Silly question, but a thought provoking one:

[Grailhunter]

I do believe that ATs exist. The difficulty occurs when two believers insist on ATs which contradict each other. God alone knows for certain in every case who is right and who is wrong.

People believe they are right and very often call their beliefs ATs. All of us, I believe, still do live by faith.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1

A believer who insists that his AT is right and someone else's is wrong could be wrong in God's eyes because of his attitude [spirit] without regard as to the correctness of his doctrine.

What I see is that every believer in God and Jesus has both ATs and beliefs, but he is unable to draw and accurate line between the two groups.

I say this with a certain amount of humor....some truth. LOL A brain teaser!
Is this a slippery sloop? LOL True in fact, but bad in practice.
Again the topic of Beliefs....Truths....Facts Which I have explained.
Absolute truths and Ultimate truths fall into the category of facts. Facts can be elusive and actually require total awareness to know them. Which mean only God knows. If we know Absolute facts, it is probably by accident. LOL

But, on the other hand we have to deal with our reality and the understanding of Beliefs, Truths, and Facts. If not, you cannot make an informed decision on anything. The mental methodology for the reasoning of Beliefs, Truths, and Facts is to understand confidence levels.

Strangely enough brain surgery, Astro Physics, and biblical studies have some of the same difficulties. Working with the known facts, to understand truths, to form beliefs and guide our actions. Quantum Mechanics, they still do not know what all goes on inside a nuclear reactor, but they can make it work. We do not know all the facts of the Bible but we can form a true religion, mostly based on the Bible.

Christianity is a religion of faith and morals which has a vague understanding of the spiritual. LOL
We have to work with the facts of the Bible and believe them with confidence, or you do not know where to draw the line between what is true and what is false. This applies to a good part of reality.

When do you draw the line? The Crusaders drew the line in the middle east and if you follow history, you know that that war never ended. The Moslems were wanting to push north and if they had been successful life as we know it would be different. I drew the line in Iraq, Iran, Kuwait and Afghanistan. My job was to teach the special forces on how the use the latest technology to send coordinates and illuminate targets for B1 and B2 bombers. A lot of people died. If you try to negotiate with the Moslems they think you are a fool. If you show weakness or lack of resolve you inspire them to war. Since we pulled out of Afghanistan, watch what the Moslems do.

Drawing the line in theological discussions and debates. The parable of the Talents. Those that have the knowledge and intelligence to understand the scriptures should stand up for the scriptures. Condemn the sin not the sinner or one in error. Believe it or not, the Bible will tell you to do that in words and the actions seen in the Bible.

Is Christ the Son of God? A God. Is He or was He both God and Man. Is salvation through Him? Does Hell exist? Has God forbid free-will and we are all robots? There are people that want to disregard Acts 2:38 and communion! The concept of being good and doing good. For Heaven's sakes, draw the line. In theological discussions and debates it is not a war, but it is correct to completely and totally reject their beliefs.

1st Timothy 1:3-7, 1st Timothy 1:19-20, 1st Timothy 4:1-2, 1st Timothy 6:3-5, etc

 

[Wrangler]

I've witnessed a type of communication breakdown in these threads created from obsession with unitarianism ... Scripture is being extraordinarily twisted and abused.

Untwisting, properly using Scripture is what I’ve seen, guided by correctly grasping it for the unitarian Word of God it is.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Complete Jewish Bible

(A:vi, S: v) 4 “Sh’ma, Yisra’el! Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad[Hear, Isra’el! Adonai our God, Adonai is one];

 

[amadeus]

I say this with a certain amount of humor....some truth. LOL A brain teaser!
Is this a slippery sloop? LOL True in fact, but bad in practice.
Again the topic of Beliefs....Truths....Facts Which I have explained.
Absolute truths and Ultimate truths fall into the category of facts. Facts can be elusive and actually require total awareness to know them. Which mean only God knows. If we know Absolute facts, it is probably by accident. LOL

But, on the other hand we have to deal with our reality and the understanding of Beliefs, Truths, and Facts. If not, you cannot make an informed decision on anything. The mental methodology for the reasoning of Beliefs, Truths, and Facts is to understand confidence levels.

Strangely enough brain surgery, Astro Physics, and biblical studies have some of the same difficulties. Working with the known facts, to understand truths, to form beliefs and guide our actions. Quantum Mechanics, they still do not know what all goes on inside a nuclear reactor, but they can make it work. We do not know all the facts of the Bible but we can form a true religion, mostly based on the Bible.

Christianity is a religion of faith and morals which has a vague understanding of the spiritual. LOL
We have to work with the facts of the Bible and believe them with confidence, or you do not know where to draw the line between what is true and what is false. This applies to a good part of reality.

When do you draw the line? The Crusaders drew the line in the middle east and if you follow history, you know that that war never ended. The Moslems were wanting to push north and if they had been successful life as we know it would be different. I drew the line in Iraq, Iran, Kuwait and Afghanistan. My job was to teach the special forces on how the use the latest technology to send coordinates and illuminate targets for B1 and B2 bombers. A lot of people died. If you try to negotiate with the Moslems they think you are a fool. If you show weakness or lack of resolve you inspire them to war. Since we pulled out of Afghanistan, watch what the Moslems do.

Drawing the line in theological discussions and debates. The parable of the Talents. Those that have the knowledge and intelligence to understand the scriptures should stand up for the scriptures. Condemn the sin not the sinner or one in error. Believe it or not, the Bible will tell you to do that in words and the actions seen in the Bible.

Is Christ the Son of God? A God. Is He or was He both God and Man. Is salvation through Him? Does Hell exist? Has God forbid free-will and we are all robots? There are people that want to disregard Acts 2:38 and communion! The concept of being good and doing good. For Heaven's sakes, draw the line. In theological discussions and debates it is not a war, but it is correct to completely and totally reject their beliefs.

1st Timothy 1:3-7, 1st Timothy 1:19-20, 1st Timothy 4:1-2, 1st Timothy 6:3-5, etc

A person may tell us what he believes, but that does not mean that he or anyone else among men can separate honestly believed error from absolute truth in the totality of his beliefs.

God may really have revealed the truth of a matter to a person, but what other person must believe that as well if it does not match his own beliefs.

The difference between what a person only believes to be true and what really is true is where room to grow may be found. Only God gives any real increase. Under what conditions does He do that? I speak not a growth as men might see growth but as God sees it. We should not presume they always the same.

 

[Grailhunter]

A person may tell us what he believes, but that does not mean that he or anyone else among men can separate honestly believed error from absolute truth in the totality of his beliefs.

God may really have revealed the truth of a matter to a person, but what other person must believe that as well if it does not match his own beliefs.

The difference between what a person only believes to be true and what really is true is where room to grow may be found. Only God gives any real increase. Under what conditions does He do that? I speak not a growth as men might see growth but as God sees it. We should not presume they always the same.

Ok, here we go. again Beliefs, Truths, Facts.

I run into this so often. Everything is a grey area.....all scriptures are a matter of interpretation.....there are no solid truths in the scriptures! It is all a matter of interpretation, opinion, and personal beliefs!

This is truly a reflection of social attitudes and values.....An attempt to destroy not only Christianity but also society as a whole. A man walks up to a squad car and shoot the two officers inside.....Well he was just upset. The law is open to interpretation at all levels. Obama justified the Ferguson burnings by saying they were just upset. Taking down the criminal George Floyd justified demonizing the police and the BLM riots that took cities captive, looting, burning, destroying, assaulting, and murdering.....they were just upset! Cuz ya know the law can be interpreted different ways. And now it works its way into biblical understanding. You can sin all you want and still go to Heaven because Christ promised you!

The truth of the matter, most of the scriptures are clear and concise and not open to interpretation. A lot of the topics are defined by word description and actions within the storyline. Most of misinterpretations and false beliefs are from ignorant people, or people that want to impose their beliefs on the scriptures or have an evil agenda. Do you think Yeshua is a God of confusion? Do you believe that He and the Apostles were out to produce 30,000 denominations. This is the kind of thinking that fractured Christ's church. It looks more like guessing than intellectual understanding. The idea that scriptures are open to interpretation is a mockery of the scriptures and God with the real intent to confuse and divide Christianity.

What do you think Paul would say, if someone came up to Him and said, Ya know I think what you are saying is open to interpretation?

 

[Enoch111]

but it is correct to completely and totally reject their beliefs.

Including the attacks against the Trinity and the deity of Christ which we see quite frequently.

 

[Grailhunter]

Including the attacks against the Trinity and the deity of Christ which we see quite frequently.

Ya they come in different forms.

 

[Robert Gwin]

WOE NOW friend - i never "recanted"
and my question to you remains -
Where in scripture can you find the LORD Jesus as a "spirit" before HE came to earth?

But i did get a good laugh from you this morning..........ty

I rest my case sir

 

[Robert Gwin]

What you suggest may have happened, but I would go slow on stating it so definitely unless you are an expert also in the original languages as well as sincere follower of God who knows without any doubt that He is leading you in this.

Having worked as a student in languages I well understand the difficulty at times in rendering the best translation to convey the meaning of the original writer. Of course, I am not a student of the original Bible languages, so in every case I need to trust the translators and God to give me His meaning for me. Most people do!

No one, no matter how hard he tries is able to cause another sincerely invested and seeking person to lose out with God. God is watching out for and leading anyone who really is seeking Him and His kingdom first. God is looking at our hearts... He is looking to see what we are doing or are trying to do with whatever it is that we have. He knows exactly what we have... better even than we do.

I have about a quarter of a brain, with only a minute portion of that working Amad, but even I can see the alteration of Ps 110:1, that is why I use that to show a deliberate manipulation of Scripture. Are you able to see the reason I say that sir?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Hello @Robert Gwin,

If you read my post, you will see that there is in fact no inconsistency, for the presence of the Gr. article, translated, 'the', substantiates the fact that John 1:1 is referring to 'The God' and not 'a god'. That is a grammatical fact.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Jehovah is God maam, in fact the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. That is fact or fiction simple as that.

 

[Robert Gwin]

)
'And it shall come to pass in the last days,
that the mountain of the LORD'S house
shall be established in the top of the mountains,
and shall be exalted above the hills;
and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say,
Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
and He will teach us of His ways,
and we will walk in His paths:
for out of Zion shall go forth the law,
and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.'
(Isa 2:2-3)

Hello @Robert Gwin,

You refer to those being gathered in the last days, as spoken of by Isaiah in the verse you referenced and I quoted (above): but as yet the Lord's House has not been established in the top of the mountains, in Zion, has it? So that gathering is on a yet future day.

* Isaiah 43:10 that you refer to: is referring to the redeemed nation of Israel, ( 'My Servant' ) who, as a nation, will, as one man, indeed be God's witnesses in that day:-

'Ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD,
and My servant Whom I have chosen:
that ye may know and believe Me,
and understand that I am He:
before Me there was no God formed,
neither shall there be after Me.
I, even I, am the LORD;
and beside Me there is no Saviour.
I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed,
when there was no strange god among you:
therefore ye are My witnesses,
saith the LORD, that I am God.'
(Isa 43:10-12)

* In Acts 1:8, that you refer to, The Lord tells His disciples that they will be witnesses unto Him, 'in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.'

* No, of course believers in the Lord Jesus Christ would not bear testimony to those which are no gods, for there is only one God, and that is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is Jehovah. Who is also the Father of all who believe on the Name of His only Begotten Son, for He has adopted them unto Himself, through Jesus Christ the Lord (Ephesians 1:5-6 ) :-

'Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children
by Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the good pleasure of His will,
To the praise of the glory of His grace,
wherein H'e hath made us accepted in the beloved.
(Eph 1:5-6)

* Yes, God is just and the justifier of him 'which believeth in Jesus' (Romans 3:26). :-

'To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness:
that He might be just,
and the justifier of Him which believeth in Jesus.'

Thank you for your response.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Yes it has maam, and it is elevated above the hills, but of course it is not a literal mountain any more than the city of Jerusalem coming down from heaven.

 

[JohnPaul]

I have another silly question, if the Muslims were to unite all their factions, sunni, Shiite and so forth and try to start another onslaught as they did in the middle ages against the Christians and Jews, hence the formation of the Knights Templar of which my descendants were part of, would all us Christian denominations all of us band together as one, as Christians and fight off this Muslim onslaught as the Templars did?

Or would we just stand by and be slaughtered or forced to convert or as the Muslims put it revert? Because to them we were all Muslims that converted to other religions.

 

[David in NJ]

i know Somebody who is in charge of all foreign and domestic languages, He is also the Chief Heart Surgeon and He said that His Father sends Him the clients through a Special Agent who goes by theses initials = HS7.

Together, the BIG THREE, started a Company called: The Alpha and Omega, also known as The First and the Last

Untwisting, properly using Scripture is what I’ve seen, guided by correctly grasping it for the unitarian Word of God it is.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Complete Jewish Bible

(A:vi, S: v) 4 “Sh’ma, Yisra’el! Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad[Hear, Isra’el! Adonai our God, Adonai is one];

If you only believed Deuteronomy 6:4 you would know the Truth - but this is how God works - he makes the unbelievers declare His Glory

 

[David in NJ]

I rest my case sir

You have to bring forth the Scripture that states JESUS was a 'spirit' before HE came to earth - it does exist.

Here is your Clue - It is in the Gospel and the LORD Himself stated it.

 

[David in NJ]

I have another silly question, if the Muslims were to unite all their factions, sunni, Shiite and so forth and try to start another onslaught as they did in the middle ages against the Christians and Jews, hence the formation of the Knights Templar of which my descendants were part of, would all us Christian denominations all of us band together as one, as Christians and fight off this Muslim onslaught as the Templars did?

Or would we just stand by and be slaughtered or forced to convert or as the Muslims put it revert? Because to them we were all Muslims that converted to other religions.

Unfortunately, i am sure that many 'christians' today would join the World Unity Movement.

 

[Wrangler]

Jehovah is God maam, in fact the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. That is fact or fiction simple as that.

Agreed. An explicit teaching in Scripture. Ephesians 1:3

Brother Kel has many on-line videos that reveal what he calls the trinity delusion. Although I don't use the term Jehovah, I think it is synonymous with YWH or LORD (which my translations use). Trinitarians insistence in violating 1C, 2C, the Sh'ma & Mark 7:13 etc, is something to behold.

Scripture is even explicit that the resurrected Jesus in heaven is not identified as God but received a revelation from God. See Rev 1:1. Jehovah/YWH/LORD is the one and only God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It's so obvious and explicit, only one fully indoctrinated to twist the simple and clear word of God could think any other way. We must pray for them.

 

[amadeus]

Ok, here we go. again Beliefs, Truths, Facts.

I run into this so often. Everything is a grey area.....all scriptures are a matter of interpretation.....there are no solid truths in the scriptures! It is all a matter of interpretation, opinion, and personal beliefs!

This is truly a reflection of social attitudes and values.....An attempt to destroy not only Christianity but also society as a whole. A man walks up to a squad car and shoot the two officers inside.....Well he was just upset. The law is open to interpretation at all levels. Obama justified the Ferguson burnings by saying they were just upset. Taking down the criminal George Floyd justified demonizing the police and the BLM riots that took cities captive, looting, burning, destroying, assaulting, and murdering.....they were just upset! Cuz ya know the law can be interpreted different ways. And now it works its way into biblical understanding. You can sin all you want and still go to Heaven because Christ promised you!

The truth of the matter, most of the scriptures are clear and concise and not open to interpretation. A lot of the topics are defined by word description and actions within the storyline. Most of misinterpretations and false beliefs are from ignorant people, or people that want to impose their beliefs on the scriptures or have an evil agenda. Do you think Yeshua is a God of confusion? Do you believe that He and the Apostles were out to produce 30,000 denominations. This is the kind of thinking that fractured Christ's church. It looks more like guessing than intellectual understanding. The idea that scriptures are open to interpretation is a mockery of the scriptures and God with the real intent to confuse and divide Christianity.

What do you think Paul would say, if someone came up to Him and said, Ya know I think what you are saying is open to interpretation?

You are looking at men's answers and solutions using men's logic. I am simply looking at my answers and solutions from God. You expect me to change? Don't be surprised if I don't. I know that I do not have all of the right answers, but I do believe that God does and if I stay on His side He will provide me with all of the answers I need.

 

[amigo de christo]

Unfortunately, i am sure that many 'christians' today would join the World Unity Movement.

and would do so unto their own demise and destruction . We must simply follow Christ .
This world unity movment honors neither the SON nor the FATHER . It honors the dragon .
Soon the one true gospel will be seen as nothing but divisive and in the way of their unity for world peace and safety .
The churches have no idea what spirits are behind this . Satan indeed can appear as an angel of light
and he has brought this light , which is darkness , right into the supposed house and houses of God .
He is and has been transforming the churches from within . To make ready a religion and a people to serve the beast in this last and final hour
of mankind upon this earth . ITS all building to a massive climatic ending , in which the world and her religoins united as one
shall come full force under the beast and his kings , RIGHT AGAINST the last lambs standing .
This unity they preach is an abomination that will result in total abandonment from the ONLY TRUE GOSPEL BY WHICH MAN CAN BE SAVED .
AND we are RACING right into this last hour .

 

[Grailhunter]

You are looking at men's answers and solutions using men's logic.

Women's too! Christianity is not a stupid religion that teaches it all has to be stupid and never use your head. You have to use your head to read the Bible. Do you read the words and consider what the words mean? Well that is human logic and reasoning....God made it that way. If not the Bible would be a massage and you would feel your way through the Bible.
You do not have to worry if you have the answers, the Bible will have the answers.
And no need to be bashful about speaking up against Klondike beliefs.
Freedom of religion is a wonderful thing and I don't care if they believe that Christ is a Flying Saucer pilot and He is the one that flew all those "J's" back to biblical times so they could be in the KJV. But when they come on the forum and state that it is a biblical fact, I am going to object.

 

[charity]

Jehovah is God maam, in fact the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. That is fact or fiction simple as that.

Hello Robert Gwin,

Why are you repeating back to me, what I myself have said?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

Yes it has maam, and it is elevated above the hills, but of course it is not a literal mountain any more than the city of Jerusalem coming down from heaven.

Replies#358 & #380

Hello @Robert Gwin,

I believe it to be literal.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris