Silence Of Women

[JarBreaker]

What about her? It usually takes a strong person to make needed changes in a culture - did she go too far? I don't know -

that was a few years earlier than I had thought at first (was thinking mid-70s) ... so I read up a bit

Did she go too far ? --- apparently she didnt think so, because IIRC she started funding some prochoice group for teens in the mid 90s

Of course it does! What does submit mean? It means serve......we are all called to serve like Christ serves us. Submit = serve = love. Paul is telling men to love their wifes and wives to love their husbands - same thing, different wording.

WRONG - submission in marriage is the same as submission to HIM --- just as He rules over you, then as you are given headship over the one He made for you she must submit to you, and trust that the man YHWH made for her stays true to his first love and RULES OVER HER in righteousness and obedience to his Creator

Of course, if He was at the basis of every marriage, there would be a lot of out of work divorce laywers, no ?

 

[aspen]

[font="tahoma][color="#000080"]Of course it does! What does submit mean? It means serve......we are all called to serve like Christ serves us. Submit = serve = love. Paul is telling men to love their wifes and wives to love their husbands - same thing, different wording.
[/color]
WRONG - submission in marriage is the same as submission to HIM --- just as He rules over you, then as you are given headship over the one He made for you she must submit to you, and trust that the man YHWH made for her stays true to his first love and RULES OVER HER in righteousness and obedience to his Creator[/font]
[font="tahoma] [/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#000080"]Who did He submit to when He was on Earth? His Father. How did He do it? Through obedience and service. What are obedience and service? Love. Women are called to love their husbands as servants and men are called to do the same. No matter how you word it, the fact is we are called to love each other. Worrying about who the head is in a one unit relationship is a bit more unreasonable than Peter asking Christ who among them was the greatest.[/color][/font]
[font="tahoma]
Of course, if He was at the basis of every marriage, there would be a lot of out of work divorce laywers, no ?
[/font][/color]
[color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma][/font][/color][font="tahoma][color="#000080"]I suppose, but would the partners be happy? My wife make twice the money I make and is great at motivating me to get out of my prayer and books on theology and actually get to church and volunteer - exercise my sanctification. Without her I am afraid I would remain in a theological cloud all day. I have to taker her encouragement and loving push (submit) in order to live a balanced Christian life. Is this wrong? Heck no, we are partners in this life - God gave me a helpmate for my own good and hers.[/font]
[font="tahoma] [/font]
[font="tahoma][color="#000080"]I believe in marriage and I believe everyone have to work out their relationships - it is personal. If the whole literal headship model works - great. But based on my experiences working with couples - the headship model often includes controlling behavior and dismissal of feels and ideas.[/color][/font]

 

[JarBreaker]

[font="tahoma][color="#000080"]I believe in marriage and I believe everyone have to work out their relationships - it is personal. If the whole literal headship model works - great. But based on my experiences working with couples - the headship model often includes controlling behavior and dismissal of feels and ideas.[/color][/font]

Totally agree here, but there is somewhat difference of "degrees of understanding"

Give and take is more how I would term it --- but being equally yoked means you both strive in furthering your walk to completeness before Him.

Now, if wife or husband admonishes more study or prayer, then the other is able to teach scriptural principles from a more practical everyday model then, there you have it.

I meant in no way to single anyone out, He knows where each of us are --- whether we hide or maybe, let our conscience be the guide in some cases, rather than His word and leading of the spirit. Or whether we stand naked before Him.

 

[aspen]

Totally agree here, but there is somewhat difference of "degrees of understanding"

Give and take is more how I would term it --- but being equally yoked means you both strive in furthering your walk to completeness before Him.

Now, if wife or husband admonishes more study or prayer, then the other is able to teach scriptural principles from a more practical everyday model then, there you have it.

I meant in no way to single anyone out, He knows where each of us are --- whether we hide or maybe, let our conscience be the guide in some cases, rather than His word and leading of the spirit. Or whether we stand naked before Him.

It sounds like you are willing to look at the individualities involved in marriage using the headship framework - I am glad to see it.

 

[Anastacia]

Maybe Hammerstone could make a section for just the women on the site to discuss and debate with each other. Though there doesn't seem to be very many women here.

 

[aspen]

Maybe Hammerstone could make a section for just the women on the site to discuss and debate with each other. Though there doesn't seem to be very many women here.

Maybe more would join if he did

 

[Anastacia]

Maybe more would join if he did

Yeah really. Maybe that is why many women don't come to these sites because they believe they wouldn't be doing right to discuss scripture with men. Maybe HammerStone will consider a woman's section. I'm thinking of not discussing the Bible with men anymore. Before I stop though, I'd like to ask you a question...lol...if you think you should answer another man's wife...... If there was a law that men could not teach women, that only a woman could teach another woman. Would you correct the woman if you heard that she believed in a false doctrine? Wouldn't that be strange not to be able to correct her, even if she was your wife? That's the type of spot it seems women are in. They can't debate with other men, nor try to show their husbands, from the scriptures, that they might be going into a false belief.

 

[aspen]

Yeah really. Maybe that is why many women don't come to these sites because they believe they wouldn't be doing right to discuss scripture with men. Maybe HammerStone will consider a woman's section. I'm thinking of not discussing the Bible with men anymore. Before I stop though, I'd like to ask you a question...lol...if you think you should answer another man's wife...... If there was a law that men could not teach women, that only a woman could teach another woman. Would you correct the woman if you heard that she believed in a false doctrine? Wouldn't that be strange not to be able to correct her, even if she was your wife? That's the type of spot it seems women are in. They can't debate with other men, nor try to show their husbands, from the scriptures, that they might be going into a false belief.

That is a tough place to be - especially when you are intelligent and well versed in the scriptures. I can imagine how frustrating it could be to watch others making obvious mistakes and not being able to correct them.

I know you've asked me several great questions - they have made me think a great deal. In fact, I am still considering three of them before I will answer them.

I guess, I struggle with this whole idea of women being restricted in this manner - I tend to look to the women in the Bible who spoke up, despite the restrictions.......with out the two women's report from the tomb, the men would not have known (at least they wouldn't have known as quickly) that Christ had risen. I do not think God choose women on accident to carry this important message.

In any case, praying about it is the best route.

 

[Anastacia]

That is a tough place to be - especially when you are intelligent and well versed in the scriptures. I can imagine how frustrating it could be to watch others making obvious mistakes and not being able to correct them.

I know you've asked me several great questions - they have made me think a great deal. In fact, I am still considering three of them before I will answer them.

I guess, I struggle with this whole idea of women being restricted in this manner - I tend to look to the women in the Bible who spoke up, despite the restrictions.......with out the two women's report from the tomb, the men would not have known (at least they wouldn't have known as quickly) that Christ had risen. I do not think God choose women on accident to carry this important message.

In any case, praying about it is the best route.

It is very frustrating. I love talking about God's Word. I want to talk about God's Word to anyone and everyone that also wants to. I really did think that women not teaching men was a cultural thing, that if a man allowed a woman to discuss with them...then it would be okay. And if another man besides the woman's husband taught her, then it was okay since the husband of the woman didn't mind. Also with women having long hair....I thought it was more of a cultural thing too. I do have long hair and it's easy for me to grow, but we can see that the African women's hair doesn't grow long, and they manage their hair better with braids, yet the scriptures say for women to have long hair and not to have braided hair. So you can probably see how I really thought it was more of a cultural thing.
You bring up other women in the Bible speaking up. Look at Deborah in the Bible, she was a prophetess and a Judge of Israel.

I will pray more about it. And I want to thank you for building me up when you see how down I am. You gave me some wonderful compliments here. Thanks again.

 

[aspen]

It is very frustrating. I love talking about God's Word. I want to talk about God's Word to anyone and everyone that also wants to. I really did think that women not teaching men was a cultural thing, that if a man allowed a woman to discuss with them...then it would be okay. And if another man besides the woman's husband taught her, then it was okay since the husband of the woman didn't mind. Also with women having long hair....I thought it was more of a cultural thing too. I do have long hair and it's easy for me to grow, but we can see that the African women's hair doesn't grow long, and they manage their hair better with braids, yet the scriptures say for women to have long hair and not to have braided hair. So you can probably see how I really thought it was more of a cultural thing.
You bring up other women in the Bible speaking up. Look at Deborah in the Bible, she was a prophetess and a Judge of Israel.

I will pray more about it. And I want to thank you for building me up when you see how down I am. You gave me some wonderful compliments here. Thanks again.

Deborah is a great example. I appreciate your questions, even if I do not answer right away so keep them coming and I am glad you are turning to prayer.

 

[bro.tan]

Although the Bible says

1Co 14:34

(34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

We see this clearly and most denominations do not apply to this. What basis do they use to circumvent this teaching?

Thats a good point, also true.

 

[aspen]

Thats a good point, also true.

The teaching is appropriate for uneducated people who were treated like property. A contemporary translation might be, 'everyone, please silence your cell phones during the service, thank you'.

If you were unable to control your property you were not considered to be in control of yourself or possessions. The same is true about this verse - it is not weird to keep an 8 year old from teaching an adult education class today. In the case of women - times have changed.

 

[TexUs]

They can't debate with other men, nor try to show their husbands, from the scriptures, that they might be going into a false belief.

Women are submissive to husbands, I think that's what the OT is meaning and that's the order God designed. This does not mean they are least, they are equals.
A football team comes to mind. All are equals, but when it comes to the decisions, the QB makes the calls.

I think women are to be submissive UNTIL her husband is acting not according to Scripture. I think she's got every right to speak against it, they are not excluded from the rest of Paul's writings. However when it comes down to two personal opinions perhaps not rooted in solid scripture (IE, it's silent on the issue), I think that's when the man takes precedence and the woman needs to submit and follow.
Because of this as well, is when the commands for them not to be elders or anyone in spiritual authority in the church.

The hair passage is also describing authority. Women identify themselves with long hair. It's submission to the headship because her hair is longer than her husbands, it distinguishes them.
This is a sticky one. Culturally, this was applicable to their culture. In America, we don't identify hair length as any time of authority, so it does not have the same meaning as what it did in Paul's day, and thus we've stopped doing it.
Culture in Biblical context is a sticky situation indeed. It's just like coveting your neighbor's donkey... Do we limit that to their culture of the day? Or do we take the idea and apply it to our culture? I think the latter is what we do.

 

[deprofundis]

As I've said in other threads, taking into account the context of verses, especially for whom they were being written, is always important. Corinthians is a great example of this; Paul is advising the people of Corinth, based on their lifestyles, how best to alter those lifestyles to follow the scripture. We are all equals in Christ, so nobody is more important in a household or otherwise. Yet, in certain cultures, this may not lend itself towards ideally following the scripture. For example, Paul tells the men of Corinth that it is "better not to touch a woman," but does not tell women the same of men. This doesn't mean that adultery and fornication are not sins for women, but it means that they were as common a social vice in Corinth among women as they were among men.

 

[Martin W.]

I didn't go back and check recently it but I think if you read carefully it was Paul who had his own protocols regarding women in church services.

I do not think it was a mandate for everybody to follow. Like I said , I recall this from memory so check it out yourself.

I find Jesus highly regarded the women around him. I like his example.

I have read that women are to be submissive to husbands (Paul's opinion again) but a key verse at the same place it says that the husband is to be submissive to Christ. If the husband gets it right , the wife would gladly support him. Often men get it wrong , they do not submit to Christ , but they still want the wife to submit to them regardless. In that case the man is wrong.

Sometimes , when the man gets it wrong , I think it is entirely appropriate that the good Christian woman should forget she is a gentleman , hoist the black flag , draw the sharp sword , and take action

 

[Selene]

I didn't go back and check recently it but I think if you read carefully it was Paul who had his own protocols regarding women in church services.

I do not think it was a mandate for everybody to follow. Like I said , I recall this from memory so check it out yourself.

I find Jesus highly regarded the women around him. I like his example.

I have read that women are to be submissive to husbands (Paul's opinion again) but a key verse at the same place it says that the husband is to be submissive to Christ. If the husband gets it right , the wife would gladly support him. Often men get it wrong , they do not submit to Christ , but they still want the wife to submit to them regardless. In that case the man is wrong.

Sometimes , when the man gets it wrong , I think it is entirely appropriate that the good Christian woman should forget she is a gentleman , hoist the black flag , draw the sharp sword , and take action

Hello Martin,

The Bible also said that the husband must love his wife as Christ loved the Church and delivered Himself up for it (Ephesians 5:25). Christ loved the Church that He gave up His life for her. In the same way, husbands are called to do the same. That is why in so many hollywood movies, the man is always seen giving up his life for the woman he loves....like in the hit movie Titanic. Jack gave up his life for Rose when he got her on the debris of the ship.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[Foreigner]

"like in the hit movie Titanic. Jack gave up his life for Rose when he got her on the debris of the ship." - Selene


-- You mean Rose, the woman Jack knew for three days who had sex with him in the storage compartment while her fiance' looked for her?

That Jack and Rose?

 

[deprofundis]

So you're saying that no-one who is morally imperfect can ever be used as an exemplar of any single idea?

 

[Foreigner]

If you wish to make a blanket judgement on a specific topic or discussion based on one specific event, as you are often found to do, then yes.

 

[deprofundis]

I'm afraid I don't follow what you mean.