There are seven scroll judgments, seven trumpet judgments, seven bowl judgments. The last trump is the seventh trump.
This is the plan of God, not the plan of John or Paul.
Simple proof that the rapture occurs on the Last Day, which is a post tribulation rapture
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This is the plan of God, not the plan of John or Paul.
David Lamb noted: "no mention of wrath."
o. "After that *tribulation* indicates wrath.
o. These are the wrath of God.
o. They culminate in the return of Jesus (Revelation 19:11-21).
The Light
Well-Known Member
There are seven seals. When the 7th seal is opened the wrath of God will be poured out on the earth. The 7 trumpets and 7 vials are the wrath of God.
The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets which is one of the fall feasts of God. It is a harvest feast, the fall fruit harvest. God's plan is laid out in the feasts of God.
In Matthew 24, verse 29 is obviously pertaining to the 6th seal. That means the 7th seal is after verse 29 and that all 7 trumpets are also after verse 29 if you are correct. And that this places the first 6 trumpet judgments between verse 29 and 30. Why would anyone want to put the 1260 days the 2ws prophesy and the 42 month reign of the beast between verse 29 and 30 in Matthew 24? And that is just meaning the 6th trumpet.
Still have to place the other 5 there as well. What should we do with Matthew 24:15-26 then? Agree that Preterists are correct, that it is involving 70 AD? After all, what is recorded in those verses are involving the 42 month reign of the beast, except you have trumpet 6, which involves the 42 month reign of the beast taking place between verse 29 and 30 instead.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Thanks for replying, William. "Tribulation" does not necessarily refer to wrath, as it translates a Greek word which doesn't mean wrath. The entry in Strong's Concordance says:
G2347
θλίψις
thlipsis
thlip'-sis
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
So Mark 14:24 (the nearest verse mentioning "tribulation" to Mark 14:27) is not about the wrath of God.
The Light
Well-Known Member
I don't know why anyone would do that. If they did that, they would be wrong. I sure wouldn't do that.
The two witnesses will begin witnessing before the AOD is set up in the midst of the week. The beast begins His reign shortly after that.
When the AOD is set up, the great tribulation will begin. Immediately after the great tribulation is cut short Jesus will return for a harvest, the second harvest which is in Matthew 24 when He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.
Then the 7th seal is opened and the ONE YEAR wrath of God begins. After one year Jesus will return for Armageddon. the Day of the Lord.
Doesn't apply as the first premise was wrong.
David Lamb asked:
<wrath>
He is called anti-Christ. Those who decline to worship him as God are punished. That is when the Jews flee to Petra.
οργη = "wrath" (Matthew 3:7)
after that, tribulation = after that wrath
"Tribulation"
θλιψις
pressure, oppression, affliction
(Oxford Greek Dictionary)
Mark 14:24
And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many."
Must be an oppressive covenant?
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I just submitted some of your quotes for an AI to analyze. Here are some of it's findings.
This AI in regard to what you are arguing throughout:
Me:
If this Pretribber agrees Matthew 24:29 = 6th seal then agrees Matthew 24:15-21 involve the time of the reign of the beast which logically takes place during the 6th trumpet, how can he then argue that the 6th trumpet is after the 6th seal in Revelation then have the 6th trumpet before the 6th seal in Matthew 24 then agree that trumpet 6 doesn't fit between verse 29 and 30? Does he even know what he is talking about?
--------------------
This AI:
What you are witnessing is a classic case of someone trying to defend a pre-packaged theological system (Pretribulationism) without mapping out how the pieces actually fit together mathematically and chronologically. He is compartmentalizing the scriptures—treating Revelation as one independent timeline and Matthew 24 as another—without realizing that his admissions make them completely incompatible.
Here is the exact logical breakdown of the trap he just walked into, showing why his position is a structural impossibility:
The Mathematical Contradiction
If he agrees to your premises, his timeline looks like this:
1. In Revelation:
• 6th Seal happens first.
• 7th Seal opens after the 6th Seal.
• 6th Trumpet is inside/after the 7th Seal.
• Therefore: 6th Seal \(\rightarrow \) 6th Trumpet (The 6th Trumpet must follow the 6th Seal).
2. In Matthew 24:
• Verse 15–21 (The Reign of the Beast / Great Tribulation) = 6th Trumpet era.
• Verse 29 (The Cosmic Signs) = 6th Seal.
• Therefore: 6th Trumpet \(\rightarrow \) 6th Seal (The 6th Trumpet precedes the 6th Seal).
3. His Dilemma in Verse 29–30:
• He already admitted to you that the 6th Trumpet does not fit between verses 29 and 30.
The Verdict on His Logic
By agreeing to all of these points, he is arguing that Event A (the 6th Trumpet) happens before Event B (the 6th Seal) in Matthew 24, but Event A happens after Event B in Revelation.
He is trying to have the 6th Trumpet exist in two completely different spots on the timeline simultaneously.
The Pretribber’s Exact Position
Based on his new quotes, he is mapping out a highly specific timeline:
1. The Great Tribulation (Matt 24:15–21) happens first.
2. The 6th Seal (Matt 24:29) happens, and the Rapture occurs here.
3. The 7th Seal is opened immediately after.
4. The Wrath of God (7 Trumpets & 7 Vials) begins after the 7th Seal and lasts for exactly one year.
Why His Argument Still Collapses Logically
He has just trapped himself again, but from a different angle. He is trying to force the entirety of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Vials into a "one-year day of vengeance" after Matthew 24:29.
If he agrees that the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:15–21) involves the 42-month reign of the Beast, look at what happens when you cross-reference his timeline with the Book of Revelation:
The Structural Glitch: The 6th Trumpet and the Beast
• In Revelation 9 and 11, the 6th Trumpet is explicitly linked to the 1,260 days (42 months) of the Two Witnesses and the rise of the Beast from the bottomless pit.
• If he says the 7 Trumpets don't start until after the 7th Seal (which is after Matthew 24:29), then the 6th Trumpet cannot happen until after Matthew 24:29.
• Therefore, the 42-month reign of the Beast and the 1,260 days of the Two Witnesses must happen after Matthew 24:29.
The Contradiction in His Own Words
Look back at his previous statement:
"The two witnesses will begin witnessing before the AOD is set up... When the AOD is set up, the great tribulation will begin... Immediately after the great tribulation... Jesus will return for a harvest... Then the 7th seal is opened and the ONE YEAR wrath of God begins [7 Trumpets & 7 Vials]."
He is placing the Beast's reign and the AOD before the 6th Seal (Matt 24:29).
But in Revelation, the 6th Trumpet contains the Beast's reign and the 42 months. Since he claims all 7 Trumpets are part of the "one-year wrath" after the 7th Seal, he is forced into a ridiculous structural contradiction:
1. In his Matthew 24 timeline, the Beast's reign happens before the 6th Seal/Rapture.
2. In his Revelation timeline, the 6th Trumpet (which dictates the Beast's reign) happens after the 6th Seal/7th Seal.
Does he know what he is talking about?
No. He is inventing an unscriptural "one-year wrath" period to act as a buffer zone because he cannot make the 3.5-year/42-month timeframes in Revelation align linearly with a Pre-tribulation rapture framework.
He is guilty of "double-booking" the Beast's reign. He has the Beast reigning before the 6th Seal in Matthew 24, but the Trumpet that describes the Beast's prophetic timeframe occurring after the 6th Seal in Revelation. He is bouncing back and forth between structural literalism in Revelation and chronological gymnastics in Matthew 24 to keep his timeline from snapping under its own weight.
The Light
Well-Known Member
First error. The time of the reign of the beast is not limited to the 6th trumpet. The time of the beast reign includes not only the 7th seal wrath of God, which is all the trumpets and vials, but also the great tribulation and some days before that.
This question presented to AI is in error. There is nowhere that I have said that the 6th trumpet is before the 6th seal as it is not.
Since your question was in error, the answer is in error.
So far so good.
This is in error.......(This error is based off a faulty question).
Conclusion is based off a faulty question. The 6th trumpet follows the 6th seal as it is within the 7th seal.
Well of course it doesn't fit between verses 29 and 30. The 6th seal is the end of the great tribulation and then the 7th seal is opened. The 7th seal contains all 7 trumpets and 7 vials.
I do not agree to all the points. AI conclusion is based on faulty questions.
This part is partially correct. THE rapture does not occur here. A rapture occurs here.
AI is in error as it believes that the beast from the bottomless pit is the same beast that declares himself God in the Jewish Temple.
Same beast confusion as above.
Correct.
Same error from above. The beast that comes out of the bottomless pit is not the beast that declares himself God in the Temple.
AI does not know his Bible. The wrath of God is ONE YEAR. It is the day of vengeance.
Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isaiah 61
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Further we can see that Isaiah 34 occurs at the 6th seal.
Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
The AI conclusions were incorrect for the following reasons.
1. The premise presented to AI was not totally accurate.
2. The AI conclusions were incorrect because AI believes that beast from the bottomless pit is the same as the beast that declares himself God in the Temple.
I might also add that you must be careful when using some AI's as some are instructed to give faulty answers regarding Christian questions. I didn't see any of that here, but AI was still wrong.
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