written word alone" is unbiblical.

Even the Baptists, who truthfully consider themselves the closest to the truth of all the mainstream denominations, but who don't rightly divide (correctly cut) God's Word, it's impossible for them to understand more than about 50% of what the New Testament is all about. After getting saved, 2Tim 2:15 is the absolute key to all knowledge in the NT. The ONLY good thing any of these churches have to offer, besides salvation, is fellowship.

Wow! It's a good thing we have an infallible church critiquer around to consult.

If one is truly interested in truth, no mainstream denominational or Catholic church will ever fit the bill. If you want truth, find a teacher that rightly divides between Paul's 7 epistles written after Acts and anything and everything in the other 59 books, except for Christ's works and our subsequent salvation. As far as what is written directly to you, as a Gentile in this 2000 period of pure grace, you will only find it in Paul's 7 Post Acts books - Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon. This is the biggest secret that is being kept from you. It's not because the churches are trying to keep these things as secrets. It's because they are also so dumbed down and so blinded by what they have taken from Israel, God has not given them the eyes to see the much, much, much better things available to them in Ephesians, Colossians, etc.

I challenge you to find a 66 book canon of Scripture that was used anytime before the 14th century. Use any Bible, anywhere in the world.

2 Timothy 3:
[14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, (Tradition)
knowing from whom you learned it (Magisterium)
[15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. (Scriptures)
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Note verse 14-15. It admonishes Timothy to do three things:
1) Remember what you have learned and firmly believed (Tradition)
2) Know from whom you learned it (Magisterium)
3) Know you have the Scriptures

The Bible on St. Paul's list comes in third, not first. He actually gives here the traditional Catholic teaching on the three sources of sound teaching.
In verse 15 he goes into an excursus on the Bible. This brief excursus emphasizes the value of the Bible and recommends a fourfold method of exegesis. This verse was used in the pre-Reformation Church as a proof text for the Quadriga which was the standard Catholic approach to the Bible. The Quadriga method used the following four categories:

Literal/Literary (teaching) - the text as it is written
Analogical (reproof) - matters of faith
Anagogical (correction) - matters of hope/prophecy
Moral (training in righteousness) - matters of charity

The analogical, anagogical and moral senses of the Bible were known collectively as the spiritual senses, still taught today.
The 'reformers' rejected the BIBLICAL fourfold method of exegesis in favor of a more literal approach, and ignored 2 Tim 3:16!!!

2 Tim. 3:17 - Paul's reference to the "man of God" who may be complete refers to a clergyman, not a layman. It is an instruction to a bishop of the Church. So, although you use it to prove your case, the passage is not even relevant to most of the faithful.

(2 Tim. 3:16–17).

This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency, which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church. Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14). And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:

(Ephesians. 4:11–15).

If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.

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[epostle1]

Ac28 said:
NONE of them obey, and rightly divide God's Word, so none are approved unto God, according to that verse.

2 Timothy 2:14 Remind them of this, and warn them before God that they are to avoid wrangling over words, which does no good but only ruins those who are listening. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the word of truth.

1) Who is doing the reminding in verse 14? Each individual believer or one who has authority?
2) as one approved by him, a worker
What does Paul mean by "approved"?
1 Thess. 1:1, 2:4
3) rightly dividing the word of truth. If "word of truth" meant scripture alone, how can Paul be talking about a Bible that would not exist for 350 years? Or is the Old Testament the sole rule of faith?

By What Authority?
A Challenge to Protestant Pastors

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[soul man]

But not yours, right? Correction:"soul man" in his attempt to please God fails every time. Or
"soul man's" anti-church mentality in his attempt to please God fails every time. OR:
"soul man's" non-denominational denomination in it's attempt to please God fails every time.

At least your anti-Catholicism is subtle, I give you credit for that.

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You left out "anti-troll"